The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Nuts!]

Just my $.02 on the cover:

People judge books by their covers, and they don't take too long to judge. I didn't realize that the dots were bullet holes, and if people see the book in a bookstore or as a thumbnail online, I bet they won't either.

Someone earlier recommended a picture of an F-16 on a red background. I'd second that for a couple reasons: a) it's recognizable, b) it looks very little like the whole Left Behind series (and when people see the title, they will think of the LB series, even with the question mark), and c) it doesn't automatically match with the book's title.

When you see a zombie-ish book, you expect to see blood. Romance, ppl kissing. Mystery, a blurred picture. If you see a book about Armageddon, though, you don't expect to see military aircraft. That, in turn, makes you more likely to read the blurb on the back of the book (which is a Good Thing, at least in general).

Again, just IMHO

[LadyTevar]

Nuts has a point. I find new authors and series by seeing a book cover that interests me, then read the blurb.

You really need something on the cover that's going to stand out more, Stuart.

[Junghalli]

If you have a good enough cover artist maybe you could do the bombing of Satan's palace, with demons watching as it blows up and an aircraft visible above. That nicely gets across the general kind of thing that's going to be in the book and it might attract my attention if I saw it on the shelf.

[Chris OFarrell]

I have this memory of a picture someone posted in one of the Armegedon threads, it was a 'CNN Live' sort of picture with a bunch of soliders and an M1 looking like they were in downtown Baghdad...fighting a huge Demon.

If someone could repost it, I have to say that something along those lines would be PERFECT for the cover of this book, done well.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Awesome idea for an artillery system:

On one end you have a cannon mounted onto a ceiling affixed to fire directly down. Below it is a portal generator with a dial a destination system, since it's already been said that DIMO(N) is making further research into portal generation technology that doesn't require Nephilim. This would also work for bombs.

As for DEMO(N) being disbanded, I don't think so. America has the greatest edge in portal generation technologies and will need that edge in the wars to come due to the unprecedented maneuverability portals give armies.

Which brings me to another point, will the revelation of other bubbles cause America to desire a one-world government in order to establish Earth as the decisive hegemon in the new level of 'the game'?

[CaptainChewbacca]

As for DEMO(N) being disbanded, I don't think so. America has the greatest edge in portal generation technologies and will need that edge in the wars to come due to the unprecedented maneuverability portals give armies.

DIMO(N) isn't being disbanded in the way you think. The separate programs will go off on their own and do well, but without the war there's no longer the need for a central authority calling all the shots.

[Edward Yee]

As for DEMO(N) being disbanded, I don't think so. America has the greatest edge in portal generation technologies and will need that edge in the wars to come due to the unprecedented maneuverability portals give armies.

You sure there's an edge, other than in 'experience with them'? On Earth, I can't see any threat to the HEA that wouldn't come from within...

Which brings me to another point, will the revelation of other bubbles cause America to desire a one-world government in order to establish Earth as the decisive hegemon in the new level of 'the game'?

Depends on what's defined as "one-world government," seeing as Earth effectively had that during the events of Pantheocide (moreso than in Armageddon?), with some cracks of course such as the various SOGs and the veneer of a "council"...

[ray245]

I have this memory of a picture someone posted in one of the Armegedon threads, it was a 'CNN Live' sort of picture with a bunch of soliders and an M1 looking like they were in downtown Baghdad...fighting a huge Demon.

If someone could repost it, I have to say that something along those lines would be PERFECT for the cover of this book, done well.

Is this the one you are talking about?

[wickeddyno]

Is this the one you are talking about?

IMAGE

Oooh, that would be perfect for the cover, or maybe a wrap-around for the entire jacket. Take off the CNN-ish ticker at the bottom, though, and put the title there. Or maybe commission a similar drawing but with a smaller, more humanoid demon.

As for one-world government, the biggest obstacles to that, American Christian Fundamentalists, are all either dead or deconverted.

[Simon_Jester]

Any who somehow managed to survive... well, the obvious answer to any objections they might have is:

"Bowls of Wrath? Been there, done that. Vicious monsters from Hell? They came, they saw, we conquered. Giant beasts with the head of a lamb or whatever? Killed them too. Satan ruling the Earth? Fat chance, we blew his head off with a fricking cruise missile.

"Seriously, what's the worst that can happen? We already had the Apocalypse. It was kind of an anticlimax."

EDIT: Also, I think I agree with the others talking about the cover. The current cover art is decent, but could definitely be improved by making it into a more dramatic expression of the theme. Something that gives the reader a sense of that "holy fuck we're committing deicide and it's awesome" sense we get while blowing up Satan's palace or cutting the Angel of Death to pieces with a laser or whatever.

[GrayAnderson]

Is this the one you are talking about?

IMAGE

Oooh, that would be perfect for the cover, or maybe a wrap-around for the entire jacket. Take off the CNN-ish ticker at the bottom, though, and put the title there. Or maybe commission a similar drawing but with a smaller, more humanoid demon.

As for one-world government, the biggest obstacles to that, American Christian Fundamentalists, are all either dead or deconverted.

You'd have scattered nationalists all around, but I'd actually say that this war isn't unlike the two invasions that served as the catalyst for such a government in Ender's Game. Not to mention that there is a very big issue with allowing any "rogue states" to exist, not to mention virtually no way for governments to stop the free flow of people and/or goods around the border short of universal portal detection systems...and even those would probably be marginally useful at best until we manage to also get detection systems in place in Heaven, Hell, and any Bubbleverses. After all...does anyone think that the drug cartels down in South America wouldn't drop a couple of million dollars to be able to direct-ship cocaine and whatnot into New York City or LA?

[Edward Yee]

That's the cover I was thinking of, and I'm surprised that organized crime hadn't had its hand in the portal business as far back as Armageddon?, even if such a shut-out was through ferocious (possibly murderous) restriction of access to its workings...

[Ilya Muromets]

I have this memory of a picture someone posted in one of the Armegedon threads, it was a 'CNN Live' sort of picture with a bunch of soliders and an M1 looking like they were in downtown Baghdad...fighting a huge Demon.

If someone could repost it, I have to say that something along those lines would be PERFECT for the cover of this book, done well.

Is this the one you are talking about?
*SNIPPY SNIP SNIPPAGE*

While that would make for an awesome cover, I don't think Stuart can use that. For one, it may not be for public domain use. For another, I don't think there's a demon -- at least not one of the more animalistic Beasts -- even approaching that size in the story.

Then again, covers have been known to be highly misleading about stuff depicted in the book (Baen book covers cometo mind), and that would certainly be eye-catching.

[Nematocyst]

The Behemoth Heralds were that big, I think.

The best imagery IMO comes from the Battle of Hit. There were ideas about this, and they would look awesome and eye-catching on a cover.

[ray245]

I don't think the Baen book covers really did justice to some of the novels. Baen books covers tends to be too flashy and give me the idea that the story is extremely cheesy.

EDIT: If anyone is interested in finding out who's the artist, you can find his profile at deviantart. The title of the picture is entitled 21st century warfare.

http://p0p5.deviantart.com/


His art on a demon invasion of modern earth
http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&secti ... e#/d1qqu0f

http://p0p5.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d1o2t7n

Another artist depiction of modern army fighting demons.

http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&secti ... e#/d1qw65d

[CaptainChewbacca]

That's the cover I was thinking of, and I'm surprised that organized crime hadn't had its hand in the portal business as far back as Armageddon?, even if such a shut-out was through ferocious (possibly murderous) restriction of access to its workings...

The knowledge and technology behind portal generation is INCREDIBLY restricted. When it was discovered, there were probably fewer than 100 people world-wide who could open portals, and none could do it without $100 million in equipment.

Now that targeting machinery exists, it may fall into public domain, but it is impossible to open a portal anywhere near a cell phone tower without it immediately being detected, localized, and logged on the national defense grid. Portals cannot function as a covert insertion/extraction mechanism, only as brute force for assault or transport.

[Edward Yee]

Alternate method of "slipping drugs/assassins through supply boxes that would be transiting through a portal" I would hope is also restricted...

[Seggybop]

As a designer, the proposed cover design gives me a terrible case of that "nails on chalkboard" feeling. Conceptually good, but the execution is kind of reminiscent of an English major trying to build a rocket engine =/ open_sketchbook already had a good description of some of the issues with the composition. If I have some extra time after work today, I'll make a mockup to illustrate.

Something based on that image from deviantart would also look quite pro, but it'd probably be difficult to get permission to use it. Creating a new illustration along the lines of the Battle of Hit shouldn't be infeasible, though....

[Ilya Muromets]

Well, I knocked together something on Photoshop from public domain images. But I dunno if it's interesting enough to be a cover.

Thumbnail:

[Chris OFarrell]

I have this memory of a picture someone posted in one of the Armegedon threads, it was a 'CNN Live' sort of picture with a bunch of soliders and an M1 looking like they were in downtown Baghdad...fighting a huge Demon.

If someone could repost it, I have to say that something along those lines would be PERFECT for the cover of this book, done well.

Is this the one you are talking about?
*SNIPPY SNIP SNIPPAGE*

While that would make for an awesome cover, I don't think Stuart can use that. For one, it may not be for public domain use. For another, I don't think there's a demon -- at least not one of the more animalistic Beasts -- even approaching that size in the story.

Then again, covers have been known to be highly misleading about stuff depicted in the book (Baen book covers cometo mind), and that would certainly be eye-catching.

Well I wasn't thinking that he USE said cover, as I'm sure it belongs to someone who might disagree with that.

But something ALONG those lines.

Perhaps that bit at the opening of the Battle of Hit, with the fire team bunkered down inside a building on the outskirts, with the POV 'us' looking out at the black tide of Baldricks marching towards them, the first morter explosions puffing up in the middle of the hoard and tracers reaching out towards them...

Or something along said lines.

Or perhaps overlaying a 'HUD' of sorts on a picture of a demonic hoard marching forward...

[CaptainChewbacca]

Or perhaps overlaying a 'HUD' of sorts on a picture of a demonic hoard marching forward...

This. Exactly this. Abigor's first charge out of the Gate.

[Stuart]

I'm certainly prepared to consider alternate suggestions (although the existing cover looks a lot better full size than the downsized version here though). However, any cover offering that uses pictures MUST - repeat MUST - use pictures that are public domain. That includes "modified" pictures. This is the real problem; the public domain requirement rules out vast stretches of pictures. For example, pretty much the only ones of military equipment we can use come out of the US Government (all USG publications are public domain. That does not apply to other countries).

I agree one can do a lot better, the only problem is I end up in jail for copyright infringement.

[ray245]

Does anyone has any idea on how much does it cost to commission a new cover design?

[Ilya Muromets]

I'm certainly prepared to consider alternate suggestions (although the existing cover looks a lot better full size than the downsized version here though). However, any cover offering that uses pictures MUST - repeat MUST - use pictures that are public domain. That includes "modified" pictures. This is the real problem; the public domain requirement rules out vast stretches of pictures. For example, pretty much the only ones of military equipment we can use come out of the US Government (all USG publications are public domain. That does not apply to other countries).

I agree one can do a lot better, the only problem is I end up in jail for copyright infringement.

Well, the A-10 pics in mine were from http://www.af.mil/, and the tanks are from this. It said those were official photos released to the public. The "harpies" were bats from a pic which mentioned that it was free for public distribution, though I'm having trouble finding the source now since I found it only after several pages of a Google image search. The volcano was a USGS pic of a volcano.

The only thing I'm uncertain about is that fort in the background, so I guess I'll have to change that should you consider using it.

[Erra]

I'm certainly prepared to consider alternate suggestions (although the existing cover looks a lot better full size than the downsized version here though). However, any cover offering that uses pictures MUST - repeat MUST - use pictures that are public domain. That includes "modified" pictures. This is the real problem; the public domain requirement rules out vast stretches of pictures. For example, pretty much the only ones of military equipment we can use come out of the US Government (all USG publications are public domain. That does not apply to other countries).

I agree one can do a lot better, the only problem is I end up in jail for copyright infringement.

Easily solved by having someone draw the cover. The number of drawn or computer rendered covers I see in bookstores compared to the number of irl photo covers is like 1000:1 so its not like it'd be hard to do. There are many people out there who's JOB it is to design and draw cover art. It might cost a little bit more now, but it would pay off huge if you have a design that people actually gravitate to. A quick glance at the current cover makes me think it would be for some crazy pseudo-religious cult, or a bitchy tirade on the ridiculousness of religions, neither of which would make me want to pick the book up. I think your best bet is to find some artists who do covers for science-fiction books and work from there.

Red and black absolutely has to go though. Painful to look at.

Edit: Something else, after re-looking at the designs from the previous books you've got on Amazon (The Big One, The Great Game, Crusade!, etc.) they all look too simplistic, and honestly, too noobish (for lack of a better term) for anyone who hasn't already read the story to want to pick up. They all look like cheap photoshoppings and so does this one. You need a pro to make cover art that is just as good as the novels those covers contain.