StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Hello,

Excellent timeline.

a few questions:

1. Is the 1943 onwards timeline of Drakafic being finisihed and written.

2. When will we have a detailed Pacific timeline of Drakafic.

My analysis of the Pacific. I think by 1941. THe Japanese are effectively boxed in Northern and Eastern China(they hold less territory than they had in OTL.

Even in those territories, they only hold the cities, the countryside is beset by Taiping and Mao Faction traditionalist guerillas. The guerilla war in Japanese occupied China is much more active and brutal than in OTL(think massive use of poison gas and Three all sweeps), on the other hand, the Japanese allied troops are better quality than OTL(they are ideologically against the Taipings).

The Second Sino Japanese war in Drakaficverse looks like a cross between the Western Front in ww1 and the Eastern front in ww2.

By 1941 you have a mechanized Japanese army(mechanization is comparable to the german army in ww2, lots of tanks but still using a lot of pack animals to tow supplies and guns). vs. a mostly infantry Chinese army with a small but fast rising mechanized force.

1942-1943: Japanese do offensives vs. the Taipings mostly in Southern and Eastern/Central China but all this fails miserably.

Since 1936, the Taipings have built up their war industries in the Sichuan. With soviet help, these factories are churning out Chinese copies of Soviet tanks, planes, guns and small arms. To add to this, the Soviet from 1936-1940 have massively transported Soviet tanks, advisors, planes and guns to supply the Taipings. This support became a trickle when the Draka invades the USSR in 1940 but this is taken over by the USA who not only provides weapons but also huge numbers of trucks to the Taipings(as they did to the Soviets in OTL). These trucks provided mobility to the Taipings.

The Japanese 1942-1943 offensives saw large scale tank battles in Eastern and Southern China(smaller scale of course than Eastern Front OTL). While the Japanese were able to advance deep into Chinese territory, their armored attacks were savaged by large numbers of dug in anti tank guns and huge numbers of infantry armed with Chinese copies of the infamous Soviet RPGs aided by additional U.S. airpower(the U.S. flying tigers but a much bigger scale than OTL. THe largest tank battle in China could be comparable to a smaller scale Kursk but more bloodier as the Japanese used poison gas with huge tank and infantry engagements.

I think the Taiping strategy is to capitalize on their huge pool of infantry troops that they can draw from and I think that Taiping factories probably focuses on making anti tank guns, RPGs, recoiless rifles and rifles to equip its infantry. While the Taipings also make planes and tanks, a large part of this is aid from the USSR and the USA.

There is a lull in the fighitng in for most of 1944 since both sides are reequiping and regrouping their forces. By 1944, the Chinese front has become a stalemate both sides have lost massively but the Taipings can easilly replace their loses while the Japanese cannot.The Taiping factories in the Sichuan are simply outproducing the the Japanese in their Zaibatsu combines in Japan, Manchuria and Korea which are being bombed by U.S. bombers from Taiping territory.

The Taiping winter offensive of 1944-1945. The Taiping throughout 1944 have carefully stockpiled and husbanded its forces for a major breakout offensive on all sides. The Plan is to fully eject the Japanese out of China. To be followed later by a Chinese offensive into Manchuria and Korea.This is quite is quite similiar to Operation bagration 1944 OTL. The Taipings are taking advantage of growing weakness of the Japanese empire.

By 1944 the Japanese are on the losing end in the Pacific and the Japanese are being forced to divert several units from China to the Pacific. Also the regular U.S. bombings of Japanese factories have resulted in a significantly weakened Japanese army. The strains of war on two fronts have forced Japanese factories to produce much more tank destroyers than tanks since they are easier to make. and many Japanese XXs in China are understrength.

The Taipings on the other hand have fully recovered from the Japanese offensive of 1942-1943 and not only have they recovered but also have become more mechanized and much more well equiped and supported due to U.S. and Soviet support. The Taiping army of 1944 is a far cry from what they were in 1936. While still being a mainly infantry army, they have much more tanks, aircraft and guns than in 1936. THeir shock XXs, Taiping elite units have adopted a chinese copy of the AK-47(easier to make, stamped parts easier to make than bolt action rifles). The vast majority of the Taiping infantry is still using Chinese copies of Russian Moisin nagant bolt actions and captured Japanese guns. Also in the upcoming offensive, U.S. airpower will play a pivotal role in defeating the Japanese.

On the Indochina front which has long since been moribund since 1942 is starting to heat up in 1944. A British offensive to clear the Japanese from Indochina, Siam and go into Malaya is to coincide with a Taiping/French offensive from Yunan. The British were focused on the Draka in the Middle East.

In the Pacific, the Japanese in all respects are stronger than they were in OTL WW2. The Japanese were well supplied by the Draka in oil and raw materials for their war machine as well as Draka technology. The Japanese navy is more powerful than OTL but again so is the USN.

IN late 1944 to early 1945 the U.S. is planning to retake the Philippines and probably the largest naval battle in the war is shaping up in and around the Philippines. The U.S. is also preparing a massive invasion force to retake the Phillipine state.

All these are planned to coincide to fully confuse and disorient the Japanese command.

MOre to come....

The current thinking is that no wider Pacific War happens, because it is just too obviously suicidal. The situation and window of opportunity which existed for Japan in OTL does not exist in Drakafic, and as it was in OTL the Japanese decision to go to war was a close run thing. Without the naval limitations treaties to artificially weaken the west, Japan is more or less totally screwed. The US fleet alone would reasonably have 40 first rate battleships and battlecruiser for example, and potentially it could have significantly more.

Japan will be horribly bogged down enough in China as it is. Some thoughts which have not been resolved are the potential Japanese occupation of Borneo and Celebes when the Netherlands are invaded, with Britain taking Sumatra and Java, and the potential that Japan discovered the oil we now know is under Manchuria

In my opinion the Pacific war still happens.

In OTL, it was preety obvious(except probably except to the fanatical generals in Japan) that Japan will lose the Pacific war.

In OTL, Japan was bogged down in China and in no hope of winning the war. Japan had two choices, attack the USSR or go south and attack British, French, Dutch and American holdings in the Pacific and Burma.'

Khalkin gol dispelled the first choice.

A major reason of why Japan attacked south was because to continue the war in China(which was already unwinnable) as the U.S. , UK and Dutch cut off Japanese oil and raw materials and this endangered the war in China. Japan could not disconnect from China since it would lose face(probably the whole government would have to commit seppuku).

So Japan reasoned that it would take all the resources in the Pacific while blunting a U.S. counterattack.

Japanese leaders(well the sensible ones especially Yamamoto) knew that they would lose the war vs. an enraged and awakened American giant but they would make it costly for the U.S. so that an armistice could be hammered out.

In the Drakafic timeline, I think the Pacific war still happens, The Empire of Japan in this timeline is much more powerful than it was in OTL. Not only is the Empire supplemented by its combines in Manchuria, Korea and Japan but also supplemented by cheap Draka oil and raw material exports. Japan also has a better economy due to its exports to the Draka.

I think the decision to hit the pacific is to distract the Allies or draw away Allied concentration on the Draka. Also taking allied resources in the pacific can extra supplement in war machine, also the allied concentration on the draka has probably slowed raw material and oil exports to the Japanese to a trickle so the Japanese has to find another source to continue its war in China.

Forgot to add:

In duchess's timeline, the Philippines was attacked so the pacific war still happens.

But of course compared to the Draka war, the Pacific war is quite secondary.

I think the best time for the Japanese to strike when the U.S. is fully distracted with the Draka(probably 1942-1943).

Have the Japanese do surprise attacks on the Philippines, Hawaii and the Panama canal.

Have them sink a significant number of U.S. ships and the attack on the Panama canal hampers the U.S. shifting their ships from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

Also the IJN is different than OTL, it also has much better submarine tactics and a bigger submarine fleet(due to close contact with the Draka).

If the war in the Pacific happens it will probalby be mainly between:

Empire of Japan, Japanese puppet natins(Manchuria, Korea, Siam) vs. USA, China, British Empire, France.

Japan and the USSR are in a state of war/no war. The border with the USSR and Manchuria is quite tense and probably various armed clashes occur from time to time.

Japan cannot afford to fight the USSR since it preoccupied with CHina and the USA.

The USSR cannot afford(yet) to fight Japan since it is heavilly preoccupied with the Draka.

Sorry, the same changes which make Japan stronger make her enemies vastly stronger. What’s more, as I already pointed out, in OTL the allies where very artificially weak in the Pacific. That will not be the case in Drakafic when the Philippines are a state, China has something approaching an effective army, and India-Burma-Malay are all the British have for an Empire. In the OTL Philippines for example in 1941 US had just one regiment of regular ground troops, while in Draka Fic it probably has at least three or four active divisions, plus a national guard which has been trained and drilled for years, rather then the hastily assembled Philippines army present in real life.

The fact that Japan has stronger industry, though not vastly stronger, makes a program to build out of dependence on foreign imports all the more attractive, as was proposed but rejected in OTL. Such a program could be implemented much more rapidly, requiring a shorter halt to offensive operations against the Chinese.

I fact if you read about Japanese thinking throughout the 1920s and 30s, self sufficiency, using the resources Japan already had available, was a major theme. Japan didn’t ever seriously think about taking South East Asia before 1940 and right until that year its only real plan for fighting America was a decisive battle in Japanese home waters.



I’m all ears as to how you think Japan could ever knock out the Panama Canal, five thousand miles east of Hawaii. Any extra damage Japanese submarines can do (historically they managed about a 1:1 sunk loss ratio!) is more then outweighed by the reduction of the Draka submarine offensive vs. what Nazi Germany managed. The fact that the Draka like large steam powered submarine cruisers means contact with the Draka is unlikely to result in any improvement of Japanese tactics or designs.

Honestly, you haven’t pointed out anything we don’t already know or haven’t already thought about.

The only conflict the Japanese are likely to get embroiled in is one with Britain over control of the Dutch East Indies. If that happens, the only way to cause a general Pacific war would be if the British demand it in exchange for attacking the Draka. If that is the case, the Japanese would be on the defensive from the first, and might well seek terms immediately. In fact, this brings to mind the amusing mental image of the United States Navy launching surprise attacks on the Japanese fleet.

Oh great. Now I've got this vision of a U-boat hunting sub-cruisers in the south Atlantic. Why do you guys have to give me ideas I want to write??

I actually have some plans for stories of the naval war in the far south of the Atlantic and Indian Ocean, mostly involving minor and auxiliary warships of both sides, and a series of Antarctica bases (we must secure the worlds whale oil supply!). The idea of steam powered submarine cruisers dueling with armed liners in a sea filled with ice bergs is the best thing ever if you ask me.

Looks good.

THe Japanese will probably be kicked out of China and maybe even Manchuria and Korea.

Do you see the USSR getitng into the action vs. Japan maybe in Manchuria and Korea?

As for the Dutch East Indies, I think at most it would probably be a British/Japanese armed standoff but nothing will happen out of it.

Now the effects of a Japanese military defeat in China.

THe fall of the Army/control clique government and the rise of the navy/Imperial way clique government.

Major purge of the Japanese government with many military political leaders doing suicide or getting assasinated or arrested. Probably we will see street battles between the control and Imperial way cliques of the government.

The war will probably lead to a relatively Pro West Japanese government.

Of course the Taipings will still be at war vs. the Japanese even after they are kicked out of China. Taipings will demand withdrawal from Manchuria, Hainan, Formosa and possibly even Korea. The Japanese will be leery about this.

Maybe another China Japan war down the line.

What do you think?

Gunstrike wrote:Looks good.

THe Japanese will probably be kicked out of China and maybe even Manchuria and Korea.

Do you see the USSR getitng into the action vs. Japan maybe in Manchuria and Korea?

Russia is fighting for its life in Drakafic, and wouldn't be able to oppose japan. That doesn't matter, though, because Big Bad America is Russia's best friend.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

Gunstrike wrote:Looks good.

THe Japanese will probably be kicked out of China and maybe even Manchuria and Korea.

Do you see the USSR getitng into the action vs. Japan maybe in Manchuria and Korea?

Russia is fighting for its life in Drakafic, and wouldn't be able to oppose japan. That doesn't matter, though, because Big Bad America is Russia's best friend.

And in any case, the Railway into China from the Soviet Union is cut sometime in 1938, slicing off the primary supply line of Soviet arms to the Chinese. The primary piece of Taiping-built armor is the T-26/76, basically a tank destroyer variant of the T-26 with a 76.2mm gun, to counter the Japanese's Hond III knockoffs.

Hell, until just now, I didn't know that Mari's story Over The Marco Polo Bridge covered such a wide amount of time.


As for the later campaigns - in all honesty, we haven't decided yet. Sea Skimmer has reduced his participation, and we've recently decided that it would be retarded for the Japanese to even so much as CONSIDER a Pacific War against the United States, given its inflated power and position over OTL, and the even greater IJA commitment to China. The Asian Front is really still an open book to be written when we get around to it.

But we know what you want. You want to hear about the DRAKA, don't you?

The Taiping tank/tank destroyer force is so varied it's disgusting. They have four different kinds of American tanks, two different kinds of British tanks, a bunch of old French FT-17 knockoffs and at least two newer French designs, their own homebuilt T-26/76s, a bunch of old Soviet T-26s in sundry configurations, a small number of SU-85s and T-34s, a few KV-1s, BT-5/7s, the whole production run of the T-24 (only 24 were built, ironically), a larger number of T-28s, and a decent number of Su-76s. Just to top it off they have around 100 x T-35s which have been rebuilt into tank destroyers with 122mm guns.

Against that the Japanese have heavy Hond IIIs and older Hond IIs that have been uprated, along with a host of light tanks of their own native designs, and a few Drakian mediums which were imported directly instead of being built in Japan like the Hond knockoffs; note that these are Drakian light tanks which are called mediums by the Japanese and were probably SecDir designs.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The Taiping tank/tank destroyer force is so varied it's disgusting. They have four different kinds of American tanks, two different kinds of British tanks, a bunch of old French FT-17 knockoffs and at least two newer French designs, their own homebuilt T-26/76s, a bunch of old Soviet T-26s in sundry configurations, a small number of SU-85s and T-34s, a few KV-1s, BT-5/7s, the whole production run of the T-24 (only 24 were built, ironically), a larger number of T-28s, and a decent number of Su-76s. Just to top it off they have around 100 x T-35s which have been rebuilt into tank destroyers with 122mm guns.

Hilarity ensues at the supply dumps where they have to make sure the right ammunition gets to the correctly-gunned tanks. Same with the rifles, as well, unless they rechambered everything to fire 7.62mm R.

Against that the Japanese have heavy Hond IIIs and older Hond IIs that have been uprated, along with a host of light tanks of their own native designs, and a few Drakian mediums which were imported directly instead of being built in Japan like the Hond knockoffs; note that these are Drakian light tanks which are called mediums by the Japanese and were probably SecDir designs.

Home-built knockoffs of some Hond III prototype, ends up with a 75mm Bofors AA gun later, ergo Panther-Lite? Makes ya wonder what a platoon of Hond IVs would be called on the Asian Front if they got any of 'em over there.

As for "Japanese Medium Tanks", we could do the same thing there as we did for the D4Y "Judy", which was in OTL inspired by the He-116, an unselected competitor to the Ju-87. Of course, since Germany and Japan aren't in bed, the Judy is different, as it's probably inspired by a single-engine competitor to the Rhino.

Either they could be rejected competitors of the Cheetah (Which Shep and I painstakingly redid, you'll love the way it looks now!), or perhaps an earlier "Citizen Light Tank". 50mm L42 (Or L50?) gun on a Christie suspension chassis? Rejected by the War Directorate, but since they were already geared up for it, they found the Japs loved them, so they kept that one production line open and shipped 'em off to Japan?

The idea of them using a SecDir tank, especially if it were like the ones you made before with a dozen MGs, against Chinese Infantry, is hilarious.

At one point some Taiping units were armed with 1870s vintage French Gras Rifles. At least they have rifles, though.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:At one point some Taiping units were armed with 1870s vintage French Gras Rifles. At least they have rifles, though.

An amusing thought would be those 11mm Gras rifles punching through the armor of Japanese tankettes

Are the Taipings also manufacturing copies of the Soviets RPGs and recoiless rifles?

How does the Taiping airforce and tank force compare to the Japanese?

KlavoHunter wrote:
The idea of them using a SecDir tank, especially if it were like the ones you made before with a dozen MGs, against Chinese Infantry, is hilarious.

I imagine SecDir tanks would be comparable in size and armour to a 1943 Panzer III, but they would be armed with a stubby 75 mm cannon that mostly fires out pellet shells that are good at mincing apart huge enemy crowds and are never intended for tank vs. tank combat.

Big Orange wrote:I imagine SecDir tanks would be comparable in size and armour to a 1943 Panzer III, but they would be armed with a stubby 75 mm cannon that mostly fires out pellet shells that are good at mincing apart huge enemy crowds and are never intended for tank vs. tank combat.

Oh?

Caligula (1942 to xx)
30 km/h maximum speed
6 man crew
102mm K1938 L60 (Fixed)
2 13mm P-14A HMG (Turret)
2 7.7mm P-13A MG (Turret)
56 tons combat weight
200mm Effective Hull Front (100mm @ 60 deg)
85/135mm Effective Hull Sides (70mm @ 30 deg) (KE/HEAT)
40mm Effective Hull Rear
200mm Effective Upper Hull Front (100mm @ 60 deg)
85/135mm Effective Upper Hull Sides (70mm @ 30 deg) (KE/HEAT)
200mm Effective Turret Front (100mm @ 60 deg)
85/135mm Effective Turret Sides (70mm @ 30 deg) (KE/HEAT)
45/95mm Effective Turret Rear (KE/HEAT)

NOTES: Starting in 1939, the Security Directorate demanded their own supply of the Hond IV chassis for use in Jannissary-control roles. They were refused most strongly by the War Directorate, citing problems with the supply of the Hond IV, the need to re-equip for the war with the Soviet Union, and then later supply issues regarding faulty turrets. Thus they were forced to soldier on with the Hond III in its incarnation at the Tepes II for quite some time.

However, when the Jannissary Corps was to be issued new tanks that were easily superior to the Tepes II, the Security Directorate took action. With the potential offered by the new Tiger V12 engine, they completely reworked a large number of Hond III chassis, installing the new engine and mounting a 102mm gun in a forward mount, before adding an obscene amount of armor on, along with anti-RPG skirting.

However, this left the new tank destroyer rather lacking in the anti-infantry department, until someone suggested the brilliant idea of retaining the turret for purposes of machine-gun coverage. Thus the Caligula is something of an abomination among AFVs - but it is extremely effective in the role it's designed for, suppressing Jannissary revolt.

As this vehicle was wildly different from the more conventional Tepes series, it was designated the "Caligula", after the cruel Roman Emperor.

The Japanese had some fairly good domestic medium tank designs in OTL, most just never left the home islands or got into production. In Draka Fic they probably enter service by 1940, I would expect the Draka tanks are bought mainly to make up for production shortfalls just as Japan bought Italian bombers in OTL. The heavier Honds probably equip units in Manchuria more then they do units engaged against the Taiping forces, the terrain in China is going to make moving 40 and 50 ton tanks almost impossible. Based on the Dutchess thinking, the OTL Type 3 and Type 4 medium tanks should be sufficient to counter the vastly majority of Chinese tanks.

KlavoHunter wrote: An amusing thought would be those 11mm Gras rifles punching through the armor of Japanese tankettes

With steel cored ammo they might manage to cause some spall, but even 6mm armor really does give you very good protection against rifle bullets. .30-06 AP rounds famously could pierce some Jap tank armor, but only under unrealistic conditions, mainly a 90 degree striking angle.

Sea Skimmer wrote:With steel cored ammo they might manage to cause some spall, but even 6mm armor really does give you very good protection against rifle bullets. .30-06 AP rounds famously could pierce some Jap tank armor, but only under unrealistic conditions, mainly a 90 degree striking angle.

I thought that the physics of shell-versus-armor changed when the striking shell was actually of larger diameter than the armor was thick, to more or less ensure that all hits ended up striking as though they were at a 90-degree angle?

KlavoHunter wrote: *snip about the Caligula*

Would the Caligula's 102 mm cannon mostly fire out only HE and pellet shells, if it is mainly designed to take out dug in infantry positions or infantry attacks or mow down Janis if they get any stupid ideas? The Caligula's turret has two 13 mm rapid fire cannons (similar to the Panzer II's guns but faster) and two coaxial MGs - I hazard a guess the Caligula's turret is directly adapted from the Hoplite II/III's gun turret.

You know, I wouldn't think the SecDir would be so concerned about Janissary mutinies until after 1945 when the hardcore loyal Janissaries would be greatly diminished in numbers and the WarDir starts drafting in less loyal Janissary troopers that are not going to be that compliant and harder to co-ordinate. In the earlier phase of the war the SecDir's soldiers would perhaps serve as a hardcore element to any frontline Janissary cohort, with their intimidating security tanks supplemented the Janissary Corps’ armour formations...

Sea Skimmer wrote: The Japanese had some fairly good domestic medium tank designs in OTL, most just never left the home islands or got into production. In Draka Fic they probably enter service by 1940, I would expect the Draka tanks are bought mainly to make up for production shortfalls just as Japan bought Italian bombers in OTL. The heavier Honds probably equip units in Manchuria more then they do units engaged against the Taiping forces, the terrain in China is going to make moving 40 and 50 ton tanks almost impossible. Based on the Dutchess thinking, the OTL Type 3 and Type 4 medium tanks should be sufficient to counter the vastly majority of Chinese tanks.

The Hond IIs and Hond IIIs with their original mid 1930s armour and firepower specs would be sufficient against the Taiping armour formations if the Soviet loaned T-26 and BT-5/7 models are the closest to standard Chinese tanks in the early to mid 1940s (there are only a minority of more advanced medium and heavy Soviet tanks in Taiping service; they could be dealt with by the IJA’s home grown or Drakan loaned artillery).

Sufficient? You hardly need a Hond II or III to deal with a BT-7, even in Draka Fic the thing is very thin skinned as it was meant to be a mobile as possible. The Hond II meanwhile is already a 30 ton tank, owing to the Draka preference for heavy citizen protecting side armor. The Russian BT-7 is about 13 tons and the Japanese OTL Type 3 medium is 21 tons with a 75mm gun and 50mm armor.

The OTL Type 4 weighed about 26 tons with a more powerful 75mm weapon and 75mm armor. It could reasonably cope with even the T-31, should it appear in China. Draka tanks are only required to counter heavy Soviet armor, which will only be a threat in Manchuria. The Taipings no doubt have better infrastructure in place, but China is still huge, poorly developed and has lots of bad tank country. Japanese tanks need to be as light as they can be and still get the job done.

Ill have to work on renumbering all the Japanese tanks and SPGs if sometime soon.

Big Orange wrote:Would the Caligula's 102 mm cannon mostly fire out only HE and pellet shells, if it is mainly designed to take out dug in infantry positions or infantry attacks or mow down Janis if they get any stupid ideas? The Caligula's turret has two 13 mm rapid fire cannons (similar to the Panzer II's guns but faster) and two coaxial MGs - I hazard a guess the Caligula's turret is directly adapted from the Hoplite II/III's gun turret.

13mm is roughly equivalent to the .50 calibre (which is 12.7mm). The Panzer II's autocannon was 20mm.

The Caligula's 102mm gun is meant to make big holes in the latest Janni tanks (Which by 1942 start to have well-sloped frontal armor, and 90mm cannons!). In addition to that, as a matter of course, it has HE and canister shells in more significant numbers than a non-SecDir tank would have, to of course scare the shit out of any poor Janni infantry who rout... Canister, mmmh.

You know, I wouldn't think the SecDir would be so concerned about Janissary mutinies until after 1945 when the hardcore loyal Janissaries would be greatly diminished in numbers and the WarDir starts drafting in less loyal Janissary troopers that are not going to be that compliant and harder to co-ordinate. In the earlier phase of the war the SecDir's soldiers would perhaps serve as a hardcore element to any frontline Janissary cohort, with their intimidating security tanks supplemented the Janissary Corps’ armour formations...

It's not so much Janissary revolt as it is Janissary rout. And if you're corsetting them, those Janissaries might take offense to being shot at to be directed back into the enemy, and shoot back to make a break for safety. This is something of a problem when they have armor of their own. Therefore, SecDir needs competent tank destroyers, and since they can't get their hands on many Hond IV chassis, they have to do SOMETHING with the obsolescent Hond III (Which serves in modified form as the Tepes II).

By 1946 and beyond, though? *Snigger* SecDir gets very, very mean.

Sea Skimmer wrote:<Snip stuff about OTL Jap Armor applied to DF>

Would their tank development start with their 1927 Type 87 Chi-I as per OTL, and be influenced by British tank design? Or would they get an earlier start with their participation on the Western Front, where Japan could probably go home with some FT-17s or whatever?

KlavoHunter wrote: Would their tank development start with their 1927 Type 87 Chi-I as per OTL, and be influenced by British tank design? Or would they get an earlier start with their participation on the Western Front, where Japan could probably go home with some FT-17s or whatever?

I’m assuming that they take home a few FT-17s to start a tank school, but development of new models would not begin in earnest for at least several years because of a lack of funding or any requirement for tanks.

KlavoHunter wrote: The Caligula's 102mm gun is meant to make big holes in the latest Janni tanks (Which by 1942 start to have well-sloped frontal armor, and 90mm cannons!). In addition to that, as a matter of course, it has HE and canister shells in more significant numbers than a non-SecDir tank would have, to of course scare the shit out of any poor Janni infantry who rout... Canister, mmmh.

It makes more sense that Janissaries are organised into motorized rifle brigades with access only to light armour (like armoured cars or older tanks) with first rate medium tanks of their own being comparatively rare, since they have to fight in tandem with the CF detatchments which have the monopoly on decent medium to heavy tanks that excel in tank vs. tank combat (Jannis could cope with using older tanks that are not intended for tank combat but for infantry support).

It's not so much Janissary revolt as it is Janissary rout. And if you're corsetting them, those Janissaries might take offense to being shot at to be directed back into the enemy, and shoot back to make a break for safety. This is something of a problem when they have armor of their own. Therefore, SecDir needs competent tank destroyers, and since they can't get their hands on many Hond IV chassis, they have to do SOMETHING with the obsolescent Hond III (Which serves in modified form as the Tepes II).

By 1946 and beyond, though? *Snigger* SecDir gets very, very mean.

Between 1941 up till 1943 it is most likely going to be the Russkies who would be shooting their own troops for running away from combat while the Janissary Corps are on the winning side and are competent to excellent soldiers who won't contemplate running away or turning on their officers until everything goes to shit past 1945. The SecDir field units would serve as a potential hammer over frontline Janissary forces but they would also be serving as a duplicate citizen force to the WarDir's official Citizen Force...