EU Fic: Prequel Trilogy Era

[Darth Hoth]

If the Republic has no say in how the Jedi are run, why the Jedi be allowed to arrest, destroy the property and livelihood of, harass, investigate, harm, or even kill Republic citizens? They have to be granted that power by the state, and it should be subject to checks and accountability. Jedi who abuse their powers should be investigated, arrested, prosecuted, and punished themselves.

Agreed; the Jedi might rule their own territories, but within the Republic they should be subject to its laws (and though those might be written to give them some leeway, it should not be a blank cheque for any behaviour). I suspect the Republic might find it convenient to let the Jedi handle their own misfits for the most part (both for maintaining good relations and because it might be troublesome for mere mortals to apprehend and sentence a wankmonster of upper-limit Jedi proportions), but this should then be decided on a case-by-case basis in negotiation between the Jedi and the Republic; those guilty of severe crimes, such as Ulic Qel-Droma, would be tried by the Republic itself.

[Admiral Felire]

Being beholden to certain aspects of Republic Law is one thing, but being beholden to the laws of individual planets, I am not so sure of. I think their general independence should preclude that.

And Darth Raptor, its been a very long while since I read Star by Star, I forget what sorts of weapons and techniques they used in that book. Could you explain, I don't feel like getting that book out.

[Darth Raptor]

Basically, Anakin and a bunch of other Jedi nublets go in armed to the teeth. Yes, they've got their lightsabers, but they've also got body armor, heavy blasters, repeaters, grenades and WAR DROIDS. And they fuck shit up. Yes, that was because of the Vong and their "lol superconducting crabshell armor" and "lolz you can't sense us in the Force" HAX but they still ruined their day. This is what a strike team of Jedi Knights should look like.

[Darth Hoth]

Did anyone have thoughts about this? Hoth? Raptor?

Jedi should fight organically in the armed forces. Look at Luke in the Alliance. He's a great pilot, so they put him in a squadron on important missions. He does even better, so he leads a squadron of aces for special purposes and the hardest missions. He's a great irregular combatant, so they let him go with the Solo mission to Endor's surface.

Jedi who're superb soldiers should do what our superb soldiers do, go into dangerous special forces applications. They should do infiltration, sabotage, recon, search and rescue, assasinations, renditions of the greatest risk. Or if they are good at leadership, they should command forces like any other general. If they are particularly good as predicting the future, they should work with intel in advising officers. If they are particularly good at mentalic influence, they should serve as a sophisticated command and communications mechanism for a commanding officer (C'boath to Thrawn). If they're superbly talented, maybe they can do a bunch of the same. What they shouldn't do is fight on the front line in standard maneuver warfare, where they make little difference and are too likely to be killed by heavy weaponry. They should especially not do it while also commanding troops. If they do fight directly, it shouldn't be idiotically bringing a sword to a gunfight, it should be because their direct and blunt Force abilities are godlike. If they're like Palpatine and can wreck flotillas with their thoughts, sure. If they're like Palpatine and can kill many people from afar with a thought, fine. If they're like Luke and can crush walkers with a thought, fine. But they shouldn't mix these situations and abilities and characteristics where it isn't context appropriate.

No arguments there; it fits with my concept of them. I might, as I mentioned above, consider them having their own exclusively Jedi-led armies, but those would not be part of the ordinary Republic hierarchy, and their leaders should still be trained officers, if we go by Raptor's idea of differentiated Jedi duties (and I see no idea why we should not).

A question, though: How do you imagine the Jedi wrecking shit purely with the Force? Snapping AT-ATs in half, throwing ISDs, that sort of thing? What power level are you thinking of for the "average" McJedi? Still superhero-like?

A lightsaber and a suit of light armor is fine for what a Jedi normally does; i.e., traveling the galaxy, writing wrongs and generally playing the hero.

Warfare is a whole different animal. When Jedi go into battle, it shouldn't be like the Clone Wars cartoon where they DID joust with big old lances while riding speeder bikes, it should be like the mission to Myrkr in Star by Star. I love that book so hard.

That would be part of it. (And yes, I too loved that book, though some things were far-fetched; it was the epic/tragic feeling, I guess.) Jedi could serve as officers, but then they would do so on strictly military merits, and presumably not as platoon leaders. Special operations is definitely in their field of work.

[Admiral Felire]

Thanks Darth Raptor, I appreciate the explanation. I also agree that Star by Star was a good book. I am sad that they had to kill Anakin, he was a great character.

But, at least they still had their lightsabers. Which was pretty much my point. Yes, they wear armor (why shouldn't they, as long as the armor does not impede movement) and yes they can use other weapons, but they are probably more used to using their lightsabers in most battle situations.

==

By the way, I also agree with the huge paragraph you copied from Primus, Hoth. I don't have a problem with Jedi Generals leading from the front, and doing all that Primus said, I just think that they also lead from the front sometiems. Maybe its not in the same battles, maybe its after they give up direct management during that particular battle, but still, they are trained to fight from the front as well.

There are things that a Jedi do very well, and I think that if a Jedi General realizes that if he does it personally then success might be easier, he might consider doing it personally. Then he would function as a small team, maybe of infiltrators.

Darth Hoth, I also like the idea of there being strictly Jedi Armies. The Clone Troopers would be the main fighters but it would be led by Jedi. Their could also be small team of Jedi fighters working together under their own command.

Using this idea we then have the Galactic Republic having to methods of fighting - the Jedi Forces and the Regular Forces. The Jedi Forces would be led by Jedi, and manned by both Jedi and Clones. The Regular Forces would have some Jedi Admirals and Generals but they would mostly be regular troops (both Clone and not) and regular non-Force officers.

I think it would be a nice bit of irony if the Regular Forces became the Imperial Army and Navy and the Jedi Forces became the Imperial Stormtrooper (i.e. Imperial Marines). It would once again be an attempt by Palpatine to make policy at the expense of the ancient traditions. Like the modifications of the Sword and Shield thing, the defamation of the Jedi Symbol, and other aspects that he did.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I disagree with the Jedi having their own army. I don't want to take the crusader analog that far. I think its more interesting to have Jedi who joined the Republic's armed forces and serve as officers or liaisons or soldiers like anyone according to their ability (which is extraordinary). You could explore the issue of pacifist or non-interventionist Jedi versus patriot and militaristic Jedi, politically. I wouldn't mind some Jedi Masters and Jedi who are also old aristocrats or patriots using their money and/or fame and/or influence and/or charisma to build ad hoc private armies or warrior groups. I'm thinking something more like the NJO's Dozen-and-Two writ-large. Or something like that Preastilyn novel's pro-Republic paramilitary. More like a knight or lord's retinue than a sophisticated armed service or state into itself.

As for the average Jedi, I don't believe they should be able to do what Palpatine does. But I don't have a problem with above average Jedi being able to crush walkers at a distance. If you really think about it, how useful would that really be in most circumstances? Its not going to be a game changer. There's going to be many walkers, no one said feats like that wouldn't be exhausting. And they're armed with energy weapons with megaton yields and with ranges as far as line-of-sight will go. Relatively speaking Palpatine's high-end feats may seem extreme, but if you really think about it relative to scale, its not so bad. No one said he could tear up fleet after fleet all day with no fatigue or stress. And its literally nothing for SW to pour fleets like that into the grinder. I'm still working out how the Jedi should work and what their power and influence ought to be and come from, and why they are so influential.

[Admiral Felire]

I disagree with the Jedi having their own army. I don't want to take the crusader analog that far. I think its more interesting to have Jedi who joined the Republic's armed forces and serve as officers or liaisons or soldiers like anyone according to their ability (which is extraordinary).

I think it would be nice if the Jedi did not have an Army before the Clone Wars but that they eventually did create their own. Like I said the fact that this army could later on be the nucleus of the Stormtroopers would be an interesting feature of the setting. One that is intriguing.

But I do think that the Jedi Force should be less numerous, and yet more powerful, than the Republic Force. The Republic Force should be much more numerous in size but not as powerful because of a lack of that many Jedi in their service. Some Jedi would join the Jedi Force while others would join the Republic Force.

I wouldn't mind some Jedi Masters and Jedi who are also old aristocrats or patriots using their money and/or fame and/or influence and/or charisma to build ad hoc private armies or warrior groups. I'm thinking something more like the NJO's Dozen-and-Two writ-large. Or something like that Preastilyn novel's pro-Republic paramilitary. More like a knight or lord's retinue than a sophisticated armed service or state into itself.

I agree with this.

As for the average Jedi, I don't believe they should be able to do what Palpatine does. But I don't have a problem with above average Jedi being able to crush walkers at a distance. If you really think about it, how useful would that really be in most circumstances? Its not going to be a game changer. There's going to be many walkers, no one said feats like that wouldn't be exhausting. And they're armed with energy weapons with megaton yields and with ranges as far as line-of-sight will go. Relatively speaking Palpatine's high-end feats may seem extreme, but if you really think about it relative to scale, its not so bad. No one said he could tear up fleet after fleet all day with no fatigue or stress. And its literally nothing for SW to pour fleets like that into the grinder. I'm still working out how the Jedi should work and what their power and influence ought to be and come from, and why they are so influential.

I agree with this point. Palpatine is in a class of his own, not equalled by pretty much anybody (with one or two exceptions, as there always are). I also agree that other Jedi are not sloutches either when it comes to using the Force for highly powerful actions. It is stated that the power of the death star was less than the power of the Force, and I think we should keep to that general concept. I also agree that there are more ships and vehicles then their are Jedi, and that given time a Jedi (or Sith or whatever) will tire out if they use their really high level abilities. A Jedi might be able to dodge out of the way of one turbolaser blast, but if a dozen are firing upon him then the chance gets so much smaller.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm drafter up a briefer, TNOiP analog outline summarizing the long-term characteristics and entities in the Old Republic.

[Illuminatus Primus]

THE GALACTIC REPUBLIC

The Galactic Republic was selected as “the name of the political manifestation of the preexisting social, societal, international, and interstate community and union of galactic civilization” (Article I of the Constitution). Commonly referred to as the "Galactic Union" in most modern translations, this is a somewhat crude rendition of the Old Wukkaran reijck, meaning something between "realm," "nation," "polity," and "union," and generally the transcendent body politic; many translations avoid this problem by leaving it simply the "Galactic Reijk." An alternative term found in contemporaneous documents was the Olys Corellisi rseczpospolita (compare to the Old Coruscanti rez publika, and Old Alderaanian calque comunne weal). Over time this distinction became academic and purely legal-technical; "the Galaxy" unambiguously in non-astronomical contexts referred to the society or civilization as a whole, and even "Galactic Republic" or "the Republic" itself became informal to refer to the Galactic Union or the body politic (or even, by co-extension, the astronomical galaxy itself as well) in a general sense, without the specific connotations of the federal political apparatus. People speaking of "the Republic" spoke of the galactic society as a whole, where the metonym "Coruscant" spoke of the political apparatus.

Foundation and Introduction

Historians debate the beginnings of the Republic, suggesting that it is artificial to claim the date of a legal document which hardly changed the reality of politics and society overnight misses the point of answering the question - where did the Republic come from? However, the point stands that the Constitution of the Galactic Republic was ratified on 24,965 BrS. It established in law, the fundamental institutions of the Galactic Republic, namely the Republic Authority, the Supreme Court of the Galactic Republic, and the Senate of the States of the Galactic Republic in Congress Assembled.

The Senate of the States of the Galactic Republic in Congress Assembled

The Senate had long-standing pre-Republic origins in common interstellar institutions, alliances, and councils. The United States of the Inner Regions, the Galactic Community Organization, and the Core Union were all well-known antecedents to the Republic, and their deliberative bodies of senators, ambassadors, and members of parliament were the ancestors of the Senate (traces of this can be still found, with the usage of "senator" for the delegates of the Union's sovereign states, who rank as ambassadors, and for whom many conventions and procedures are derived from Union parliamentary practice). The Senate of the States of the Galactic Republic in Congress Assembled, formally speaking, rarely met. Composed of over a million senators throughout most its history, day-to-day meetings of this body would have been unwieldy and unnecessary. Rather, the Great Powers - those "ancient masses of hard and soft power nestled comfortably at the centers of huge constellations of territory and influence," as neatly summarized by Dr. Yinqo Lamont in The New Order in Power - nominated senators which would acquire the support of other senators, who would lend them their votes (the so-called "votes-by-proxy"), allowing them to individually represent whole sectors or regions (it should not be misconstrued that all Voting Members or Powers were necessarily Great Powers, with the most notable case being that of the first Galactic Emperor’s senatorial constituency of the Kingdom of Naboo). This process of informally and essentially electing a presidium of itself allowed the Senate to compress its working membership on a day-to-day basis to between one to ten thousand "senior senators" (depending on the historical period and circumstances). Though denounced by many of the lesser states as a mere stage show to conceal rule by the powerful and well-connected - which certainly was not completely unfair, especially during crisis and the brief authoritarian storms of Republic history - the relationship between most Voting Powers' and their Senior Senators on one hand, and between their Lesser State and Junior Senator clienteles on the other, was hardly one-sided. The Lesser States, through their Junior Senators, successfully traded their votes-by-proxy amongst Senior Senator's delegations, and were capable of denying a Voting Power's Senior Senator from being seated by withdrawing sufficient support (constitutional conventions in the Senate mandated that a Senior Senator maintain basic confidence by his supporters). Reflecting this practice and the legal name for the body, though technically incorrect, "Congress" began to refer to the entire body, and "the Senate" to the working minority of Senior Senators.

The Senate was considered the highest organ of government. Indeed, upon the Republic’s founding, a loud minority of Founders, the so-called Anarchy Worlds - distrusted any attempt to divest the legislature of direct authority. The Anarchy Plan (as it was named by a polemic by famous Federalist and constitutional theorist Dr. Publius Hamiltoni) called for the a Senate which would be vested with ultimate and direct authority in legislative, executive, and judicial affairs. The Federalist faction succeeded in winning over the great majority with claims that this “confusion of powers” and lack of permanent independent government would “leave the state without a head.” Accordingly, the Senate ended up occupying only the supreme legislative role, but remained the dominant party at the apex of the Republic. The Supreme Chancellor had to both be elected to fix terms, and also maintain the confidence of the Senate during his terms. The Government had to be responsible to the Senate, and all senior appointments had to be subject to Senatorial scrutiny and confirmation (some appointments, like those of diplomats, were subject to a greater deal of scrutiny and power than was customary in presidential political systems; some theorists such as Shāhanshāh have gone so far to claim that in certain areas the Senate shares the chieftaincy of state). The Senate maintained strong supervisory roles over the Justice and Defense functions of the Republic. And aspects of the Anarchy Plan can still be seen in certain legal areas (for example, original jurisdiction over cases of crimes against sapience belongs to the Senate itself, which typically in law delegated this responsibility to the appropriate courts, but it did not belong to the judiciary as a matter of fundamental law; as a result Master Jedi Knight Ulic Qel-Droma was brought by the Jedi Inquistion before the Congress for a direct trial). Similarly, the could appoint a (non-partisan) commission of Senators to receive diplomats with the Supreme Chancellor (even against his will), arguably contrary to the Supreme Chancellor’s responsibility for heading the state.

The Senate was associated with great honor and circumstance, befitting their position as the dominant organ of government. While the Senate Rotunda was considered the center of galactic governance, the Great Senate Hall (capable of holding a full convocation of the Senate, unlike the Rotunda, which managed the day-to-day working minority) was considered one of the Wonders of the Galaxy. It sat at the end of Founders' Avenue, amid the great plazas and statues commemorating the Founders of the Republic and the Framers of the Constitution. The Senate directly commissioned a Sergeant-of-Arms, who was command-in-chief and administrative head of the Senate Guard, an elite body whose role was to protect the Senate collectively from threats or disruptions and the Senators, individually, wherever they were. The Senate Guards were superbly trained, and a tenure in the Senate Guards was sure to land Guardsman lucrative opportunities in private security contracting, a second career of service in the Defense Establishment, or in the Security Forces. Not that the Guardsman needed it to survive after a term of service, because any Guardsman discharged with honors was granted handsome pension. Also subject to the Sergeant-at-Arms’ authority was the Union Capital District Police and Gendarmerie (the Executive and Judiciary commissioned their own police forces to patrol the immediate grounds, but relied upon the UCDP&G for general defense and maintenance of law and order), whose job it was to enforce law and order within the grounds of the galactic government, and which was bound to defend the Senate at all costs should the Capital District ever come under attack.

Senators were appointed by their member states according to their own customs and legal traditions, subject only to broad standards and requirements by the electoral laws and guarantees by the Republic to the sapience population. They were very prestigious appointments, and often competed with the head of state or government of the member state for prestige. They had some ability to interfere on their accord with Republic government and assets within their constituency (reflecting the theory that the Republic received its power and sovereignty from, and with the consent of, the member states). Senior senators had to mind a complex web of gentlemen’s agreements, treaties, compromises, and ad hoc deals in order to maintain the confidence of his “Support” (in Senatorial jargon) or affiliated Junior Senators, as required by Senatorial constitutional conventions. However the rewards were very great: a Senior Senator might effectively speak and vote for an entire sector’s or even region’s worth of member states, and accordingly were considered more powerful than all the leaders of individual states but the leaders of the Great Powers, despite ranking below all of them on the order of precedence. Junior Senators continued to serve even while “loaned” (referring to their conditional “loan” of their vote to a Senior Senator), and continued to wrangle political deals amongst Senior Senators and applied their influence in the various Devolved Governments. Senators were entitled to be referred to as “Senator” for life. Retired senators were often still traders of favors in galactic politics, and some retired senators managed to gain strong if unclear influence as elder statesmen. These “senators emerati” traded their connections and familiarity with Coruscant politics and culture to in-comers, who then owed the Emerti favors for their other clients and homeworld. As retired Senator for the Republic of Eastreijk and Senior Senator for the Pylex Commons, Iulius Cracchus von und zu Irk-ra-Gen V was so bold to say, “the Senate-in-law is composed only of those Senators who are in the business of casting votes; the Senate-in-fact is larger, informal, and the Senate-in-law is subordinate to it.”

The Associate Delegations were the other major party to galactic deliberation and legislation. Junior to the Senators, they piggy-backed off their delegations...

Despite the opaque, indirect, and somewhat aristocratic character and means of representation for the galactic populace in the Senate, it served a needed function and consistently well enough that it survived for over twenty-five thousand years...

This is where the draft is so far. I've started the Supreme Chancellor's chapter but I need feedback and where to take this, what you think about my ideas and style, and some suggestions (the clearly uncompleted sections are a conclusion and fleshing out the "Associate Representative Delegations" to which Binks belonged, representing special interest groups and the "lesser" polities to the full States of the Union: those other 50 million political entities).

Basically with the Republic, I am imagining that there had been a growing integration for some time and a strengthening of interstellar and galactic common institutions and communities. As a result, the early Republic is kind of descended from something like the UNO and EU. Its character upon being founded is pretty loose and confused, I'm thinking kind of the way the UFP in Star Trek is, on paper. As for style and make-up, I'm using the Confederation phase of the United States and the Roman Republic as inspiration, with it becoming more like a federal Germany, strong EU, United States as time goes on (with good measure of modification because a government which rules a mostly united, almost entirely self-contained civilization which is technologically and developmentally static (a crazy concept and really unique and hard to think of the implications) has a lot less to do in general than the governments we're used to. But clearly the government needs the wiggle room to respond to crisis and fracture when it appears. They're trying to split the difference and its not easy. Also, my vision for Senators is that they're considered kind of aristocratically; more like the Roman prestige, not putzes like we treat our politicians. They have more pomp and circumstance. I kind of like the idea of some kind of Senator's regalia, a better mode of address, more social privileges, and some kind of retirement honorific or something.

[Vehrec]

Thanks Darth Raptor, I appreciate the explanation. I also agree that Star by Star was a good book. I am sad that they had to kill Anakin, he was a great character.

But, at least they still had their lightsabers. Which was pretty much my point. Yes, they wear armor (why shouldn't they, as long as the armor does not impede movement) and yes they can use other weapons, but they are probably more used to using their lightsabers in most battle situations.

More used to, possibly, but that by no means should be a signal for them to forgo effective weapons. Obi-wan might be a noteworthy exception, fond of using the Lightsaber for almost everything and disdaining blasters as clumsy and random weapons. But this would be exceptional and only possible because he is one of the truely great masters, able to infiltrate enemy strongholds undetected and turn minds away from noticeing him. Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu on the other hand would use anything from Star Destroyers to sharpened sticks to defeat their enemies. Its partly attitude and partly practicality that determine the end product.

==

By the way, I also agree with the huge paragraph you copied from Primus, Hoth. I don't have a problem with Jedi Generals leading from the front, and doing all that Primus said, I just think that they also lead from the front sometiems. Maybe its not in the same battles, maybe its after they give up direct management during that particular battle, but still, they are trained to fight from the front as well.

There are things that a Jedi do very well, and I think that if a Jedi General realizes that if he does it personally then success might be easier, he might consider doing it personally. Then he would function as a small team, maybe of infiltrators.

It might not just be Jedi leading from the front-the clone wars would be a chance for the old Core Nobles to shed a few unwanted hangers on by putting them in the military, and no doubt a few of these would be suprisingly good at it once they survive the first five minutes. Still, Jedi with no military training and no experience as generals should know well enough to shut up and follow orders and not lead anything bigger than maybe a squad.

Darth Hoth, I also like the idea of there being strictly Jedi Armies.

I don't. Jedi are the guardians of the republic, and they might have a lot of power and influence, but I suspect that they would promptly second any units they raise to the Republic proper. When Mace Windu found a young brash Force Sensative on his old homeworld, he chose to induct the man not into the Order, but into the Grand Army with the rank of Colonel and promised him a special operations command to instruct others in the art of guerrilla warfare. While one occurance is not enough to say that Mace made a habit of this, I still like the feel of the Jedi clinging to the Republic even as Palpatine begins to drag them under.

[Admiral Felire]

Primus, I have to read your document in more detail before I am able to completely provide my thoughts, opinions and my ideas on what needs to be added, removed or changed.

Though I do want to say that in general I like it and think that it has a lot of merit.

I also want to say that I find your thought that the Galactic Republic comes from UN and EU-like organizations. That is not something that I think I support. I think I'd rather their be hundreds of fully soverign, fully unnoected states that finally realized that its better to be united than apart. I don't know if them forming an EU or UN type organization first before Galactic Republic works.

I do want to say that I agree with you that Galactic Senators (unlike other politicans) should be honored, respected and treated as mini-royalty in many ways. That sort of concept works very well I think.

Vehrec

I think all Jedi should be trained in their use and should always, at all times, no matter what, carry their lightsaber with them. Whether they use other weapons, like blasters, is up to the indivdual Jedi.

My idea for Jedi is that they all go through training that makes them pretty good at sociology, tactics, strategy, warfare, combat and other such fields. I have always supported the view that the Jedi go through years of training in probably everything from art history to piloting to heavy weapons use to hyperspacial physics. They are the most talented generalists in the galaxy, but they also specialize in particular fields.

So yeah, this is why I think pretty much most Jedi could be an okay general por pilot or what have you.

Maybe I wasn't clear when I posted my support of him. But I think that the Jedi of this era, and this time, and right now, should have armies. That they purchase their own clone army and use it as an additional force for their use. Not that they normally have an Army, just in the sense of the times of the Clone Wars. This way, one could have Palpatine transform the Jedi Army into the Stormtrooper Corps and thus once again he turns the weapons of his enemies against them.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The clones being blissfully led by the Jedi in the original PT is one of its worst moral messages. Does no one in the Jedi Order think slavery - especially war slavery, backed by brainwashing and eugenics, is bad?

[Admiral Felire]

No, because its not something that their culture considers bad. And I guess neither does the Force. Remember their morality might not be our morality. They could have mixes of Middle Ages, Eastern, Egyptian, Roman or whatever else morale code they need to have. Why pigeonhole them into modern day morality when their is no reason they need to be.

Our moral code is not the be all and end all of morality.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, let's have them initiate and build rapport with their child recruits by making them their submissive sexual partners, I mean the Classical Greek aristocrats did it, its just culture.

[Admiral Felire]

Yeah, let's have them initiate and build rapport with their child recruits by making them their submissive sexual partners, I mean the Classical Greek aristocrats did it, its just culture.

While I won't go into that much detail as that is not the point of this thread, the point of your statement is one of the most inaccurate statements that I have seen you make in this thread. The Ancient Greek practice of pedastry did not include what they would term as children. It included those that were post-pubescent and thus adults in the eyes of the society. It was also a method of teaching, of educating, and of introducing the younger adults into the society of the adult male in the city. It provided contacts and friendships and a mentoring structure. Different culture, different standards, and different life expectations.

So, your point is plain old wrong and thus meaningless on its accounts, with only the purpose to rial up the members of this project by appealing to emotion.

--

I should make note that I am not claiming that we should practice that in our current society. Far from it. But I am pointing out that there is nothing wrong with it from the point of view of the Greeks who developed it. Which also means that there is nothing wrong with us implementing it in a fictional universe if we so choose.

I also want to make note that I know this because history is my chosen field of academic learning and I have much interest in the ancient world - Rome, Greece and Egypt (amongst others) very much hold my interest.

++

I know that I will be voted out on this issue, but I do not think that we should judge certain aspects of Star Wars culture by our own. If the majority of the cultures that we are using as basics for the particular emphasises of Star Wars culture used something then we should consider if our including that particular aspect fits in what we want. If it does, then we include it, if it does not then we don't. But at least we would be looking at it rationally and not through blind belief that the modern culture is superior or better than those of the past.

Like I said above, I am all for Jedi taking children at near birth. The fact that only Jedi can truly teach other Jedi to utilize their powers for good is a good reason for that. I am also in approval of the master-apprentice training bond and how the apprentice goes with the master, learning in the field and thus having practical experience and capability.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No, the fact is they buttfucked kids in order to show em how to be real men, and society was so fucking primitive and shitty back then no one gave a shit. As if somehow because their balls dropped its okay to have an intrinsically unethical relationship? Do you think the rightness or wrongness of you having sex with underage children should be okay as long as your cultural peers approve? Some things are unethical and its not an issue of merely culture. Furthermore, narratives are constructed to be accessible to their audience, and that means not having basic moralities which are completely offensive to common sense and regarded as okay within the narrative space.

It doesn't fucking matter if they don't think anything is wrong with it - it is wrong, and a lack of notice for that by characters implicates them in immorality. How are you supposed to consistently portray good and evil if you're good guys, supposed to be viewed romantically, just happen to also think slavery is okay? Some sticky-note reference that "that's their culture" doesn't cut it. Its a revoltingly primitive and unethical system.

[Admiral Felire]

So I was wondering whether or not we should use the ideas of the Seperatist movement in this modified and totally unoffical and uncanon version of the Star Wars Prequel Era.

If we don't then we need to figure out who the main threat against the Galactic Republic is. How they got so big and why they are threating the Core of the Republic. We also need to figure out how their military is organized, supported and what sort of numbers were looking at in terms of naval and army units.

At the same time, if we use Dooku (and I think we should as he is perfect for us) we need to figure what parts of his background we are changing and what we are going to leave in. I for one think that we should keep him being a former Jedi turned Sith who is a leader of the largest faction and also the combined leader of the main coalition of warlords attacking the Republic. This would allow Palpatine to be able to control both sides very well which works to our benefit.

In addition, we are going to need to come up with a unified thought on how our Galactic Republic is going to war when it goes to war. What sorts of troops and ships they will use. If and when they turn to conscription or anything like it to support the war that is occuring throughout the galaxy.

++

And as to the other issue, I have made my points abundantly clear multiple times and I do not feel like derailing this thread on offtopic and useless discussions of morality and the various aspects of it. That is not why I have come hear and that is not why I work on the points of this thread and project. Nothing anyone has said has modified or changed or effected my thinking, and I doubt I would do the same to others, so I am not even bothering. There is so much more worthy things that I will be doing with my time then discussing pointless and meaningless topics with those not wanting to realize that there are more than just two sides to thoughts and philosphies.

This is my final point on the general issue of morality, though I will continue to point out what I wish to be implemented in the various points as we come up with galactic culture, society, law and traditions.

[Darth Raptor]

Good work on the Senate. I find it difficult to write in Publius' scholarly style, but you do a good job of it. There's a lot of innocuous fanon in his works, and I'm going to personally scour the Domus Publica and The New Order in Power and document it all for the sake of internal consistency. More than anything, I want to preserve the overwhelming vastness and visceral reality that he portrays in his fiction, so we should strive to incorporate even the most arcane and seemingly insignificant details. I'll start on that right away.

[Darth Hoth]

On the slavery/underage sex/Jedi morality topic:

I am one hundred per cent behind Illuminatus on this one. Star Wars should not be a Greek tragedy with evil fighting evil (though that is what Lucas turned it into), but a story of good versus evil, and of hope. While I take the concept of "Great Men" somewhat less seriously than he, thinking that a realistic political model must at least acknowledge societal trends, we share the core assumption of the heroes being good. This does not mean that I wish, say, the Rebel Alliance to be all squeaky clean or the Empire being all sociopathic and Communist; that is simplistic thinking. However, the main good characters as such should represent a moral perspective, even if aspects of what they serve (e.g., the NR) is of debatable morality. Having Jedi supporting slavery and repeated war crimes/flagrant violations of human rights is just not feasible; to then portray a "good" character, you basically have to put him in opposition to the system, like historical writers do with their "Good German" characters. Also, it is counter to the idea of the Empire being something undesirable if the Old Republic was worse (a main reason why I hated the prequels, by the way: Them making it so).

On Illuminatus's essay:

Good work, and good continuity with Publius; your style is pretty much indistinguishable from his. (Nice giving him a cameo, by the way.) Aside from the problem of certain names (and perhaps the linguistics discussion) being a bit too reminiscent of real life, I have no real problems with it. I do have a few questions, though.

*The criteria for what process is acceptable to elect a Senator appears very ambiguously designed (intentionally, I am sure). More in detail, what are your thoughts there; does the Republic basically accept anyone who would join, even monarchies and tyrannies? As I understand it, you are aiming for a supranational construct, rather than a state as such, and staying fairly close to the prequel sources. What is the Republic's authority with regards to its members? Are they basically self-determining and independent, or can there be direct action taken against them, such as the mission against the Krath in TotJ?

*Likewise, what mechanisms are in place to avoid the kind of factionalised infighting and corruption that claimed the canon prequel Republic? The position of the lesser powers still appears very weak; do you intend to stick with the premise of the Republic being essentially Core-run?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Good work on the Senate. I find it difficult to write in Publius' scholarly style, but you do a good job of it. There's a lot of innocuous fanon in his works, and I'm going to personally scour the Domus Publica and The New Order in Power and document it all for the sake of internal consistency. More than anything, I want to preserve the overwhelming vastness and visceral reality that he portrays in his fiction, so we should strive to incorporate even the most arcane and seemingly insignificant details. I'll start on that right away.

That's why I use historical analogs, we've discussed at length how little metonyms and such from all kinds of sources and how people really talk about history and use colloquialisms lends a lot of verisimilitude. I also don't want to be too derivative, though he's obviously a huge influence. I guess I'm left bereft of other ostensibly in-universe fluff with a good style to base it off of.

I am one hundred per cent behind Illuminatus on this one. Star Wars should not be a Greek tragedy with evil fighting evil (though that is what Lucas turned it into), but a story of good versus evil, and of hope. While I take the concept of "Great Men" somewhat less seriously than he, thinking that a realistic political model must at least acknowledge societal trends, we share the core assumption of the heroes being good. This does not mean that I wish, say, the Rebel Alliance to be all squeaky clean or the Empire being all sociopathic and Communist; that is simplistic thinking. However, the main good characters as such should represent a moral perspective, even if aspects of what they serve (e.g., the NR) is of debatable morality. Having Jedi supporting slavery and repeated war crimes/flagrant violations of human rights is just not feasible; to then portray a "good" character, you basically have to put him in opposition to the system, like historical writers do with their "Good German" characters. Also, it is counter to the idea of the Empire being something undesirable if the Old Republic was worse (a main reason why I hated the prequels, by the way: Them making it so).

Well I would like to say a few things about this. I do think there are some trends and fashions; they just oscillate about a galactic mean or over a long-enough time span result in equilibrium. For example, when dealing with motivations for Palpatine's rise to power, I do want to portray that it is a time of corruption and reaction. Robber barony and aristocratic privilege (though many or some of these have been egged on by the Sith, or are part of Palpatine's shadow clientele) is eroding the protections and health of the state. Palpatine is supposed to be ludicrously popular, and therefore I'm looking for ways for the Clone Wars to arise organically from the social and political situation and for all of it arrive with him truly and genuinely being regarded as a quasi-religious messiah figure. Palpatine should personify the personality cult. People pay homage to him, and him personally, really believing that the Republic, civilization, the galaxy could have been lost to anarchy and barbarism or oppression and despotism. He is the elder statesman-savior of the galaxy; and Anakin Skywalker is the knight-savior. The people should beg Palpatine to remain past his term, and to don the purple. He and his programs ought to be wildly popular.

What I am emphasizing is that there should NOT be broad trends toward collapse and dysfunction (begging the question of why now? its worked for 25,000 years*). There should be lots of people making decisions and making mistakes. And Palpatine, Palpatine is the kind of person who could be anything he wanted, and could change this how he wished. He chooses to do bad, and all kinds of people everywhere make decisions consciously and unconsciously to let him get away with what he is doing. Palpatine should be the prime driver, the great man the Sith are waiting for. He does exploit what's available, but for me the key is the contrast between him and the Jedi. He is Force-sensitive and so talented but he cloaks it in secrecy. The Jedi are uniquely gifted but acknowledge it to public scrutiny and knowledge. Palpatine is a genius but plays quiet and unassuming. The Jedi have great power and prestige and everyone knows it, but they are modest. Palpatine plays for everything wrong in every person, and he is playing for power and for keeps. The Jedi play for everything good in a person, and they are bringing all this to service in the galaxy. Palpatine is a purely selfish character - and he's chosen all his life to be self-interested and narcissistic. The Jedi (generally) are selfless and dedicated their lives to altruistic service. What should be emphasize is there was nothing inevitable about Palpatine, he chose to be how he is and he chose to lust for power and self-aggrandizement. Its also what kills him - he cannot tolerate the existence of the Skywalkers and he develops a monomania for taming and assimilating them. What the prequel era should be about is greatness decieved. The whole galaxy should be making hard decisions like Anakin Skywalker and choosing wrong. Every senator that signs into Palpatine's shadow clientele, every general takes money, every rabble-rouser decieved. The theme should reflect the little choices made by cult members to surrender their minds, the submission and concession of the public to people like Hitler, to giving away your power for a little security like many today, to give away your liberty and traditions like they did to Augustus. These general ideas should take precedence over any particular vision or crude requirement in numbers when we talk about the Rise of the Empire era. Afterall, a lot of why we're doing this is we felt that what we knew narratively before The Phantom Menace, was unsatisfied by what Lucas produced. I'm starting to revise our timeline again. Probably shrink the Clone Wars and move up closer to the fall of Anakin and acclamation of Palpatine. And instead, extend an era of "dark times" for the Jedi and Republic for decades prior, of which the Clone Wars are the violent climax, the winner takes all conflagration caused by decades of running crises and rising powers and subversion.

Good work, and good continuity with Publius; your style is pretty much indistinguishable from his. (Nice giving him a cameo, by the way.) Aside from the problem of certain names (and perhaps the linguistics discussion) being a bit too reminiscent of real life, I have no real problems with it. I do have a few questions, though.

*The criteria for what process is acceptable to elect a Senator appears very ambiguously designed (intentionally, I am sure). More in detail, what are your thoughts there; does the Republic basically accept anyone who would join, even monarchies and tyrannies? As I understand it, you are aiming for a supranational construct, rather than a state as such, and staying fairly close to the prequel sources. What is the Republic's authority with regards to its members? Are they basically self-determining and independent, or can there be direct action taken against them, such as the mission against the Krath in TotJ?

Its not a confederation. Members who violate the laws (including guarantees of civil and sapient rights) or peace of the Galactic Union maybe acted upon. The Republic is the state manifestation of the single civilization of SW, and it has powers accorded to a state, and being largely the government of a united and self-contained civilization means that virtually all of its policy will be directed inward. The military were primarily exist to serve the social and political stability and equilibrium of society. Its much more like our conventional conception of a paramilitary or many pre-modern militaries in its strategic outlook. Its only external mandate really is to guard against random barbarians and nomads from the Unknown Regions. However, I do think it is somewhat more aristocratic. I think its possible for strong monarchies to be part of the Republic, but if the senator is not very responsible to an electorate, I imagine this reduces his clout and prestige in Senate, and diminishes the strength of his vote. Also, the Republic keeps a closer eye on states like those, to be sure rights are respected and quality of life is better. So you can be a bit more aristocratic if you are a state and you want to be, but this comes at the expense of clout and strength in the galactic community and greater scrutiny (I think in something as old as the Republic and with a hands-off kind of policy commiserate with a static, self-contained state, a lot of things are conventions and cultural pressures - soft power - as opposed to constitutional articles and laws, plus it makes for interesting variety).

Although think of how much of our modern state's attention is taking up be genuine international relations, or to compete in the rat race of economic growth and technological innovation. None of that exists anymore. Despite is super-modernity in many cases, in others the Republic is very pre-modern and primitive. Its purpose is to read the mail and keep things humming, and prevent anything from getting too out of hand. Its really hands-off therefore, in many cases. And many of the galactic institutions which predated the Republic still exist and do the work of coordinating economies and everything else and this works just fine (though the Republic retains the right to intervene, it never really does). The Republic was created to fight off the last threats to civilization, and to remove all the between-state red tape and garbage when they were truly independent and sovereign, with much of the integration having already taken place. Part of the problem the OR suffers and the NR also has problems with is working out a constitution where the Republic may move swiftly and decisively in times of genuine crisis and be able "bind the galaxy together" but then not have these Shiny Red Buttons of power and intervention sitting around during business as usual (99% of the time). On the other hand, the Empire structurally can do it quite well, but its prone to abuse.

Also, a bit of perspective. One sham democracy hiding one-man rule is not an indictment of the whole Republic, and we should say such through a character if the time comes up. Chicago is a huge city relative to the U.S.A. as a whole, and its a political-machine-run banana city. Does that mean the U.S. is not a democratic state? There are a MILLION member states to the Republic. Think of the scale between a couple and the whole thing. I'd be amazed if there wasn't a bunch of sficca republics they haven't noticed throughout the Republic yet, and if there's even a few absolute monarchies or one-party states on the shitty Rim for a couple years that no one has phoned in yet. A million is a huge figure. Think bell curves. Even if everyone within three standard deviations both ways is a good citizen (well over 95%), you're still talking about thousands of shit-ass states in the margins. Being able to keep that many in line is a job well done, proportionally speaking.

*Likewise, what mechanisms are in place to avoid the kind of factionalised infighting and corruption that claimed the canon prequel Republic? The position of the lesser powers still appears very weak; do you intend to stick with the premise of the Republic being essentially Core-run?

Well, fairly, most of the money, population, and everything else, should be concentrated inwardly. I think we should show both points of view, which reflect attitudes in our own society. Should society prop up traditional or rural ways of life? Do these livelihoods deserve protection and sustenance? Or should blunt economics and the majority will come at the expense of this minority? I imagine they split the difference away for everyone to live with it (I get the impression that people think that equilibrium and stasis means nothing happens and no one is unhappy, on the contrary, it just means trends produce situations that never go anywhere and where there are never enough unhappy people or people unhappy enough that they do anything about it). Maybe we should deal with this fact, that the NR has a lot of support in the Rim, but this comes at the expense of support in the Core when they finally capture (not to mention they suffered few of the abuses of Palpatine and remain pretty New Order-ified). Alternatively, once the NR is the main galactic state, it has to make tough decisions and the Rim like many ruralities doesn't like interference in its traditions and prerogatives but probably also needs artificial support. I tried to address this somewhat with commenting on constitutional conventions and Senior Senators not having a one way relationship with their Junior partners.

For a better idea on my ideas of transition in an equilibrium galaxy, check out the Second Empire or NJO thread, where I described in reply to Raptor ways the galaxy could be different in 2000 years without it having really "advanced."


*One of my major motivations is avoid awkward questions. The galaxy has been a self-contained social and political unit with a single government continuously for 25,000 years. So don't do things that beg questions like, "why is the government falling just now?" or "why haven't they gone to other galaxies?" or "how come no one thought of this before?" Or have really good answers. My favorites are "this guy is just that good" or "this is extremely, stupefyingly rare, a freak chance." A lot of this works to thematic and narrative advantage anyway, because it takes the gravitas off lessons of history (big trend based ones anyway) and puts them on little people making bad decisions, like good literature - like Shakespeare. My "Great Man" vision is based partly on the romanticism and semi-aristocratic outlook of SW thematically, and because it provides a good reason for change amongst tens of thousands of years of equilibrium, and in light of such time and such a big place. In such light, your character can really be completely superhuman and incredible - and should be, or just really really lucky or in a freak situation - but they should retain human motivations and thoughts, and this is what is so cool about SW: they fly, they shoot lightning, they travel amongst the stars, and you can still relate to them.

[Darth Raptor]

For me, this is Star Wars returning to its roots. When I was a naive little kid, Star Wars was about good and evil. Vader was scary, the Jedi were heroes, the Rebellion was justified and the Empire, while totally awesome, was blatantly evil. I cheered, not cringed, when the Death Star blew. It wasn't until I got into the EU and especially when the prequels came out that my older, more cynical self formed opinions consistent with the facts but counter to the intent. I'm all for gray, nuanced, moral ambiguity. But in their effort to do that, they didn't just make the Imperials understandable or sympathetic. They made them right. They made the Rebellion wrong. While I'm sure it was unintentional, the message of the prequels and NJO literally is "Democracy cannot work in the GFFA. They seriously NEED the Empire." The thought of reversing that fills me with a kind of enthusiasm for the setting I haven't had in years.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree completely, I was totally horrified by the initial NJO overshadowing the war with the Empire and eventually the Clone Wars too (the idea that in-universe people or historians looking back would remember the shitass EU bullshit like NJO and the crap that followed like the Del Rey and Dark Horse Legacy over the film-events). And of course, what does it matter what the heroes scarified, given some dipshit TuskenJedi (are you fucking shitting me? Just rewatch ANH, and think to yourself, hey maybe one of those dudes is really the Sith Lord Emperor in 100 years! Teh awesome bro! LOLZ! and try not to vomit) is going to become a Sith Lord and the Emperor AGAIN.

Its time to bring it back. That's why I'm emphasizing essential character conflicts and narratives emphasizing CHOICES and DECISIONS by INDIVIDUAL characters. The message of SW is that a couple people really can make a difference, and on their shoulders rest everything, whether they choose good or evil. And of course, the first ranks of those people should be in the films.

[Darth Hoth]

To be fair, overshadowing the minimalist EU version of the Imperial collapse is not very difficult, so one need not stone them all that much for that . . . In fact, I downright like that we got at least one truly epic-scale novel in Star by Star, even if it overshadowed films and EU alike no end. (And yes, I am aware that the Death Star cannot truly be upstaged by large fleets or planetary sieges in terms of physical scale, but it also cannot contend with such in sheer emotional and epic impact.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hoth, do you have any response to my overview of conceptual and thematic grounds from my point of view?

[Darth Hoth]

I am working on it. Give me a little time; your answer to my questions was comprehensive enough to require it