Salvation War Criticism Thread

[RogueIce]

Stark was talking earlier about how audience shapes storytelling. I think it would be a real interesting challenge, on SDN, to get an audience of atheists to accept a God who is actually as powerful, alien, and dangerous as you'd expect God to be--never mind the writing challenge of actually making that story work.

Indeed. In fairness to Stuart, I'm pretty sure he was writing with SDN in mind. Although I've never read the TBOverse novels so maybe he's always like that?

Anyway, I just don't get it. Maybe those who've read the story can tell me. But why doesn't God just Noah's Flood* the planet? I'm pretty sure raising the water level to a point beyond even the worst global warming predicts would seriously fuck up humanity's industrial base, to say the least. Though I guess the US Navy could keep on sailing for awhile. Until they run out of fuel (for non nuclear powered ships) and food (because living off fish forever is probably not practical).

Alternatively, if humanity's mighty iron chariots M1A2 Abrams tanks** are somehow immune to the power of the Almighty Creator and can take out his angels and stuff...why doesn't he just make some of his own? He supposedly created life, the universe and everything, but he can't make a modern weapons system?

*And I know I've read somewhere that Noah's Flood wasn't worldwide or something, but surely God could create enough water from all the hydrogen and oxygen molecules in the universe? Or just, I don't know, analy rape conservation of mass and pull water out of His Holy Ass?

**Replace "M1A2 Abrams tanks" with whatever the weapon systems we're using to win the war. And has he tried raining fire and brimstone on our heads yet?

But yeah, I'm with Red. I'd love to see what kind of reaction a story about God and/or Hell declaring war on humanity and there's not a damn thing SCIENCE can do to save us (because God is All Powerful and stuff) would receive on SDN. Would it get honest and fair reviews? Or would people just bash on the silly fundie?

[RogueIce]

If you move it, I expect you're preserving it, but you're also going to stifle it. There's a cost/benefit involved.

If he wants to preserve it while still keeping it in Testing, he could make it an Announcement. Announcements are immune to the auto prune. Stickies are not, though. So it'd have to be an Announcement.

[General Zod]

Man, when did this thread get all serious?

I'm quite seriously toying with moving this thread to fanfics with its more reasonable or interesting criticisms intact, as a "TSW Criticisms Thread". It seems to me that Stuart's story has something of a home on this board and discussions of it merit a wider audience.

Edit: Parts of this thread. Minus anything that references penises.

Fanfics = wider audience? I don't believe you.

[Lagmonster]

It would have nothing to do with testing per se, but rather everything to do with putting fanfic related shit in the fanfic forum. With this would come a certain unavoidable reduction in bullshit, but that splendid brainbox Duckie has already gone and outed me as a humourless rules Nazi.

[General Zod]

It would have nothing to do with testing per se, but rather everything to do with putting fanfic related shit in the fanfic forum. With this would come a certain unavoidable reduction in bullshit, but that splendid brainbox Duckie has already gone and outed me as a humourless rules Nazi.

I was talking purely about forum traffic, not content.

[ray245]

Stark was talking earlier about how audience shapes storytelling. I think it would be a real interesting challenge, on SDN, to get an audience of atheists to accept a God who is actually as powerful, alien, and dangerous as you'd expect God to be--never mind the writing challenge of actually making that story work.

Indeed. In fairness to Stuart, I'm pretty sure he was writing with SDN in mind. Although I've never read the TBOverse novels so maybe he's always like that?

Anyway, I just don't get it. Maybe those who've read the story can tell me. But why doesn't God just Noah's Flood* the planet? I'm pretty sure raising the water level to a point beyond even the worst global warming predicts would seriously fuck up humanity's industrial base, to say the least. Though I guess the US Navy could keep on sailing for awhile. Until they run out of fuel (for non nuclear powered ships) and food (because living off fish forever is probably not practical).

Alternatively, if humanity's mighty iron chariots M1A2 Abrams tanks** are somehow immune to the power of the Almighty Creator and can take out his angels and stuff...why doesn't he just make some of his own? He supposedly created life, the universe and everything, but he can't make a modern weapons system?

*And I know I've read somewhere that Noah's Flood wasn't worldwide or something, but surely God could create enough water from all the hydrogen and oxygen molecules in the universe? Or just, I don't know, analy rape conservation of mass and pull water out of His Holy Ass?

**Replace "M1A2 Abrams tanks" with whatever the weapon systems we're using to win the war. And has he tried raining fire and brimstone on our heads yet?

But yeah, I'm with Red. I'd love to see what kind of reaction a story about God and/or Hell declaring war on humanity and there's not a damn thing SCIENCE can do to save us (because God is All Powerful and stuff) would receive on SDN. Would it get honest and fair reviews? Or would people just bash on the silly fundie?

I don't think it would be bashed. Instead of trying to judge TSW as a serious story about morality, I'm simply viewing the TSW as nothing more than a funny satire story.

Additionally, I think that there is nothing wrong with the reading a story whereby the author is trying to build an entire world as opposed to relying to traditional storytelling methods by focusing on the characters. I think this really opens up a lot more avenue for even more potential stories to be told by fanfic authors down here, just like what Stas Bush is doing.

I mean you can easily create new stories set in TSW's universe, with more emphasis on the characters.

In regards to being unable to defeat Yahweh with Science, I think that if Yahweh declared to everyone that he has closed the door of heavens at the start of the 20th century, it is highly likely that humanity would have lost the war.


I'm also surprised that testing is acting more serious than Stuart in regards to a war against Satan. It's like they are saying that Stuart's TSW stories aren't serious enough! Brilliant twist of events!

[XaLEv]

Anyway, I just don't get it. Maybe those who've read the story can tell me. But why doesn't God just Noah's Flood* the planet?

Because he can't. The being called Yahweh who rules the cosmic klein bottle called Heaven is just a highly divergent hominid, as are Satan and all the demons and angels. He has special powers, as do the rest of them, but in the end he's just a delusional but exceptionally powerful ape. Same with this part:

Alternatively, if humanity's mighty iron chariots M1A2 Abrams tanks** are somehow immune to the power of the Almighty Creator and can take out his angels and stuff...why doesn't he just make some of his own? He supposedly created life, the universe and everything, but he can't make a modern weapons system?

He only thinks he created everything. They would have to make those things the way we do and they lack both the technology base and industrial infrastructure for it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Anyway, I just don't get it. Maybe those who've read the story can tell me. But why doesn't God just Noah's Flood* the planet? I'm pretty sure raising the water level to a point beyond even the worst global warming predicts would seriously fuck up humanity's industrial base, to say the least. Though I guess the US Navy could keep on sailing for awhile. Until they run out of fuel (for non nuclear powered ships) and food (because living off fish forever is probably not practical).

Some of those stories in the Bible weren't really done by God. For example, Sodom and Gammorrah was actually instigated by a Demon who figured out how to rain down fire from the sky, but God decided to take all the credit. Likewise, they simply may have forgotten how to do Noah's Flood.

Also, God's attacks in Pantheocide are using the plagues of Revelation as a checklist. They've already somehow altered the course of hurricanes and amped their strength, to the point of wasting a USAF base with all of Murrica's B-2 bombers in it. They've also fucked up the fisheries by causing Red Tide. Now they have progressed up the list to sending giant monsters.

Alternatively, if humanity's mighty iron chariots M1A2 Abrams tanks** are somehow immune to the power of the Almighty Creator and can take out his angels and stuff...why doesn't he just make some of his own? He supposedly created life, the universe and everything, but he can't make a modern weapons system?

Because he didn't actually create anything but is also, himself, a false god? And the Angels and Demons' tech base is really primitive.

*And I know I've read somewhere that Noah's Flood wasn't worldwide or something, but surely God could create enough water from all the hydrogen and oxygen molecules in the universe? Or just, I don't know, analy rape conservation of mass and pull water out of His Holy Ass?

**Replace "M1A2 Abrams tanks" with whatever the weapon systems we're using to win the war. And has he tried raining fire and brimstone on our heads yet?

Because he's not actually all-powerful or anything. He's just a crazy ancient creature with a really loud voice and lots of lightning.

Also, there's no active volcanism in Heaven. The fire and brimstone in the Old Testament was actually Hell's fault, and Hell has a lot of volcanism. But God took the credit for it.

But yeah, I'm with Red. I'd love to see what kind of reaction a story about God and/or Hell declaring war on humanity and there's not a damn thing SCIENCE can do to save us (because God is All Powerful and stuff) would receive on SDN. Would it get honest and fair reviews? Or would people just bash on the silly fundie?

I find tanks rolling over demons to be more entertaining then reading about people being thrown into Hell or dying from plague and pestilence and stuff. Because MURRICAH FUCK YEAH!

It is like how I enjoy watching documentaries about FUTURE WEAPONS RAR! while not liking documentaries about African children dying from smallpox or leprosy or something.

It would have nothing to do with testing per se, but rather everything to do with putting fanfic related shit in the fanfic forum. With this would come a certain unavoidable reduction in bullshit, but that splendid brainbox Duckie has already gone and outed me as a humourless rules Nazi.

It would be bad because the OMG MCNAMARA crowd would descend upon this thread and go OH NO LITERARY CRITICISM BAD I JUSTIFICATE STORY BY POSTING CHART OF XB-70 VALKYRIE AND MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEM GODDAMN OBAMA FUCK THOSE RUSSIANS ABM! NIKE-HERCULES! MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX! SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP! WHORES WHORES WHORES!

Hell, in this thread I can represent that crowd by posting whoreswhoreswhores!

[Rye]

But yeah, I'm with Red. I'd love to see what kind of reaction a story about God and/or Hell declaring war on humanity and there's not a damn thing SCIENCE can do to save us (because God is All Powerful and stuff) would receive on SDN. Would it get honest and fair reviews? Or would people just bash on the silly fundie?

I could do such a series, and I don't think it'd be met with hostility. The fanfics area is generally very positive, I doubt they'd RAEG against the story/writer because it didn't give them total fanservice.

[Surlethe]

Man, when did this thread get all serious?

I'm quite seriously toying with moving this thread to fanfics with its more reasonable or interesting criticisms intact, as a "TSW Criticisms Thread". It seems to me that Stuart's story has something of a home on this board and discussions of it merit a wider audience.

Edit: Parts of this thread. Minus anything that references penises.

I would have split it this morning, but I had work and school.

[Ryan Thunder]

But yeah, I'm with Red. I'd love to see what kind of reaction a story about God and/or Hell declaring war on humanity and there's not a damn thing SCIENCE can do to save us (because God is All Powerful and stuff) would receive on SDN. Would it get honest and fair reviews? Or would people just bash on the silly fundie?

I could do such a series, and I don't think it'd be met with hostility. The fanfics area is generally very positive, I doubt they'd RAEG against the story/writer because it didn't give them total fanservice.

It'd probably depend on who wrote it.

And I'm not sure how it could be written in a way that'd make it interesting...

[Pick]

Yeah, some people would be outright ignored because they're annoying.

HARSH TRUTH

[Ford Prefect]

And I'm not sure how it could be written in a way that'd make it interesting...

Honestly Ryan, think about what you just said. Rye is perhaps even more pretentious than I am, and so even more likely to present a story which is designed to make people on this board (and others) ask themselves the question 'what if everything I thought was true, wasn't?'. This applies to both athiests and believers, as the central premise is that God exists and he's racking off. And you can still have explosions and so on in such a story.

[Ford Prefect]

that's been done to death jesus

i know orz

but if god had giant robots

how could he defeat tanks ford? how

we are back to square one

science and engineering solves all problems while ignoring the ones which actually matter

Honestly, it's pretty much guaranteed that the third book of The Salvation War will be the best, because as I hear it it will be set after humanity has triumphed, and thus deal with problems which you can't just shoot and be done with it. Setting aside the actual quality of writing for the moment, this is at least potentially interesting. I don't know if Stuart will handle the consequences of humanity conquering heaven and hell particularly well (going by Jung's descriptions of how trivial hell comes across in general, not just in combat), but at least conceptually it's better than rolling up some Baldricks on the left flank or whatever. Of course a lot of the impact of 'hey, guys, we just killed God' is lessened by the fact that he's just a delusional idiot ape. Killing God the Creator means something; killing God the Tinpot Dictator of Heavenstan seems like a hugely elaborate troll.

[Ford Prefect]

Actually, this a serious question about Armageddon: the first sentence of the story has Satan give his name as 'Satan Mekratrig'. I can't say I'm hugely familiar with all the ins and outs of Judeo-Christian daemonolgical apocrypha, and I'm wondering where the last name Mekratrig came from. I don't think I've ever seen it outside of Armageddon.

[Duckie]

Why would he have a last name in the first place? I mean, last names are a human and familial concept. He should be named whatever the platonic ideal of 'light bringer' is. The Adamic Ur-Sprach from which the Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European languages are but pale reflections, which actually embodies the universal concept of 'bringer of light'.

Or if that name is stripped from him, the same thing but with a new phrase.

[KroLazuxy_87]

A Google search turned up fruitless, mostly links back to SDN. Some other things that mentioned it were vague and may have just been referring the same one we're looking for an origin of.

[Ford Prefect]

Why would he have a last name in the first place? I mean, last names are a human and familial concept. He should be named whatever the platonic ideal of 'light bringer' is. The Adamic Ur-Sprach from which the Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European languages are but pale reflections, which actually embodies the universal concept of 'bringer of light'.

Or if that name is stripped from him, the same thing but with a new phrase.

On that line of thinking, why would Satan have a name at all, apart from the one which we give him? The idea of a name might be totally meaningless to an angel. That's not really a reply to my question, I'm just wondering where Stuart got 'Mekratrig' from.

personally i err on the side of really long names like the salarians from mass effect

[Instant Sunrise]

you know what guys, i can ignore any and all criticism of my writing because the surface details that I use are kinda sorta similar to something in real life.

THEREFORE Reality is Unrealistic in my story about the US MILITARY (OOH RAH!) completely wrecking the shit of the literal forces of hell.

This excuses anything, even the comments about the shallow characterizations, throwaway characters being nothing more than author's mouthpieces, needless references to personal hobbyhorses of mine, the author, and subplots which are barely masked infodumps about irrelevant side details that do nothing but slow down the main plot.

[Dooey Jo]

If I wrote Armageddon, I'd call them "Satan Svensson", and "Yahweh Johnson", and "Jesus Hosanna Davidson" and and "Luficer Devilson".

it would be pretty rad guys

[Ford Prefect]

THEREFORE Reality is Unrealistic

Unfortunately you just lost all legitimacy. Yes, even when making an obvious troll post, linking to the TV Tropes wiki makes you a git.

[Rye]

Why would he have a last name in the first place? I mean, last names are a human and familial concept. He should be named whatever the platonic ideal of 'light bringer' is. The Adamic Ur-Sprach from which the Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European languages are but pale reflections, which actually embodies the universal concept of 'bringer of light'.

Or if that name is stripped from him, the same thing but with a new phrase.

Satan comes from jew words for "accuser". The Lucifer thing is a fuck up.

[Losonti Tokash]

Yeah, it's a name for the Morning Star, which is another way to say "hey look it's Venus in the morning!" I don't remember the specific story about how that came to mean Satan, unfortunately.

[Rye]

Yeah, it's a name for the Morning Star, which is another way to say "hey look it's Venus in the morning!" I don't remember the specific story about how that came to mean Satan, unfortunately.

There's a bit in Isaiah where someone tells someone else to pass on a parable to Nebuchadnezzar, and that parable has whatever deity or divinity the writers associated with Venus (the planet, not the goddess obv). The light bringer gets cast down and dies in the grave (gets a bed of worms and such) for being too big for his boots. I have seen it associated with a less murdertastic story involving Athtar (another morning star) from the same area, who took the throne of Baal when Baal was busy.

"Thereupon Athtar the Fierce
Goes up to the crags of Saphon;
He takes is seat on the throne of Ba'al the Mighty.
His feet do not reach the footstool,
His head does not reach the top thereof.
Then Athtar the Fierce declares, '
I may not be king on the crags of Saphon'.
Athtar the Fierce comes down,
Down from the throne of Ba'al the Mighty,
And he becomes King over the whole vast underground."

Note also that Saphon, or Zaphon as it appears in the Bible (again in Isaiah) is the olympus-like area where all the gods assemble in both mythologies. The Sabeans of Sheba also recognize Athtar, but he is superseded by Almaqah, the planet Venus. On the Shabwat inscription Athtar is the father of Sin, a Sabean moon-god. These two deities also appear as nearly related in the Babylonian legend of Ishtar’s descent to the Underworld, where Ishtar is regarded as the daughter of the god Sin. So from that you can see why the morning star in Isaiah could end up this archetypal evil deity who runs the underworld; but Satan, remember, was merely the equivalent of a prosecutor in God's court before he evolved into a fallen angel and the rest of it.

[Duckie]

In Latin, Lucifer is a cooler name than Satanas. It also has the benefit of not being a greek loan that requires you remember how to decline greek nouns. Therefore he's Lucifer.

Fuck you whoever just read that as "Loosiffer'. It's "Lucifer". Pronounced like "Luke ih fer"