The Thirteenth Tribe (nBSG/SG Crossover)

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ba'al in Pegasus. Idjit. Hope the Wraith find and eat him.

That would be an interesting scene. Remember though that Ba'al has no idea the Wraith exist, the Goa'uld didn't even give Pegasus a name, so he has no idea what he's walked into. But this does at least give me a third faction to play with without bringing in the Asuran Replicators or the Ori.

[jayel]

who eats who? Wraith eats human Goa’uld snake jumps to Wraith?

[Sky Captain]

There is a big chance Baal goes undetected for decades if his ships don't encounter Wraith and his new homeworld don't have Stargate. Galaxy is a big place and if counting Hives, cruisers and human ships there are maybe around 1000 FTL capable ships which is pretty much nothing considering billions of stars in a galaxy.

In the series we saw Atlantis fly with one ZPM. They have one ZPM now and probably could get some extra generators from Terra through Stargete to increase available power so it is conceivable they could relocate to another star system while Wraith are gathering fleet. If Wraith loose track of Atlantis their combined fleet is useless without a target and sooner or later would have to split up again making it wulnerable to ambush

Hyperspace jump ramming seems to be effective tactic, if Wraith had attemted sudden massed ramming attack with multiple cruisers it is almost certain some Terran ships would be destroyed. It could be the most combat effective use of cruisers since their little firepower seem to contribute not that much to a battle.

How maneuverable are Battlestars? We see Asgard ships and Daedalus succesfuly engage in tactical maneuvers while Battlestars and Warstar just sit in place and engage in shootout with Hiveships.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'd say there are now 90 Hive Ships and, oh, 500 or so cruisers. 11 ships in Task Force Nemesis, five Ha'taks and however many Traveller ships are out there. Yeah, not a huge number of FTL capable vessels in the galaxy.

The idea of relocating Atlantis is actually part of a pan I'm working up. I'm just deciding how I'm going to set it up without requiring too much of a contrivance, and which one-off idea from SG1 will feature as the big distraction.

I could simply have them find the Attero Device but that's...insufficiently spectacular for my tastes.

Battlestars are fairly agile, obviously less so than Asgard ships or destroyers. Remember the Battle of Terra and Frankies Wild Ride? The reason that they stood there and slugged it out this time is complacency, they figured that Battlestars could stand toe-to-toe with Hive ships and win. Now they know otherwise. The Nemesis is just too damn big to be too agile.

Hyperspace-ramming is indeed effective...but if you try it from too far away you just jump into hyperspace, so you need to get real close, like "half a ship length" close to pull it off. Both sides will now be adjusting tactics accordingly.

[Dass.Kapital]

Hello!

Thoroughly enjoying the read, much bravo!

How much.... 'Industrial capacity' do the Wraith actually have?

Not being terribly well versed in univers cannon (I just liked watching the shows) my question is basically... Where do little Wraith ships come from? (Other than maybe two hive ships rubbing themselves together in that very special way... )

Could the Wraith adapt enough, quickly enough, to produce heavily armored 'Jump torpedoes'?
Minimal to non crewed ships that fly along with the fleet.
Drop out of hypserspace with the fleet and then, once battle with big ships is engaged, fly at the enemy ships with their armor absorbing damage untill 'Ramming speed'?

Still.. is probably too much like the previous comments of 'Specialist' Battle stars with flight pods swapped out for other weapons systems...

... Though that now makes me ask the question... Just how 'Modular' could you make that part of a Battle Star?

Humbly await the next gripping enstallment.

[fnord]

"Gentlemen, lady, drive those battlestars like you stole them".

I wonder how long it will be until microjumps (in-system repositioning, not jump-wtfpwn-jump) become a standard part of TF Nemesis operations?

[Tandrax218]

Why not make the Nemesis jump to the Wraith fleet at her MegaLaserOfDeath range, Pop a shot , start a reload and then just jump somwhere in system for 10 minutes so it recharges ( or what ever the recharge cycleis) and then either one of two options:

1: jump again at same range and blast a ship
2. wait for the long line of fighters and cruisers to close in and then just blow a few dozen of them out of the sky and jump away again

+ repeat until jump drive depleted or enemy fleet dead..

Jump Spaming !

[Eternal_Freedom]

Dass.Kapital: Thanks for the feedback, always good to have more readers. Wraith ships are stated to be grown, and we know they can land on planets, so I would assume big ground-based shipyards/farms that suck up minerals/biomass to use as raw materials - rather like the Tyranids from 40K. Naturally, these would be uninhabited worldsto avoid limiting their human farming system.

As for how quickly Wraith can adapt, In this case probably not fast enough to do what you suggest, though it is a good idea. They have 500 odd cruisers that are of little other value in a fleet action, so swarming/ramming is a more probable tactic.

As for how modular Battlestar flight pods are, not at all. There are simply too many connections/links, both structural and for material/fuel/crew to make them even remotely interchangeable.

Tandrax: Your idea has merit. Nemesis can charge the superlaser in 10 minutes, and the range is such that it can blast ships from considerable range (not demonstrated to date since they've jumped in close to maximise missile/megalaser salvos as well). She can quick-charge the main gun in 3 minutes, but that requires reducing power to other weapons (halving their rate of fire), the shields (halving their strength) and the engines (lowering ship speed/maneuverability). Trying to charge FTL drives and superlaser at once is problematic, even with all the redundant generators.

Playing sniper is a good idea, but you simply can't fire more than, oh, five shots from the superlaser in quick succession without risking serious damage tot he weapon, it's cooling systems and the main generators.

[Sky Captain]

Nemesis superlaser seems a bit wasteful, it is far too powerful for most targets, Hiveships are among the strongest ships in SG verse yet they got vaporized which is massive overkill. If it could fire a less powerful shot that just cause breakup or total mission kill and shoot say every 2 minutes it would be more effective, essentially choose higher rate of fire, but less powerful shots. Only things that may really require full power shot to kill in SG verse are Anubis battleship and ZPM augmented Hive that nearly took out Atlantis.

I'd say bomber strike was very effective, it took out 2 Hives and damaged other 2, without any looses. A very good result from craft not much bigger than a fighter. Ton per ton they are most effective human ships when using jump shoot jump tactic. More bombers instead of fighters would significantly increase firepower of whole task force.

Another possibility while Wraith are assembling their fleet is to use fast Asgard ships to try to find and destroy some Wraith ground bases which now are undefended.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The superlaser wasn't built to fight Wraith ships, and yes it is a tad wasteful. It was buitl as a "we've got this huge volume and power reserves available, let's see how big a gun we can build." Yeah, one-shot-vaporising Hives is wasteful, it did the same to a sixty cubic-km iron/nickel asteroid. It also serves as a useful test: if they come across something the superlaser can't kill on one hit, they know they're in real trouble.

It's a big yes to more bomber strikes, though they too are wasteful. In the last ambush, one 20-strong squadron targeted each Hive ship, dumping 240 missiles at it with ten-megaton warheads. Even with little warning many were shot down, and the Nemesis doesn't carry endless numbers of missiles either. And these are already naquada-enhanced warheads, they basically took Colonial-style 10-20 kiloton tactical warheads and bumped them up to 10-megaton yield.

Targeting ground bases is a sound move and will be explored, but Jellicoe is looking for a short, decisive action that will annihilate the Wraith, or at least break them militarily. He knows he simply cannot win a war of attrition here.

[Sky Captain]

Replenishing missile stores should be relatively easy through Stargate from Olympus base if there aren't some other production bottlenecks to fabricate small high performance warheads in massive numbers.

If Atlantis can get off the planet then Wraith aren't much of a threat. Wraith combined fleet can't stay together forever if it can't find Atlantis. Sooner or later it will have to split up and then it is vulnerable to attack.

[Eternal_Freedom]

You're right about the splitting up part, but all that does is draw the conflict out. Remember the earlier discussion about how the Tau'ri and the Colonials (and sort-of the Terrans) are different to other species: we fight wars to win, as quickly and painlessly as possible, and that's what Jellicoe is hoping for here, an idea that lets them win, not just survive.

And yeah there are some bottlenecks: namely, refined weapons-grade naquada and uranium/plutonium. The Terran system has a lot of raw naquada out int he asteroid belt that Tartarus Base is extracting (amongst other things) but they never had the need to refine a lot of weapons-grade stuff, right up until the Battle of Terra, which was only 3 months ago, so production capacity is not ramping up quickly. The same is true of the fissile material: since they don't use uranium reactors for power, they just don't have lots of U-235 or Pu-239 sitting around to turn into bombs.

[fnord]

I suspect part of Nemesis' overall role is a fleet-in-being (a la Tirpitz in WW2), combined with the fondness for a good banger previously displayed by the Kobolian mob.

I also doubt, given its deployment constraints, that the superlaser would be used casually - Grappler, Fireman, et al, would only get to cry havoc when there's targets that merit letting rip with it. Beyond the spinal superlaser, Nemesis still has all three classes of guns mounted on the Lionheart-class battlestars, just a heck of a lot more of each class. Nemesis' secondary batteries are mega-lasers in turrets - the primary batteries of the battlestars, albeit in fixed mounts.

Yes, more of O'Neill's beloved big honking space guns. And a case of More Dakka, to boot.

As E_F has said, a prolonged war of attrition plays into Wraith hands in at least two ways. First, they've simply got waaay more kit, can afford to make correspondingly more mistakes, and can chuck cruisers at annoying human-crewed vessels. Second, such a prolonged war also lets them refine their operational and tactical skills - and they're already starting from a higher base than the Cylons.

Frinstance, the narration specifically called out Wraith convoy tactics (iirc) as buggering up fields of fire for their heavy ships - how much different would Frankie's Wild Ride, round 2, have been if the Wraith ships could have freely used all weapons that could bear, without (too much) regard for fratricide?

[Tandrax218]

Is there any way of doing a "suicide bomb truck" plan with some ships ?

Take some ship, lets say a large hauller, fill it with naquad and set it to jum in the middle of wraith formation, and set the detonation at 0,5 seconds after jump is completed....

Im guessing that 2000 tons of refined weapons grade naquad can blow at least 50 hive ships in one go if they are close enough...
or not ..
But if answer is "no" then just Pump up the volume of naguad

[fnord]

Fond of a good banger yourself? That's quite understandable.

I admire the ingenuity, but pose some questions logistical:

0. What is the opportunity cost of that plan? What else could be done with resources, time, transport capacity, etc that Operation Wet Firecracker would take? In light of existing strategic constraints and preferences (such as the forced preference for high optionality value in hulls), which alternative(s) would be more acceptable? It's not like the Kobolian mob have limitless supplies of finished weaponry at hand.
1. Where is the raw naquada/tylium coming from for Operation Wet Firecracker?
2. How is the raw material getting to the facility or facilities refining it into weapons-grade?
3. How is the refined material going to be packaged, weaponised and thence transported to TF Nemesis for use in Operation Wet Firecracker?
4. Now, finally, we get to tactics (which aren't much value without the logistics to support and enable it) - how would that surprise package be employed to be a greater threat to the Wraith nomfleet than TF Nemesis?

[Tandrax218]

ok i get what you are saying, its hard to make a huge "bomb truck" type attack - finding the resources and the optimal way of delivery....

[fnord]

I made no judgement either way on the technical possibility of Operation Wet Firecracker - the Geezer Trap had gigatonne-yield mines. What I was asking was, in light of other stuff going on, and the constraints that us omniscient readers know that the Kobolian mob (Lethbridge-Stewart, Adama Senior, et al) are working under, is how far would OWF get?

For example, how many heavy anti-ship missiles would not get built due to resource demands of OWF?
How long would naquada refining facilities be tied up? How does that refining constraint impact homeworld protection patrols from Lionheart and the Challenger destroyers?
How much transport capability would OWF's payload need to get to Pegasus?
What kit has to be left behind to get OWF's payload through?
Will it convince The Moustache?

[fnord]

Standing alone, Tandrax, your bomb ketch idea sounds somewhat reasonable. I hope I've managed to illuminate some of the far less sexier factors that constrain it.

Keep doing my trick - throw enough stuff out, and E_F will nick the good ones and disappear over the horizon with them.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The "bomb truck" idea does have some merit, and is (broadly speaking) similar to what I'm working on as The Ultimate Plan (TM) but as fnord pointed out, there are problems. Consider that a relatively small amount of refined naquada is used in each heavy anti-ship missile (like, maybe twenty kilos at most), which they're already struggling to produce enough off...where the hell would a thousand tonnes come from? By the time they have that much ready to go TF Nemesis (and Atlantis) will have been overrun and the Big Damn Bomb will only be useful as a taking-you-with-me thing when the Wraith arrive over Terra.

[Gerald Tarrant]

The "bomb truck" idea does have some merit, and is (broadly speaking) similar to what I'm working on as The Ultimate Plan (TM) but as fnord pointed out, there are problems.

Maybe not one big explosive, but use the suicide ship as a hyperspace missile bus. Load the ship down with as much external ordinance as the thing can carry. Jump, then flush the missile racks, then have a primitive AI target the nearest cruiser scale target for ramming. If you have access to obsolete or derelict hulls with jump drives, you've essentially created a hyperspace MIRV. As a one off it might pick off a few cruisers, but in large numbers you could use it to prep the battlefield, or harass Wraith formations that are trying to regenerate hull damage. Long term, you probably build a custom hull and cheap drive to serve as the warhead bus. Sadly the current option doesn't seem to allow enough time for the best long term solutions to come on line.

The other interesting option seems to be having the suicide ship carry a bunch of hyperspace drives that function just like missiles. Have your ship jump in, pick targets, then have the missiles accelerate to SGC-verse hyperspace and smack into the target like a relativistic kill vehicle might. Your missiles are much more expensive, as they need an FTL drive, but if the Wraith kill and eat you, it's not like you care how effectively you managed your GDP.

[Edit] Changed a sentence for some clarification[/edit]

[Eternal_Freedom]

When I said it was "broadly speaking" similar to The Ultimate Plan (TM), I meant very broadly. Jellicoe, Davies, Wallace, O'Neill, Carter and McKay are thinking...bigger

[Gerald Tarrant]

When I said it was "broadly speaking" similar to The Ultimate Plan (TM), I meant very broadly. Jellicoe, Davies, Wallace, O'Neill, Carter and McKay are thinking...bigger

Track the main Wraith fleet after it consolidates and starts moving, and supernova a sun at one of their stop off points?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Not quite, but that's about the right scale

[fnord]

Hell, is Carter going to call it, I dunno, the Star Trigger or something?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well, during the first meeting with SG1 and the Kobolians, she did say they were working on names for things