The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Surlethe]

Well, I suppose if you're an experienced swimmer who's been swimming across fast rivers for thousands of years, you could manage to swim across a river with a fast current with reasonable precision. So, by analogy, highly experienced angels or demons could open portals from Heaven to Hell or back. But, of course, this doesn't apply to humans, who have been in the portal business for all of six months.

[erik_t]

Who cares? We have access to millions of demons who all seem to have the same capabilities of nephilim. And they can live on Earth as long as we require them to. We don't even need Naga or anything; the kidling who tortured whatshername in the psychiatric hospital is all we need.

[Jamesfirecat]

Who cares? We have access to millions of demons who all seem to have the same capabilities of nephilim. And they can live on Earth as long as we require them to. We don't even need Naga or anything; the kidling who tortured whatshername in the psychiatric hospital is all we need.

That's only showing the ability to make psychic contact between two different planes of existance not open a portal between them. Nagas and Gorgons seem to be the only types of deamons that can naturally open portals large enough for others to go through and Naga's seem to better at it and can't naturally turn a room full of marines into their own private army just by spitting darts at them. Thus why we should probably go with Nagas, the fact that they're appernelty better at opening portals is just gravy...

[erik_t]

Again, who cares? Human nephilim cannot open portals unassisted. Trading them for Joe Baldrick would be a net change of zero.

[Jamesfirecat]

Again, who cares? Human nephilim cannot open portals unassisted. Trading them for Joe Baldrick would be a net change of zero.

Did you miss the part where the first plauge is killing off a large number of human Nephilim on earth? Micheal is trying to cut off our ability to strike at him and we need to maintain that ability.


I will risk Godwin's law and say that Micheal's position is comparative to Winston Churchill/Britian in the summer of 1940, while humanity is Germany. If we can find a way to bring our armies to bear against his in a direct contest then it's game over.

So his only hope is to make sure we can't do that. Brittian achieved this by having an airforce and navey which would wreck any German attempt to launch an amphibious assult. Likewise the first plauge is designed to wipe out all/most of the Nephilim on earth since its easier to open a portal from earth to Heaven than from Hell to Heaven.

Since we've lost many of our own portal openers we can either solider on with what's left or try to refil our ranks. I think that the smartter move would be to try and refil our ranks with nagas opperating from Earth rather than letting all of the burden fall on kitten once again..

[GrayAnderson]

Well, do also remember that we're going to keep about 10% of the infected (yes, that's a major loss) plus the stack of hidden ones. One suspects that if everybody has been double-dealing, the losses will be bad-but-not-atrocious.

Two questions:
1) Other than securing his position, does Michael care about the war with humanity? As in, does he care about the war for the sake of the war?
2) Does Michael have the ability to "strengthen" someone who is undead so they could survive on Earth? I ask partly because I got an implication of a very short deadline for returning someone to one of the "other" realms earlier, while now I've read that it's more like a few hours. I also ask because of that threat which, bluster or not, makes one wonder.

[FireNexus]

Did you miss the part where the first plauge is killing off a large number of human Nephilim on earth? Micheal is trying to cut off our ability to strike at him and we need to maintain that ability.

You're missing the point. Any Baldrick has the ability to do exactly what a nephilim can do. Nephilim can only open portals due to technological assistance, so it stands to reason that a baldrick could do the same.

[Jamesfirecat]

You're missing the point. Any Baldrick has the ability to do exactly what a nephilim can do. Nephilim can only open portals due to technological assistance, so it stands to reason that a baldrick could do the same.

Okay maybe so, but nagas are obviously the best Baldricks for opening portals since we know they can do it without our equipment (they just do better with something to help them boost the signal) so clearly if we want to minimize the nubmer of portal opening Baldricks we want to keep tabs on using nagas would let us open the biggest portals and keep them open for the longest amount of time...

[Stuart]

Other than securing his position, does Michael care about the war with humanity? As in, does he care about the war for the sake of the war?

Spoiler

This story too shal be told..........

Does Michael have the ability to "strengthen" someone who is undead so they could survive on Earth? I ask partly because I got an implication of a very short deadline for returning someone to one of the "other" realms earlier, while now I've read that it's more like a few hours. I also ask because of that threat which, bluster or not, makes one wonder.

Michael doesn't have the ability to strengthen dead humans to live on Earth, they're still limited to a few hours. However, there's no reason why Kim Il-Sung couldn't rule North Korea from Hell. Cynics might say there's not much difference between the two.

[EdBecerra]

Michael doesn't have the ability to strengthen dead humans to live on Earth, they're still limited to a few hours. However, there's no reason why Kim Il-Sung couldn't rule North Korea from Hell. Cynics might say there's not much difference between the two.

That sort of begs the question, doesn't it?

Michael might not have the ability -- but does that ability exist, or can it be created? We know we're genetically similar to the baldrics, aside from those energy generating cells. Anything that can be done in or by nature can be copied by the hand of man. Sufficient study of the baldrics should show what SPECIFIC action by those cells keep the baldrics alive here on Earth, then the effect can be duplicated externally, rather like those folks (admittedly few in number at the moment) who go about wearing an externally powered artificial heart or external kidney.

It would be damned awkward at first, and really rather pointless - I mean, Barney Clark, with his artificial heart, lasted only 112 days and was limited to a hospital bed, but in the end, it's a matter of how many researchers you throw at the problem.

A ... "Hell suit" (for want of a better phrase), that would allow a person to survive the hostile environment of earth. I expect NASA might like to work on that...

Ed.

[Rahvin]

Michael doesn't have the ability to strengthen dead humans to live on Earth, they're still limited to a few hours. However, there's no reason why Kim Il-Sung couldn't rule North Korea from Hell. Cynics might say there's not much difference between the two.

That sort of begs the question, doesn't it?

Michael might not have the ability -- but does that ability exist, or can it be created? We know we're genetically similar to the baldrics, aside from those energy generating cells. Anything that can be done in or by nature can be copied by the hand of man. Sufficient study of the baldrics should show what SPECIFIC action by those cells keep the baldrics alive here on Earth, then the effect can be duplicated externally, rather like those folks (admittedly few in number at the moment) who go about wearing an externally powered artificial heart or external kidney.

It would be damned awkward at first, and really rather pointless - I mean, Barney Clark, with his artificial heart, lasted only 112 days and was limited to a hospital bed, but in the end, it's a matter of how many researchers you throw at the problem.

A ... "Hell suit" (for want of a better phrase), that would allow a person to survive the hostile environment of earth. I expect NASA might like to work on that...

Ed.

Not necessarily.

Remember the example Stuart gave us of the Baldrick tridents? Those manufactured in Hell behave differently from identical units manufactures on Earth - the laws of physics in the two Universes are subtly different. Not to mention we're basically in the dark about deceased humans - how they get to hell, why their bodies stick around middle-age, how they replace mass and survive without eating, or what the hell the "energy" they lose when on Earth is. It may be that we'll have no artificial means of supplying that "energy" on Earth, that it could be strictly a native property of the afterlife universes that's not portable to ours.

[Samuel]

*Speaking of which, if Homo Erectus and other early Homo had souls and went to Hell, might they make up the majority of Hell's population, instead of humans? They were around for 10 times as long as humans have been.

Yeah, but their population was much lower. They probably didn't exceed a couple million max.

We can make more nephilim. We just need nine months

[EdBecerra]

Not necessarily.

Remember the example Stuart gave us of the Baldrick tridents? Those manufactured in Hell behave differently from identical units manufactures on Earth - the laws of physics in the two Universes are subtly different. Not to mention we're basically in the dark about deceased humans - how they get to hell, why their bodies stick around middle-age, how they replace mass and survive without eating, or what the hell the "energy" they lose when on Earth is. It may be that we'll have no artificial means of supplying that "energy" on Earth, that it could be strictly a native property of the afterlife universes that's not portable to ours.

Air isn't native to the moon. But we gather it on Earth, then take it with us when we go to visit.

Invent a "Hell suit", made of materials gathered in Hell, manufacture it in Hell, and charge it with energies gathered in Hell. Just like the tridents the baldrics carry.

Of course, you have to get a good industrial base going in Hell first.

If nothing else, it should be one interesting experiment...

Ed.

[EdBecerra]

Yeah, but their population was much lower. They probably didn't exceed a couple million max.

We can make more nephilim. We just need nine months

Oh, I can see the patriotic advertisements for that - "Do your duty to your country and your world... Bed a nephilim!"



And of course, the government-sponsored nephilim dating services, to get one neph to meet another neph, thereby raising the odds of a neph child.

Could get... interesting.

Ed.

[Samuel]

That wasn't what I meant. They are children of hybrids with devils so...

[Jamesfirecat]

That wasn't what I meant. They are children of hybrids with devils so...

So in other words what the message should read is "Do you part sleep with a sucubus..." I can just imagine men lining up to do their "duty" or are sucubui the one kind of Bladrick that you don't get Nephs when you sleep with them....

Also once again given the nine month time laps, plus the several year time laps for the kids to learn to use their powers, it's probably much quicker just to conscript some Naga, which is apperently going to be the one string on my banjo in this issue until somebody tells me why it wouldn't work....

[EdBecerra]

That wasn't what I meant. They are children of hybrids with devils so...

Hmm.. as Bill Clinton noticed, the succubi can be kinda cute if you're not wearing your tin hat.

Wonder if the Moonlight Bunny Ranch in Nevada might get a call from Washington DC...

"You're being a little racist in your hiring practices - you should try and recruit a few succubi. Don't worry if they get pregnant, we'll take care of that. Oh, yes, we will."



Ed.

[Junghalli]

So in other words what the message should read is "Do you part sleep with a sucubus..." I can just imagine men lining up to do their "duty" or are sucubui the one kind of Bladrick that you don't get Nephs when you sleep with them....

Meh, you can always just do artificial insemination if there's a shortage of people sufficiently patriotic to get it on with some horned scaly beast.

It should be fairly irrelevant though. Nephilim get their abilities because they have Demon DNA, you now have actual Demons at your disposal so just use them.

[GrayAnderson]

Not necessarily.

Remember the example Stuart gave us of the Baldrick tridents? Those manufactured in Hell behave differently from identical units manufactures on Earth - the laws of physics in the two Universes are subtly different. Not to mention we're basically in the dark about deceased humans - how they get to hell, why their bodies stick around middle-age, how they replace mass and survive without eating, or what the hell the "energy" they lose when on Earth is. It may be that we'll have no artificial means of supplying that "energy" on Earth, that it could be strictly a native property of the afterlife universes that's not portable to ours.

Air isn't native to the moon. But we gather it on Earth, then take it with us when we go to visit.

Invent a "Hell suit", made of materials gathered in Hell, manufacture it in Hell, and charge it with energies gathered in Hell. Just like the tridents the baldrics carry.

Of course, you have to get a good industrial base going in Hell first.

If nothing else, it should be one interesting experiment...

Ed.

Well, I'm not sure what was causing the die-off. It might just be a property of this dimension; there is nothing saying that if you went another level or two "up" or "down" that "normal" humans would be able to survive (I mean, after all...the Heaven/Hell dimension is pretty uncomfortable for normal humans. Some of that is the gunk in the air, but I would not be shocked to see long-term exposure to Hell have adverse side-effects). It might be the air, but I just don't know.

As to the "begged question", that question certainly is begged. Another one: Are ghosts, according to the working mythology here, "real"? I ask because the almost always temporary nature of such apparitions, plus the presence of beings who seem to like screwing with humans, would certainly line up with what you have going on in-universe. It wouldn't seem to be too much of a stretch for a bored couple of demons (or angels) to arrange something in that vein; seeing how Michael is operating, it strikes me that with all of these portals, Michael (or someone else) could pull some real stunts off in this vein.

[Samuel]

This is Stuart. He likes mixing mythology into his stories and having it real

So I'm guessing yes.

[GrayAnderson]

Samuel,
What are his other major works (other than this trilogy)?

[Samuel]

Samuel,
What are his other major works (other than this trilogy)?

The Big One and the rest of the TBO series was written by him. The premise is Lord Halifax stages a coup in 1940 and makes peace with Germany.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-One-Stuart-Sl ... 1430304952

Seven years later the US army and Russian military are bogged down in grueling warfare with the Wehrmacht across Eastern Europe, the carrier fleet rains hell upon Western Germany and the Manhatten Project gone into overdrive and is mass producing bombs for one swift stroke.

The mythological element would be the immortals that pop up in later books. The first several are rather hard, but it diverges slightly and becomes more debatable with Crusade.

[Razaekel]

It looks now like the universe is something like a styrofoam ball. We live on the outside of granules, while Hell and Heaven exist on the inside of bubbles. We’re sort of in the same space but not quite. The implications are fascinating, there could be millions of Hells and Heavens out there.

Just to expand on this a bit, if we assume that Earth is located on the outside or close to the outside of this styrofoam ball with a relatively low energy level, and with Heaven and Hell located somewhat closer to the center and having a higher energy gradient, then by extrapolation there would be higher energy dimensions as one approaches the center, eventually culminating in a central source of energy that presumably leaks downwards through the 'planes'. The Hellmouth and Sunnydale? Either way, it would be interesting to see if there was some way to get into one of these higher energy planes. It would probably need to be attempted from Hell, since if the energy gradient between Earth and Hell makes the gates hard to open, it'd probably be damn near impossible to get from Earth to an even higher plane. The advantages of being at an even higher plane would mean easier access to the lower planes, like Heaven, instead of 'cutting across the current', so to speak. Of course, there is the slight requirement of needing a sensitive in the higher plane to open the line of communication, and how one would get said sensitive there might make for an interesting sidestory.

[EdBecerra]

We know that the dead can't return to Earth. Not for long, at least.

But can they go from Hell to Heaven and vice versa without energy loss?

Ed.

[GrayAnderson]

I think they can (Michael seems to have been pulling this off) if they use something like the Heavengate/Hellgate.

Razaekel,
I think a higher plane might also be nigh on impossible to reach for normal humans for the same time that in D&D one doesn't want to spend too much time in the positive energy dimension: The energy may be good, but it can still overwhelm you. Likewise, there might be a distance in that direction that earth-based humans are limited to (as dead humans are also clearly limited).

We might also be limited in the other direction as well (that is, explaining lower-energy planes). This might also explain why any beings from "further on down" don't make themselves known: They've got some kind of distance limit themselves (perhaps one or two planes in each direction safely for a somewhat-extended period of time, and one more temporarily).