StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Well, if you came in, that means you probably understood what I'm going for. Here's the brief synopsis:

In the desert, Jesus was tempted by the devil. He was offered dominion over all the kingdoms of the earth. In this universe, for whatever reason, he takes the offer. Jesus starts wielding his own power on earth, and things get crazy fast.

Some portion of the angels of heaven come to his side, from Seraphim to Archangels, and he begins to start his 'millenial kingdom' right off the bat. Now instead of good vs. evil, its a 3-way fight, because Jesus and God (both equal in power) each think their way is right, and the Holy Ghost is just staying quiet. The world gets a much more dramatic place, as humans empowered with divine (or infernal) powers start causing interesting circumstances (like raining brimstone or calling down lightning). There's 100 years of 'total war' which wipes out 1/5 of the world and results in the final destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus moves his power base to Rome, and rules most of the former Roman Empire.

A thousand years later, the world is very different. Technology is at a rennaissance level (helped along by angels and a lack of a dark age), but at the same time the supernatural is very present, as angels, fallen angels, and demons, all live with and interact with people. God has started sending new prophets to 'unreached' parts of the world, like Scandinavia, Japan, southeast asia, and the Americas, and is cultivating empowered followers. Satan is doing similar things, and is doing better as he can actually point at the celestial war and say "you want to follow THAT?"

Its been a cold war for many years, with special operatives running around and turning demons or slaying angels (its possible, just not easy). All of a sudden, a new power is emerging, as the Holy Spirit has come back all of a sudden, and has his own agenda that isn't necessarily God's or Jesus' (Jesus is still alive, btw).

Now, I just need ideas and brainstorming on things to flesh it all out. I'm thinking of drawing on the Angeology works like the Key of Solomon and Kabbalistic texts (I've alreadey got some of both), but ideas like what society would look like, what sorts of fantastical things could kill demons or angels, and generally just crafting a world where the supernatural is completely natural would be a great help.

Might want to look into the vampire, werewolf and other myths and legends for ways to kill the supernatural, who knows, they may have a 'grain of truth' in your fiction.


Or maybe something along the lines of: humans were made in gods image, so with all this supernatural going on, would it be possible for people to unlock some hidden powers that were built on but not known.

Im reminded off Rifts here, SDC vs MDC, anyways, by unlocking so much of the supernatural what if magic itself became a real and viable sorce?

Zwinmar wrote:Might want to look into the vampire, werewolf and other myths and legends for ways to kill the supernatural, who knows, they may have a 'grain of truth' in your fiction.

That's a good thought. I'm thinking gold bullets for 'wounding' angels, but probably you'd need divine materials to do more.

Or maybe something along the lines of: humans were made in gods image, so with all this supernatural going on, would it be possible for people to unlock some hidden powers that were built on but not known.

Im reminded off Rifts here, SDC vs MDC, anyways, by unlocking so much of the supernatural what if magic itself became a real and viable sorce?

I'm trying to keep it on a divine/infernal slant, so whatever magic exists comes from the direct empowerment from a more powerful being. Of course, if they put their power into a weapon, they might not be able to easily get it back, or if someone else finds it, they could extract the power for their own use.

Cold Iron has always been a talisman against evil, same as silver.

God has a tendency to be stymied by iron. Particularly iron chariots, but any old iron will probably do....

Make sure that anything can be killed with a sufficient amount of conventional firepower. You might not be able to kill an angel with a musket or a sword, but a cannonball at close range ought to be able to take them apart nicely. Don't make them impervious to all nonmagical weapons: that way lies the No Limits Fallacy, and rabbits with sharp, pointy teeth.

Good old fashioned salt has been know to have a bad effect on magical ritual, IIRC.

If you want bible-style magic, do realize you'll have a lot of possessed people running around, and a lot of ritual sacrifice, mostly animal, but also human.

Also try looking into "sympathetic magic", Jacob canonically tried to use it too mooch sheep from Laban.

Alright, I've been hammering some details out on other boards, tell me what you think:

The main factions are Rome (ruled by Jesus), the Roman Frontiers (which have the support of God and his angels) and the 'far world' which is places like the Americas, southern Africa, and the far east.

Rome spans continental europe, Africa down to the sub-saharan regions, and the mideast, with some trading forts being set up along the Indus. Christ Caesar, the living God-Emperor of the world, is Rome's diety and sole object of worship, and rules from his capital city of Rome (Jerusalem was destroyed during the final battle of the 'Realms war' around 80 A.D. The Roman Empire is largely egalitarian, fair, and unoppressive, though some strictures of Jewish morality have been hammered into the people. All temples are dedicated to Jesus, and while he appreciates sacrifices and their part of the economy, he does not require them.

Many of the Legions are led by Angels, as many thousands (some say millions) flocked to his banner after he declared himself, but many angels and demons were destroyed in the Realms War, and in recent years by magic-wielding renegade factions. Very few Seraphim came over, which makes his forces somewhat weak, but loyal Citizens are often empowered by Jesus and can be just as powerful. Of important note of the Empire are the Tributary States of Brittania and the city of Byzantium.

Brittania is a 'free' province, and has been since Arthur Pendragon was aided by the half-demon Merlin in overthrowing the provincial King in the sixth century. Aided by divine and infernal powers, the garrisonning angels were driven from the island and Rome doesn't have the resources (or perhaps inclination) to destroy the island. Merlin still lives, advising the hereditary 'Council of the Round' to rule the island. It has become a very dangerous 'neutral ground' where humans, angels, demons, and sorcerors of all kinds can mingle in a mutual peace. Common sources of magic in Brittania are Alchemy and Demon-binding. Angemancy is frowned upon, as it tends to attract bitter enemies. Note: Excalibur is a divinely-empowered sword which can slay an angel or demon, though there is speculation over whether it could harm Christ Caesar.

Byzantium is a city of devils and demons. Rather than malevolently tormenting the people of the city, they protect it as a 'front' for the demonic powers of central asia and as an agreed-upon meeting place. The Empire has actually established an embassy here. Byzantium is the greatest city for demonologists in the known world.

There are also several factions which plague the empire, all with magical or supernatural resources at their disposal, including Mohommedans, The Sons of Moses (Renegade Kabbalists loyal to the 'true God of israel'), the Temple Masons (Solomonic Jews with powerful arcane resources), as well as a number of Gnostic sects.

Outside the Empire the forces of the supernatural are working as well, gathering strength for the coming conflict.

Scandinavia: The Norse Gods are generally well-meaning fallen angels, save Loki, who is in fact a guise of Lucifer. God has recently turned his attention toward this warrior-people, and many frontier garrissons have been attacked in recent years by Northmen, some who appear to have magical weapons or supernatural allies in their midst.

Novgorod: A city in the northeast ruled by Kosechei the Deathless, a powerful and evil sorceror. He claims to support the causes of Satan and the freedom of humanity from the gods' war, but he is incredibly ruthless, such that the huns fear and serve him.

The Far East is dominated by two nations; Chin (Ruled by the Song Polity) and the Khitan Empire. Both have similar cultures and language, though the Khitan (north China, manchuria, and Mongolia) is dominated by powerful animists and buddhists, Chin is ruled by the secular Confucians and Daoists, who wield enormous mental powers (this power derives from the Holy Spirit, though this is unknown to them). In addition to their wealth and progressive societies, the Chin posess a potent navy and the friendship of many dragons.

I'll do the rest of the world later, but I hope y'all can see where I'm going. I welcome feedback.

By Chin, I think you mean the Qin Dynasty (historically, it ruled from 221 BC to 206 BC). The Emperor's family name is Ying. As for dragons, they're said to be able to change their size and shape at will, and there are human-demon hybrids in Chinese mythology.

As for Confucian-based supernatural powers, forget it. Confucian beliefs were ruthlessly suppressed during the Qin Dynasty-- the Emperor was a legalist-- and Confucians frown upon attempts to wield supernatural powers as against human nature. Taoist magic is okay, and a frequent feature of Chinese mythology.

When I said Chin I meant 'Chin', as in the generic name for the region that is China in my world. The year is 1000 A.D and the Song dynasty is running things (as per real history). Sorry to confuse you.

I recall reading some obscure treatise about an order of elementalist mages (not strictly christian, but I like the idea). Basically it goes like this: humans have an afterlife but short lifespan, elementals have long livespans but no afterlife. So by 'marrying' an elementalist of the opposite gender, both gain a form of immortality, I don't recall which. There are several options though:

* both elemental and mage are effectively unageing.
* the elemental gains access to the mage's afterlife (while they'd prefer Heaven over Hell, those elementals who volunteer for the union fear oblivion above all else)
* they gain access to an alternate afterlife, or get stuck to Purgatory (if they've been a decent pair in life) or Limbo (first level of Hell, not strictly a bad place) if they haven't.

Of course it is truly a wedding: the mage must not cheat on his/her elemental (whether with a human or another elemental), else he'd lose his powers.

Also, doesn't the Coran describe djinn as having a soul? This could be a bit of the Coran that could actually fit in your mainly Christian universe, the djinn could have several factions (depending on their choice in the god vs satan vs jesus mess) and a djinni could be used as a servant/slave by mages.

With this interesting theological setup there is one very important issue to consider: What happens to souls? You could have them go to purgatory post-mortem, with their ultimate fate to be decided once someone has established control over this unholy mess, alternately you could have three possible destinations: Heaven for those faithful to God the Father, Hell for those who turn to Satan or any of his minions and some third alternative for followers of the God Emperor of Man (Jesus). The Jesus option could possibly involve them going into oblivion as a kind of storage, with Jesus able to resurrect them when he needs to (he wouldn't resurrect them automatically as this would lead to overpopulation, I'd think). You've also got to consider whether, if souls are going to Heaven and Hell, the powers which control those realms are able to send them to Earth in some capacity, and how easy it is, at the least that provides a place for vampires (Satan can send them back to Earth but they can only keep a place there if they drink the blood of the living).
Or something, I'm sure you can think of a much better system.

Silver tends to be a talisman against evil, but gold was also regarded as the purest of substances during the middle ages/renaissance, so it might be useful against demons. Although iron is also sited as being a useful mineral against spirits and there's that thing with the iron chariots>Power of God, I personally think that angels would be too easy to kill if they're weak against iron, there's just too much of it.
Also, traditionally knowing a spirits name is a good way of binding it, so if you know an angel/demons true name you could conceivably use it against that angel (write it on a weapon in some esoteric language, for instance).

I'm not sure if this is helpful at all, but I think you could get some considerable mileage out of Aztec mythology in the Americas. In particular this chap:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tezcatlipoca would seem to me to be a perfect front for Satan, and the other gods could easily be fallen angels of a less pleasant stripe than the Norse ones (what with all the human sacrifices). The more well known Quetzalcoatl would probably fit into this mythos as an agent of God the Father whose exile from Mexico was actually just him reporting back to his masters.
Technically the people in Mexico at this time wouldn't be Aztecs, they'd be Toltecs, but the gods are mostly the same.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:When I said Chin I meant 'Chin', as in the generic name for the region that is China in my world. The year is 1000 A.D and the Song dynasty is running things (as per real history). Sorry to confuse you.

In that case, the name of the nation would be "Song," NOT "Chin."

Sidewinder wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:When I said Chin I meant 'Chin', as in the generic name for the region that is China in my world. The year is 1000 A.D and the Song dynasty is running things (as per real history). Sorry to confuse you.

In that case, the name of the nation would be "Song," NOT "Chin."

The name China came from the Chin Dynasty which was one of China's earliest dynasties. The names was kept by the Dynasties that came afterwards.

Another idea for the Americas- what about the supposed angel Moroni? Perhaps the version of the Abrahamic god he's supposed to be representing picks a Yosef Nakah instead of Joseph Smith.

Two more factions to consider-

1. How about a faction draped in black, the angel(?)s of Death? They say that

A Site about Castlevania Characters wrote:The Grim Reaper’s origin is shrouded in absolute mystery, though some have said that he is the Archangel Uriel, straight from the pages of the Bible. His name meaning "Fire of God" and being described as "The Angel of Repentance," Uriel was said to be the Archangel that held the keys to the gates of Hell, who was also said to be the one who warned Noah of the impending Great Flood. According to Milton, Uriel was the Archangel with the sharpest eyes. As the "Interpreter of Prophecies," Uriel was usually depicted carrying a book or a papyrus scroll, or possessing a Fiery Sword. If this is true, it could be said Uriel has become a Fallen Angel, or at least a neutral figure who pledges allegiance to neither Heaven or Hell. His only goal and purpose being the harvesting of new souls, Death knows no mercy or compassion.

2. How about a Lovecraftian faction?

I'd also caution against using the pagan gods. Too much to deal with and keep track of. You've got the classic Greco-Roman, Norse, and Egyptians (the three of Age of Mythology). Then you've got Mesopotamian ones, Mesoamerican ones, East Asian ones, African ones, Celtic ones, and so on. And then you've got to deal with Hinduism.

No thanks. Just treat them like In Nomine and sideline them, or write them out entirely.

I've got most all of the pagan (and hindu) gods as various good or evil fallen angels. As for lovecraft stuff, it probably won't come up, because I don't feel I can do it justice.

The Nomad wrote:Also, doesn't the Coran describe djinn as having a soul? This could be a bit of the Coran that could actually fit in your mainly Christian universe, the djinn could have several factions (depending on their choice in the god vs satan vs jesus mess) and a djinni could be used as a servant/slave by mages.

The Al-Quran describes Jinns as being created of fire and/or smoke, they have free will and souls as do men, but have certain powers that are denied to human beings.

Of course this whole scenario does very bad things to orthodox Christian theology since God and Jesus are the same being, so your deity is suffering from a serious case of split personality. Unless of course you want to go with the Adoptionist Heresy (Jesus was the adopted son of God) or the Arian Heresy (Jesus was not quite God but not quite man).

As for other advice I have this: Read Reginald Scots "Discovery of Witchcraft" It has in depth discussions of every bit of demonological lore, witchcraft, alchemy etc etc, from a sceptic perspective. Reginald Scot was later condemned by King James (of the King James bible) for being a disbeliever, which is somewhat unfair on the bloke.

You can find it on Amazon.

Another group you want to look into are the gnostics, Iranæus is a good place to start. Just a word of warning, the Gnostics scriptures are gibberish, filled with the mystic significance of the Greek Letters (as Iranæus said: "So the truth didn't exist before the Greeks invented all of their letters?"), dozens of deities emanating from a single core etc etc.

You need a spreadsheet to keep track, but if you're into that sort of thing you can easily create a very nifty theology from this.

The Gnostics also solve the problem of the Souls, in that they believe that souls are trapped on earth in perpetual reincarnation until they gain enough enlightenment to break free of the demiurges trap.

Yeah, just what are you having the Gnostics do in your setting, anyways?

The gnostics are the 'freedom fighters' of my world. They use mysticism and magic to strike back against the forces of Jesus and his angels. Much of their stuff is being powered by the Holy Spirit, who is secretly helping them in an attempt to weaken Jesus and reunite the Godhead.

Sean Mulligan wrote:

Sidewinder wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:When I said Chin I meant 'Chin', as in the generic name for the region that is China in my world. The year is 1000 A.D and the Song dynasty is running things (as per real history). Sorry to confuse you.

In that case, the name of the nation would be "Song," NOT "Chin."

The name China came from the Chin Dynasty which was one of China's earliest dynasties. The names was kept by the Dynasties that came afterwards.

No, each dynasty changed the name of the nation-- thus, the Qin Dynasty ruled the Qin Empire, the Song Dynasty ruled the Song Empire, etc. The Chinese themselves referred to the land as Zhongyuan, "the Middle Plains."

You might consider making Woden more ambiguous. He was known as a treacherous god who was as likely to betray his followers as aid them, so calling upon Woden in war was a very dangerous act. His cult also may have practiced human sacrifice at times, since he sacrificed himself to himself on the world tree. His cult is also linked to Asiatic shamanism, since the theme of death and resurrection or rebirth for the sake of spiritual enlightenment and the world tree are essential to many shamanistic traditions.

A popular "scholarly" theory of the nineteenth century was that Celtic fairies, the Sidhe, were neutral fallen angels who really didn't care about humanity one way or the other.

I like this idea, have you thought about having the other gods not as fallen angels per se, but as weakened, exiled beings (some more powerful than the average angel, some less so) with a score to settle with the Yahwist regime? That could make for interesting politics, especially in egypt, where there'd be a long standing animosity since the time of Moses for the use of miracles of mass destruction on other gods' turf.

As for too many of them to keep track of, just explain it by the ones you like surviving by eating the essence of the others before they were exiled from their realms to the Earth, where they act in a more reduced manner around their followers. You could do a lot with that, you could have Loki become a star player by projecting himself as different gods after eating them. You could get thousands of gods down to a few cool ones.

I also like the description above of Jesus as the god emperor of man, you could paint him with very similar motives and actions; he's human, though he has divine powers, he's seen armageddon (much like he keeps saying in the bible) and where it goes and he knows it's not right. As such, he's rebelling against Yahweh's plan with one third of the host behind him, fighting for human supremacy in the celestial order. This puts him at odds with both Satan and Yahweh, as Satan thinks the angel species should be supreme and Yahweh thinks he is supreme and conflicts with Jesus as Jesus is working against his initial curse of mortality/original sin for humanity.

With real gods that ally themselves to certain factions, each faction could end up with different arcane technologies, the exiled Athenians could be watched over by Zeus, Hephaestus and Poseidon and get better shipbuilding technology, for instance, with the ability to traverse the seas, while other gods of the sea are dead, a sufficiently well-connected priest of Yahweh or the other main players can dominate the sea with less ability.

Rye wrote:I like this idea, have you thought about having the other gods not as fallen angels per se, but as weakened, exiled beings (some more powerful than the average angel, some less so) with a score to settle with the Yahwist regime? That could make for interesting politics, especially in egypt, where there'd be a long standing animosity since the time of Moses for the use of miracles of mass destruction on other gods' turf.

As for too many of them to keep track of, just explain it by the ones you like surviving by eating the essence of the others before they were exiled from their realms to the Earth, where they act in a more reduced manner around their followers. You could do a lot with that, you could have Loki become a star player by projecting himself as different gods after eating them. You could get thousands of gods down to a few cool ones.

That's a really good idea. I was wary of including too many pagan dieties, but you've given me a valid reason to only include the ones that I can use and not deal with 'But why not Baal?' all the time.

I also like the description above of Jesus as the god emperor of man, you could paint him with very similar motives and actions; he's human, though he has divine powers, he's seen armageddon (much like he keeps saying in the bible) and where it goes and he knows it's not right. As such, he's rebelling against Yahweh's plan with one third of the host behind him, fighting for human supremacy in the celestial order. This puts him at odds with both Satan and Yahweh, as Satan thinks the angel species should be supreme and Yahweh thinks he is supreme and conflicts with Jesus as Jesus is working against his initial curse of mortality/original sin for humanity.

Exactly. An added wrinkle is that God and Jesus (and probably the Spirit) each have the power to unmake creation, but that's a final 'last gasp' option. I should also mention the angels aren't evenly split. Jesus has more of the lowers, but God has the majority of the uppers (for example, the Seven Who Stand all sided with God, as did the Seraphim).

With real gods that ally themselves to certain factions, each faction could end up with different arcane technologies, the exiled Athenians could be watched over by Zeus, Hephaestus and Poseidon and get better shipbuilding technology, for instance, with the ability to traverse the seas, while other gods of the sea are dead, a sufficiently well-connected priest of Yahweh or the other main players can dominate the sea with less ability.

That's an interesting notion. There are definitely areas of magic and skill that can be divided up, like Norse craftsmanship and weaponsmithing. Thanks for your tips.

an interesting note is that there is, IIRC a Jewish tradition about 36 (32) pillars/righteous men, immortals, who wander the earth, protecting it from God's final judgment by the virtue of their worth and goodness.

They probably won't fit into your mythworld, but that's an interesting angel to consider.

If you want to use iron as a means of defeating Angelic beings, you can always simply say that "regular" iron is able to wound them, or protect slightly from their powers, but only iron that's undergone certain (expensive) rituals or treatments is really effective or able to kill them. That would allow you to separate out the weaknesses of angels and demons while not making the angelic forces a joke.

Fleshing out the habits and lifestyles of the people in the Roman Empire, are Christians going to stick by the Friday-Saturday sabbath? How much of the Jewish law is Jesus really going to turn over? Because if Jesus really was a Jew, then he would follow kashrut laws. That would restrict what your Christian characters would eat on their travels. And how they act.

How about making a Mithraic underground cult? Just another drop in the seething resistance movements.