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Despite this being one of the most common crossovers in existance for both series, the writers almost all fail to research how these worlds will interact, if at all.

In terms of how the Wizarding World interacts with the Supernatural World, the stories generally fit into several schools of thought:

1) Buffy and Co are subordinate to the Wizarding World - This is the most common, and most annoying. It assumes knowledge that has not been demonstrated and inverts the symbolism of Buffy. In a fanfic, it is equally important to get the facts straight as well as understand the symbolism involved in the series being written about. Without either of these, the story will fail. This type of blunder is without a doubt the most common.

2) First Contact - This is far more passable, where the crew of Buffy and the students of Hogwarts are learning about each other for the very first time. However, option 1 often rears it's ugly head as the Wizarding World will know of the Slayer, but dismiss it as a Myth. The best online stories generally follow this format, but the reaction given to the first contact is almost always positive, and almost always involves the Sunnydale crew integrating themselves into Wizard society, which is then fawned over for being so 'magical'. Again, a major problem.

After a fair amount of research as part of an attempt to convert the magic system of Harry Potter into a Unisystem Lite game (and succeeded rather well, I think), I posted a Coda on how to integrate the two worlds.

The First option: Don’t.

If the players (or writer) insist(s), there are several things need to taken into account:

First: The Wizarding World is seen mostly in Europe and follows European (especially English) magical traditions. Though it is called a "Wizarding World" very little influence from other cultures exist beyond the blindingly stereotypical.

Second: Both world are hidden, but approach it in different manners. Wizards are actively on the defense, whiping memories of any muggle that sees what they are not ment to. The Buffyverse relies on human stupidity and peer presure to hide itself. It also benifits that those who stick their noses where they don't belong have a good chance of being somethings' meal.

Third: Buffy/Angel’s Magic is very free-form and draws from multiple cultural lineages (Mostly European, but Asian forms do exist, as well as Psychics and other things, like Mexican Wrestlers), whereas Harry Potters is more ridged (and overly reliant upon it to a point nearing addiction in BtVS terms). Though Wizards can craft their own spells (Severus Snape creating one of my favorite combat spells), it follows the tradition of wand-waving and bastardized latin to a T. Buffyverse spells and magic have many schools, method and styles. Buffy also makes use of 'super-science'. Science so advanced it may as well be magic: Time-stopping devices built by college students; High-schoolers with the capacity to build human-like robot artifical intelligences; direct energy weapons both as short-range tasers, sniper-rifles and a satalight microwave death-ray.

Fourth: There are no references to the Old Ones or Gods in Harry Potter. This one is very important given that Buffy and Angel fight actively against their minions and occasionally true demons.

With these basic facts, as well as taking into account the numerous differences between the series, we can only assume that there has been little to no contact between the Wizarding World and the strange world of super science and sorcery Angel and Buffy inhabit.

This means that there has yet to be an official “First Contact” between them, and knowing Angel’s residences, this could end very badly.

But what is the extent of the Wizarding World? Is it even really a world?

In a sense, it is. If one assumes that Buffy and Angel Co-Exist with Harry Potter, it can deduce several things. Consider how much power (political (US President in pocket, lots of lawyers), magical (Run by True Demons, has teams of psychics, shamans and demons to call on), scientific (satellite-based microwave death-rays, direct energy sniper rifles), criminal (Mafia ties, etc.), etc) the Demons (Wolfram and Hart in particular) have in the world of Buffy and Angel and suddenly, it gives a new spin on the idea of Wizards hiding from the rest of the world. They are hiding not from the Muggles, but from the demons and the Old Ones.

To clarify the level of hiding involved, many of their locations are trans-dimensional, either small pocket dimensions involving Wizard Space (IE: The Quidditch World Cup) or full pocket dimensions (IE: Unplottable Places).

Also considering the aristocratic nature of the Wizarding World as well as its heavy focus in Europe, with that, we can deduce that Wizarding is limited only to Europe and its colonies. We’ve seen Wizarding populations in England, France, Bulgaria and Ireland. It is reasonable to assume that all of continental Europe houses hidden Wizard populations.

But what of the rest of the world?

Think of the many European Colonies constructed throughout the world, especially the British Empire. The British Empire has had colonies in the United States (but it is more than likely that most Wizards were loyalists to the crown), Canada, Hong Kong, Australia, India, South Africa and many other places. Watch how the Empire grew In comparison with Wizarding locations (1.Pink: colonies held by 1945, 2.Orange: Dominions, 3.Pink in Orange: colonies of Dominions, 4.Dark Red-Brown: areas lost by 1920, 5.Purple: Protectorates and Princely States (in India), 6.Lavender: areas lost by 1705 (England only), 7.Hachured: sphere of influence), and recall the extent of Napoleon’s hold on Egypt. Almost every place mentioned in the books are home to or once housed European occupation at one point in their history. In many of these places, however, European holds have been violently repulsed, thus consigning only minimal Wizard populations.

Also consider that native shamanisms and occult traditions differ vastly from that of the European Tradition of Harry Potter and it becomes rather clear how secretive this society is, especially considering that Hogwarts itself supports a minimum of 300 students for England. That implies quite a small population, considering there are at least 10 million people in Britain who are of similar age. Even if one assumes that there are 10 people per student at Hogwarts, there are still fewer Wizards than there are Jedi Knights in England by more than a factor of 10, as per the Jedi Sensus phenomena.

What does this all mean for a first contact situation between a Hogwarts Student and a Slayer?

They may get along, not realizing the implications of this meeting, but older (or smarter) wizards would pick up on what a Slayer means (and how the things they hide from follow them).

One thing you fail to mention is that Potter and Buffy are, more or less, the same age. It's something nobody ever fucking mentions, and I'd think it rather important.

considering that Hogwarts itself supports a minimum of 300 students for England.

This analysis is shaky, since we know that many families are sent to learn abroad (In the fashion of boarding schools). Malfoy mentioned how he almost went to Durmstrang in GoF.
In addition there may very well be other English schools what with Hagrid's comments about how "Harry, ya'll go to the very best wizarding school there is" "Hogwarts", a statement which not only has the existence of other schools but heavily implies there existence in the UK (Since its doubtful that he'd even consider African shamans as candidates, and him sending Harry to Germany or France is unlikely as a consideration). This also fits in with the fact that Hogwarts is apparently a private boarding school, there is a (minimal) fee, and the best teachers in Europe (And the best headmaster, how many public [for Americans, in Brit speak however public & private are reversed] schools do you know of that have a former "Noble laureate, knighted Secretary of the UN" teaching as head

Singular Quartet wrote:One thing you fail to mention is that Potter and Buffy are, more or less, the same age. It's something nobody ever fucking mentions, and I'd think it rather important.

Yes, this is true. Buffy was born in January, 1981, and Harry, according to official timelines, was born in July, 1980. In actuality, Harry is a little older than Buffy.

This analysis is shaky, since we know that many families are sent to learn abroad (In the fashion of boarding schools). Malfoy mentioned how he almost went to Durmstrang in GoF.

Yes, this analysis does not take into account homeschooling. It would still fall short (assuming that there half as many homeschooled students as Hogwarts students, which is a rather generous assumption given modern comparisons).

This statement also curtails your own assesment below.

In addition there may very well be other English schools what with Hagrid's comments about how "Harry, ya'll go to the very best wizarding school there is" "Hogwarts", a statement which not only has the existence of other schools but heavily implies there existence in the UK (Since its doubtful that he'd even consider African shamans as candidates, and him sending Harry to Germany or France is unlikely as a consideration).

But do compare this statement with your own assement of Dumbledore, and also take into account Hagrid's personal bias. This is not good enough to establish the existence of other schools.

This also fits in with the fact that Hogwarts is apparently a private boarding school, there is a (minimal) fee,

And orphan Tom Riddle was able to get in via financial aid.

and the best teachers in Europe (And the best headmaster, how many public [for Americans, in Brit speak however public & private are reversed] schools do you know of that have a former "Noble laureate, knighted Secretary of the UN" teaching as head:)

Even if there are other schools in England (which I doubt) it would be impossible to make speculation on them without any data.

Is there concrete canon proof of the 1980 DOB? I've never seen it before while I was reading. You could shift the Potter DOB to 1986/87, though (some fics I've read use 1998 as first year, which I personally prefer).

Good analysis, though. Very textbook-ish too.



And now, a... no, not a rant... an airing of grievances:

I've always been bugged by the systematic and pan-societal lack of logic (reason, due process, etc.) in the Potterverse. Snape and the goblins may just be the most logical people out there, apart from Snape's hatred of Potter (how the hell can a child, who was never raised by his father, be similar to his father?).

The insanity (yes, damnit, insanity!) may be chalked to the fact that the HP books were originally for kids, and JKR did not want to sketch out a full society, and additionally, she may have wanted an eccentric one to interest kids, and I can accept that. It still bugs me though. Most fanfic writers copy this, though, and that truly bugs me. If I were to write a fic (my fiction skills are damned non-existent, and I don't like writing fiction anyways, so don't ask) would be more close to Tolkien's approach to world-building (language-wanking, mythos-wanking aside). Completely different from our world, but similar in that one could relate to the Tolkienian world (as Tolkien never really bothered to psychoanalyze his characters anyways).

In fact, IF I were to write a HP fic about the whole magical/normal thing, I'd prefer to use Mercedes Lackey's approach of integrating the magical and normal worlds (in the SERRAted Edge novels, for example); full integration with the option of isolation. I remember one HP fic on this board which addressed some of the issues.

And I've run out of steam. Bah... Cursed school.

Regarding schools: I don't see why there wouldn't be other schools even in England, let alone the entire British Isles. Surely not every kid would go to Hogwarts, right? Then the school wouldn't be "prestigious." Can't let the rabble in, after all. Plus, the population can't be that small, so as to allow every magical child into one school. Inter-breeding isn't that big of an issue, from what I can read (JKR doesn't talk about it, so it's not canon, but a reader might be able to guess about it). So, yes, my guess is that there would be other, but less prestigious public (in the British sense) schools out there on the British Isles, but are so bad that they can be ignored in comparison to the Big Three.

North American schools might be more public (in the North American sense) though, but my guess is that the British wizards ignore the colonial rabble (JKR mentions nothing about the Western Hemisphere, in fact).

pieman3141 wrote:Is there concrete canon proof of the 1980 DOB? I've never seen it before while I was reading. You could shift the Potter DOB to 1986/87, though (some fics I've read use 1998 as first year, which I personally prefer).

The best evidence for it is the set deathday for Nearly Headless Nick. I cannot recall it off hand, and I'm to tired to look it up...

The only problem with it is the occasional anacronism (Playstation being released earlier or some rubbish).

Good analysis, though. Very textbook-ish too.

Thanks.

Regarding schools: I don't see why there wouldn't be other schools even in England, let alone the entire British Isles. Surely not every kid would go to Hogwarts, right? Then the school wouldn't be "prestigious."

Sure it can, just on a wider scale (IE: 'world' as opposed to some backwater colony school).

Can't let the rabble in, after all.

Which is why the orphan Tom Riddle is such an interesting case.

Plus, the population can't be that small, so as to allow every magical child into one school. Inter-breeding isn't that big of an issue, from what I can read (JKR doesn't talk about it, so it's not canon, but a reader might be able to guess about it).

I do seem to recall discusion regarding a high amount of inter-relation between the major Wizarding families (IE: the Blacks and the Malfoys and the Lestranges and Tonks are all inter-related at least through marrige).

So, yes, my guess is that there would be other, but less prestigious public (in the British sense) schools out there on the British Isles, but are so bad that they can be ignored in comparison to the Big Three.

It's possible, but without confirmation, I dare not speculate on their existence. Either way, I doubt they outnumber the Jedi in England.

I've always wanted to do a "real world magic" campaign for an RPG where the cast (or one the cast members) believed themselves to be Jedi Knights--and could back it up with Force-like Powers...but no lightsabres...(or maybe magical ones).

I thought of something else too: ideologies. Religion(s). Surely there must be some sort of ideology driving politics beyond blood-purity. Seems that Conservatism is the main one (we gotta stick with Tradition!!... Tradition! Tradition!)

What do they believe in? Are they like Jedi, that claim the Force is sentient itself (most fanfic authors use this idea, from what I've seen), or do they use pagan religions? Christianity (their version)?

Why am I wondering about this? Because in Buffy, there's a whole lot of religious content. The government's involved too, and we can assume that the US government is similar to the real US government. Vampires are weakened by Holy Water and crosses, there's supernatural powers, etc. What about the Potterverse?

Ive always thought the Potter-verse schools ran on some sort of district type method. In HBP Dumbledore tells the lady that runs the orphanage that Tom Riddle lived in that he had been enrolled at birth, even though he and his mother seemed to have been cut off from the wizarding community since before his birth.
Also as a general rule students from England went to Hogwarts, though they could be sent to schools elswhere if their parents chose.
Im not sure this is relevant to the argument, but why are there only 3 schools involved in the Tri-Wizard tournament if there are others capable of producing viable competitors?