The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Chlodwig]

My guess would be the UN to. Its an 'international' Target and one that is shown a lot in the movies.

One other thing I am beginning to wonder at is long term changes. Assuming Humanity wins My guess is that earth becomes irelevant in about 30-50 Years. Its already shown that capital is moving into Hell (and later Heaven probably) by people not inheriting when they die. This will probably lead to all kinds of fun when the current generation notices that they can't step into the shoes of their parents simply because those shoes are never emptied....
In the very long term I guess that earth will simply become a breeding-area because second lifers cant get children. Otherwise my guess would be that everything important ist going to move to Heaven or Hell in the long run.

[Chris OFarrell]

Why didn't the HEA just teleport into Israel and waste the beast anyway?

It takes time to assemble a unit, get it ready to move in and open up portals so that it canmove into the required positions. Divisions are big - one in road march configuration stretched for 18 plus miles. So, to move a division means that it has to assemble for the move, get into the appropriate formation and then go through the portal to the desired point. It's a very fast way of moving strategically but it still takes time to set up. The Scarlet Beast attack on Jerusalem just didngive enough time. The F-111 attack was easier; the aircraft just flew through a portal into hell and then out through one to the desired place. Most aircraft base outside Hell to try and cut down on the wear and tear inflicted on their airframe and engines.

Can we presume then that Petraeus has formed a number of agile, say, Battalion sized units for rapid response then? If you make it pure shooters without any logistics trail, and have someone place a portal beacon in the AO, you could probably move a solid force very quickly into an area, fully loaded with enough munitions and fuel to engage a target like a Scarlet beast in a matter of minutes if they are on alert.

Its preparing to fight the 'last' war, but it would make sense given that their strategy is to drop the elements of the human army in via portal enmass around the expected Host when it comes down to play that they might have rapid response units ready to blunt an attack, or deal with another 'super unit'.

[Simon_Jester]

To tell the truth, now that you've suggested it, I'm surprised Petraeus didn't do it after the Fort Bragg attack. And I'd expect it to happen now...

[Chris OFarrell]

Don't worry, I'm sure Congress well after the fact will ask why he didn't for all of us

[JBG]

Mmm. New York...

My bet, assuming Michael knows about humans in general, is not Statue of Liberty or anything which is generally American. They are familiar or perhaps even slightly iconic globally, but mostly those targets only have significant importance to Americans.

Who, while holding lots of influence, is less than getting all humans furious.

Squish the UN HQ and you get people riled up.
Not because of any actual damage, but because of symbolic value of target.

Not really.

The "Useless Nitwits" have been sidelined. Adults have taken over. This is too serious to leave to an organisation that can appoint Zimbabwe, without a blink, to the chair of the economic sustainability committee.

[Darth Wong]

My guess would be the UN to. Its an 'international' Target and one that is shown a lot in the movies.

I doubt their targeting is that accurate anyway. I mentioned Goldman-Sachs HQ just because I hoped one of the rocks from a largely random airdrop would hit it, not because I thought they had pinpoint targeting.

[Bayonet]

Squish the UN HQ and you get people riled up.

And some of us would vote him a medal.

[Bayonet]

Can we presume then that Petraeus has formed a number of agile, say, Battalion sized units for rapid response then? If you make it pure shooters without any logistics trail, and have someone place a portal beacon in the AO, you could probably move a solid force very quickly into an area, fully loaded with enough munitions and fuel to engage a target like a Scarlet beast in a matter of minutes if they are on alert.

You could get a platoon sized unit, kept on alert like a fire brigade, on target in minutes if you could get a portal open quickly enough. A battalion sized Rapid Reaction Force would take closer to an hour to get on scene.

[Chris OFarrell]

A Battalion divided up by companies is what I meant, so you could have least 1 Company ready and others on various standby/stand up/stand down modes.

And a Battalion of pure shooters is only what, 60-70 vehicles, if mixed with tanks and IFVs? That isn't going to take an hour to get up and rolling if they are all on standby with multiple battalions cycled through the 'active rapid response' position.

Portals make getting ready for a road march a far easier thing, you don't HAVE to wait for the supply train and support elements to get up and ready to go. So long as your vehicles are all topped up, loaded and crewed, you can open the portal and roll them in a matter of minutes, not that different from a Bomber ready alert and hitting The Button. All you need is open space to roll through on the other side and you're good to go.

[CyrilsScribe]

Reminds me of a SAC alert, and they could be anywhere quite quickly with at least a few planes, and as a bonus you do not have to worry about a BROKEN ARROW situation. Portals would make rapid reaction much easier, as you technically are not traveling any distance at all (omitting the distance to the portal).

[Tiwaz]

Not really.

The "Useless Nitwits" have been sidelined. Adults have taken over. This is too serious to leave to an organisation that can appoint Zimbabwe, without a blink, to the chair of the economic sustainability committee.

Name better target to get global response.

Statue of Liberty? Only relevant to tiny fraction of humanity.
Empire State Building? Same.
Name any other "American" target in NY and you get same response.

Reality is that UN will still be the major player in international politics.
Little club run by handful of states under Yamantau will not have the muscle to make rest of the world follow it's lead just like that.

They can negotiate under the rock, but ultimately since rest of world is kept out from the tiny club, they feel no need to follow ANY decisions made there.

I think most of you people do not understand the importance of representation.
No representation, no motivation to follow decisions.

Yamantau club cannot run the planet as they wish, and they know they cannot afford to start waging war to get support from rest of nations. They have to negotiate. And only place where you can make such negotiations with sizeable portion of world at the same time is...

The UN.

As for Zimbabwe. So fucking what? Do they get actual POWER with that chair? No? So why would it be relevant?

[Shroom Man 777]

Um, mang?

The Yamantau Club is composed of the largest militaries on Earth, controls the HEA, and has in its members basically the main players of the Salvation War. And, also, many of the Yamantau Club members also happen to be part of the UN Security Council?

Yeah, yeah, the UN is important to get the help and support of all the other tiny nations out there in the world. But the Yamantau Club is where the big boys, in the UN and elsewhere, are at and they have been the ones doing most of the heavy lifting since the Salvation War broke out.

[Simon_Jester]

I would argue that Tiwaz is right that the UN is important as a high-profile target, but wrong in saying that the UN is important to the function of the war.

There are plenty of ways for nations to communicate without using the UN building, and the UN is totally unsuited to organizing large military forces for a major war. They just don't have the expertise to handle it, so they don't (note that the Hell Expeditionary Army is not under UN control). In this situation, even the complete loss of the UN as an institution would do relatively little damage to the war effort.

[Tiwaz]

Um, mang?

The Yamantau Club is composed of the largest militaries on Earth, controls the HEA, and has in its members basically the main players of the Salvation War. And, also, many of the Yamantau Club members also happen to be part of the UN Security Council?

Yeah, yeah, the UN is important to get the help and support of all the other tiny nations out there in the world. But the Yamantau Club is where the big boys, in the UN and elsewhere, are at and they have been the ones doing most of the heavy lifting since the Salvation War broke out.

And Armies run on logistics, supply and whole lot of other stuff.

Yamantau club can pull wicked punch without the rest, but if they are all there is to do it.

They can't do jack shit.

Yamantau needs desperately support of those tiny countries. USA, Russia and China might have huge portion of global military power, but without support that military machine grinds to a halt.

To obtain this support, they have to deal with tiny nations. And tiny nations want their voice heard on everything.

Alternatives are, either turn Yamantau club into new UN, or go to UN to get support.

Because doing bilateral deals with every goddamn non-Yamantau nation on the globe is not viable.

UN does not handle anything, Simon, you are mistaken in thinking UN should do anything.

UN is forum where you can address the nations who can do things. This is common mistake regarding UN, people imagine it is some kind of entity when all it is is place where every nation can go with their issues to address rest of the world.

UN cannot run anything, but nations which form it can. And UN offers immediate access to negotiations with all of them.

[Simon_Jester]

And Armies run on logistics, supply and whole lot of other stuff. Yamantau club can pull wicked punch without the rest, but if they are all there is to do it. They can't do jack shit.

And all those countries are going to just shrug and walk away from a war that has been declared against all of humanity because the UN isn't running the war effort? That would be an incredibly stupid thing for them to do, so I don't think it's even slightly wrong that Stuart hasn't written it that way.

I mean, I'm not actually sure what you're saying here. Are you saying the war effort would break down without the UN? That this makes the UN a good target for weakening the war effort? Or are you just saying "well, countries need to talk to each other, and they can talk in the UN?"

UN does not handle anything, Simon, you are mistaken in thinking UN should do anything.
UN is forum where you can address the nations who can do things. This is common mistake regarding UN, people imagine it is some kind of entity when all it is is place where every nation can go with their issues to address rest of the world.
UN cannot run anything, but nations which form it can. And UN offers immediate access to negotiations with all of them.

Well, the UN does run some things- small things. As a forum it's valuable, but it isn't unique: if everything even remotely tied to the UN vanished tomorrow, people could just send new ambassadors to a new organization and start over.

[[R_H]]

Squish the UN HQ and you get people riled up.
Not because of any actual damage, but because of symbolic value of target.

You're kidding right? A lot Americans aren't exactly fans of the UN, if you haven't noticed. I don't know if that goes for other nationalities. Perhaps Americans would get riled up because it was an attack on American soil, but it's a stretch to say people would get riled up on a global scale.

[Darth Wong]

Squish the UN HQ and you get people riled up.
Not because of any actual damage, but because of symbolic value of target.

You're kidding right? A lot Americans aren't exactly fans of the UN, if you haven't noticed. I don't know if that goes for other nationalities.

Keep in mind that Michael is not concerned about all humans: he is concerned primarily with the humans' threat forces, which are dominated by the HEA members and the United States in particular. This idea of angering humans and driving them to blind rage is only relevant to the forces that would actually be attacking and entering Heaven.

[Shroom Man 777]

Without the UN, countries can still have various relations with each other and form agreements and so on and so forth. It isn't mutually exclusive, and like what Simon says, nations don't need a UN to get things going. Nations will just have to communicate with each other in a less convenient way, through a crapload of embassies and ambassadors and red phones rather than a pretty little convenient clubhouse.

And Armies run on logistics, supply and whole lot of other stuff.

Yamantau club can pull wicked punch without the rest, but if they are all there is to do it.

They can't do jack shit.

Yamantau needs desperately support of those tiny countries. USA, Russia and China might have huge portion of global military power, but without support that military machine grinds to a halt.

To obtain this support, they have to deal with tiny nations. And tiny nations want their voice heard on everything.

And Hell, plus interdimensional portal technology, is something of a very hot topic and can give nations all sorts of advantages in not just war but in logistics and other civilian applications. Currently it's the USA, and the Yamantau Club, that's got their hands on interdimensional stuff. Not to mention, access to all the dead people in the universe.

So, the other nations of the UN might want to play nice with the Yamantau Club nations who hold a very decisive resource in their hands? Because playing nice means that the Yamantau Club guys will share it with tiny little nations like Timbuktu?

And because it's the Yamantau Club nations that're going to kill God and save humanity from getting sky-volcanoes and supertornadoes thrown at it? So those other tiny UN nations are going to need the Yamantau Club to do that, because they sure as hell can't kill God themselves, and thus it would also be in their best interests to bend over to the Yamantau Club?

[[R_H]]

Squish the UN HQ and you get people riled up.
Not because of any actual damage, but because of symbolic value of target.

You're kidding right? A lot Americans aren't exactly fans of the UN, if you haven't noticed. I don't know if that goes for other nationalities.

Keep in mind that Michael is not concerned about all humans: he is concerned primarily with the humans' threat forces, which are dominated by the HEA members and the United States in particular. This idea of angering humans and driving them to blind rage is only relevant to the forces that would actually be attacking and entering Heaven.

I edited my post before I saw that you had replied to it, sorry about that. I think the edit reflects what you're saying though. If the attack were precise enough destroy the UN HQ and in doing so only cause minimal collateral damage, would that be enough to get to rile up American opinion?

[Bayonet]

And a Battalion of pure shooters is only what, 60-70 vehicles, if mixed with tanks and IFVs? That isn't going to take an hour to get up and rolling if they are all on standby with multiple battalions cycled through the 'active rapid response' position.

Not just get up and rolling. Get the call for action, decide where they're going, perform a recon, issue the appropriate maps and orders.

[JN1]

I think the countries that actually matter, i.e those represented at Yamantau, would not care a great deal if the UN building were to be destroyed, though no doubt they would care about damage to NYC.
If we are to take a look at the countries that matter to the prosecution of the war I'd say that the majority of them are either represented at Yamantau, or are members of other organisations like NATO, ASEAN, FPDA etc, who all have close relations with those on the Yamantau council.

In some ways what we see at Yamantau is almost a world government. Those nations not represented directly will seek to have their interests served by a nation that is on the council.

If we want to spend the rest of the war debating about what we should do then by all means let the UN get involved, if we actually want to get things done then leave it in the hands of the Yamantau Council.

[CyrilsScribe]

The UN charter specifically states that it is designed to:

"Develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace"

It is not specifically designed to be a fighting force, more like a police, note:

"suppression of acts of aggression"-not destruction

I believe the UN is designed to be a police force and a forum to represent the "small states" the first and third world countries that do not have the weight to bludgeon others into support. Certainly the destruction of the UN would be hateful and is one of the best ways to fracture the admittedly fragile world peace in the Salvation War, humans do like to fight amongst themselves, philosophically and physically.

*Thanks to www.un.org for quotes

[Darth Wong]

The Americans corrupted the original meaning of the UN back during the Korean War. That's when the two divergent visions of the UN sprung up:

1) The original idea: that the UN should promote international diplomacy and cooperation as a goal unto itself.

2) America's revised idea: that the UN should serve as a sort of global police organization.

That's why most Americans think the UN is a failure. It's doing job #1, not job #2, and that means it's "useless".

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not sure I agree with your take on it. The problem is passages like:

"to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest"

from the Preamble to the UN Charter, or:

"to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace,"

which is listed among its purposes in Chapter 1, Article 1.

In light of that, interpreting the UN as a policeman of last resort makes a bit more sense. Remember that attempts to prevent and remove threats to the peace during the interwar period failed horribly when the League of Nations tried it; the idea of a more muscular version of the League would not have been unreasonable at the time.

On top of that, I don't think it's a uniquely American idea to imagine that the UN was meant as a sort of 'successor state' to the WWII Allies. The phrase "United Nations" was commonly used during the war to describe the Allies; that's what they called themselves. So the fact that they continued to call themselves that after the war would seem to suggest some sense of continuity. And since the WWII Grand Alliance was very much a military undertaking, there's at least the implication that the same countries that took on the Axis would be willing to take on similar threats to the peace in the future, by force if necessary.

It didn't pan out because the Allies fell to feuding among themselves, but that doesn't mean that the UN was never meant as anything but a forum.

[GrayAnderson]

Well, it actually was a successor to the Allies: Being in the Allies was a prerequisite to joining in the initial round, and was a reason for at least a few of the "notional" declarations of war on Germany at the end (Turkey leaps to mind), declarations which had nothing to do with an actual commitment to the war and everything to do with being with the "right" guys when the war ended so they could join this new club.