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I just noticed this gem and had a few things I was curious about. The first is during your timeline you have the surviving Draka relocated to OTL!South Africa and was wondering just what you have planed to happen to the survivors?

I mean can't really see anyone being all that willing to let the them anything close to even a mitlia but at the same time people are going to want their solders to come home but at the same time if they don't keep anyone there to guard the Draka things are going to get bloody... for the snakes anyhow.

They've pretty much seemed to have done their best to get at the top of everyone's most hated list and I don't see how that's going to be forgotten or forgiven. There's got to be a lot of people planing on setting up shop just outside their borders and showing the Draka the same amount of compassion that they showed their people.

On that note I do wonder on how useful most guards would be given how a good number of them would be more then willing to join in on the fun.

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The second is has anyone considered the sociological issues that this war would have a few decades later or thought of doing a fic on things might have been changed culturally?

IIRC, the plan was to disperse the surviving population to the point where their culture would be destroyed.

phongn wrote:IIRC, the plan was to disperse the surviving population to the point where their culture would be destroyed.

No, the point of the plan was to disperse the surviving population to the point that they could not form a worthwhile threat a few generations down the line - not to destroy the Draka culture. THAT was already done by separating the Citizens from their serfs.

It would have been four separate enclaves - South Africa (centered around nuked-out Archona and Cape Town), Tunisia (Centered around Tunis), Madagascar, and the last was up in the air - Shep suggested the Congo, I suggested Egypt.

The hellishness of living in the Congo is obvious, but, then again, I postulate the Allies would want to keep the Draka away from strategic materials (Like the Uranium goldmine that the Congo more or less is, for obvious reasons).

Whereas the reasons for putting them in Egypt, around Alexandria (Which also probably ate a few nukes), fall into some of the same as South Africa - it's good enough soil there that you could, in theory, throw them some shovels and seed and say "Have fun!", and expect them to feed themselves.

Except unlike South Africa, the Citizen population there not only starves because they don't know the first thing about actually performing the labor of farming, but they also suffer radiation poisoning from the river silt used to fertilize any fields in the Nile Delta they create, because the Aswan Dam almost certainly takes a nuke, too.

Tunisia is prime real estate, nobody is going to let draka live there postwar, especially not the Italians who will want it bad. The simple fact is that they're going to end up in a single enclave, in South Africa, in a very small part of South Africa, in squalid, cramped conditions, with the Soviets running their industry and the whole area filled with Sovereign Base Areas of the sundry foreign powers to the point that half the GDP is from Draka working in slave-labour like conditions in Soviet-owned factories, and the other half is from prostitution.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Tunisia is prime real estate, nobody is going to let draka live there postwar, especially not the Italians who will want it bad. The simple fact is that they're going to end up in a single enclave, in South Africa, in a very small part of South Africa, in squalid, cramped conditions, with the Soviets running their industry and the whole area filled with Sovereign Base Areas of the sundry foreign powers to the point that half the GDP is from Draka working in slave-labour like conditions in Soviet-owned factories, and the other half is from prostitution.

Which makes me wonder how long it will take before some bleeding heart begins to talk about how awful the poor Draka are being treated, and how they've been punished enough! Not that they'd get anywhere for the first few decades after the war, but still it's an amusing thought!

Also if Gwendolyn Ingolffsdottir ever visits THIS world she's in for the shock of her life! So's LeFarge for that matter...

Norseman wrote:Which makes me wonder how long it will take before some bleeding heart begins to talk about how awful the poor Draka are being treated, and how they've been punished enough! Not that they'd get anywhere for the first few decades after the war, but still it's an amusing thought!

Also if Gwendolyn Ingolffsdottir ever visits THIS world she's in for the shock of her life! So's LeFarge for that matter...

After the Draka's sacking of Rome and executing the Pope on the steps of the bascillica, I think it'll be at least 100 years before anyone feels sorry for them.

Remember: Drakia Delenda Est! Deus Vult!

Norseman wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Tunisia is prime real estate, nobody is going to let draka live there postwar, especially not the Italians who will want it bad. The simple fact is that they're going to end up in a single enclave, in South Africa, in a very small part of South Africa, in squalid, cramped conditions, with the Soviets running their industry and the whole area filled with Sovereign Base Areas of the sundry foreign powers to the point that half the GDP is from Draka working in slave-labour like conditions in Soviet-owned factories, and the other half is from prostitution.

Which makes me wonder how long it will take before some bleeding heart begins to talk about how awful the poor Draka are being treated, and how they've been punished enough! Not that they'd get anywhere for the first few decades after the war, but still it's an amusing thought!

I doubt that in real life that would happen, considering the extensive concesssions afforded to Japan and Germany after their defeats, while the suffering of the Drakian citizens would inevitably overlap with the millions of serfs (they're in the cities and Combines too) who are also going to get bombed or nuked alongside them.

And I doubt no more than twelve A-bombs would be needed against the Dominate, even though they're far bigger than the Axis ever were and Africa has enough space to set off nukes with relatively little hassel (in the OTL they bombed two semi-isolated cities in Japan because nuking the German heartland would've ruined Europe's future prospects).

And if Archon got hit by a A-bomb, how did the Drakian leadership formally surrender?

Why would Italy want to conquer Tunisia when military colonial conquest is now declared totally uncool after the Drakians tried to do it to them and other Europeans? After the Germans and Japanese had their funny five minutes, the other European powers could not control their colonial territories after that and economic/political problems within Europe encouraged the sentiments of not having a oversees empire.

And I doubt turning South Africa into a labour camp and brothel for holding surviving Drakian citizens would really work in the long term, when Japan and Germany both managed to dodge a bullet like that in the OTL, becoming very successful countries again. It wouldn't be unfeasible for former Dominate territories under the control of the victorious powers being refounded as democratic or communist republics, with post-Drakian militaries (similar to the JDF) getting founded under the auspices of Russia, Germany, Britain and America (that changes the dynamics of the Cold War to a wide degree).

Big Orange wrote: (in the OTL they bombed two semi-isolated cities in Japan because nuking the German heartland would've ruined Europe's future prospects).

As far as I can make out, that never weighed in the final decision. Germany was the prime target for a nuclear attack until around September/October 1944 using B-29s based out of Aldergrove in Northern Ireland. The decision to switch from Germany to Japan has never been documented as far as I know (Mark may well pick me up here; he has a great talent for finding documentation on the web); in May 1944 it was certainly Germany to get the first atomic bombs, by November in was equally definitively Japan. The decision obviously got taken somewhere between. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were anything but semi-isolated. Both were major military bases and headquarters areas, Hiroshima was a primary garrison town and had masses of light industry. Nagasaki had some of the biggest aircraft plants, aircraft engine factories and shipyards in the country. They were the first two targets on a list of five, the list (in order of priority) being Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki, Yokohama and Kyoto.

And if Archon got hit by a A-bomb, how did the Drakian leadership formally surrender?

In glowing terms? Seriously, that's always the problem with decapitation strikes. There's a nasty aside to that, the phenomenom has the merit that if one doesn't want the other side to surrender, one's looking for an excuse to keep battering them, a decapitation strike makes a lot of common sense.

Japan and Germany both managed to dodge a bullet like that in the OTL, becoming very successful countries again.

True, but that's an ahistorical event. Usually it takes a country a long, long time to recover from a really good seeing-to. Iraq is probably a better role-model than Germany or Japan

Stuart wrote:As far as I can make out, that never weighed in the final decision. Germany was the prime target for a nuclear attack until around September/October 1944 using B-29s based out of Aldergrove in Northern Ireland. The decision to switch from Germany to Japan has never been documented as far as I know (Mark may well pick me up here; he has a great talent for finding documentation on the web); in May 1944 it was certainly Germany to get the first atomic bombs, by November in was equally definitively Japan. The decision obviously got taken somewhere between. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were anything but semi-isolated. Both were major military bases and headquarters areas, Hiroshima was a primary garrison town and had masses of light industry. Nagasaki had some of the biggest aircraft plants, aircraft engine factories and shipyards in the country. They were the first two targets on a list of five, the list (in order of priority) being Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki, Yokohama and Kyoto.

I didn't think Kyoto was to be a bombing target, since up to that point they made a decision not to bomb it. Why reverse that decision with the atomic bomb? That's curiousity asking.

Gil Hamilton wrote:I didn't think Kyoto was to be a bombing target, since up to that point they made a decision not to bomb it. Why reverse that decision with the atomic bomb? That's curiousity asking.

Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson vetoed bombing Kyoto due to its historical significance (link)

Gil Hamilton wrote: I didn't think Kyoto was to be a bombing target, since up to that point they made a decision not to bomb it. Why reverse that decision with the atomic bomb? That's curiousity asking.

Kyoto was originally on the bomb list. The criteria for selection was that the targets had to be of significant military value, relatively intact so the effects could be measured and easily distinguisable to a radar bomb sight. That gave the five cities I listed. Stimson then demanded that Kyoto should be deleted from the list due to its cultural significance. That lasted about three months then it got put back on again. The listing is quite confusing, Niigata was originally on the list and Nagasaki wasn't. Then, Nagasaki replaced Niigata and Kyoto was taken off which caused Niigata to be put back on again. Then Kyoto was added after Stimson was overruled and Yokohama replaced Niigata.

The three planned missions were

1 - Primary Hiroshima, secondary Kokura

2 - Primary Kokura, secondary Nagasaki

3 - Primary Kokura, secondary Kyoto

Big Orange wrote:And I doubt no more than twelve A-bombs would be needed against the Dominate, even though they're far bigger than the Axis ever were and Africa has enough space to set off nukes with relatively little hassel (in the OTL they bombed two semi-isolated cities in Japan because nuking the German heartland would've ruined Europe's future prospects).

Three hundred million people spread across a continent larger than North America...

Oh it'd take more than a dozen bombs! Indeed the nuclear campaign was not sufficient to break the Drakan resistance.

Big Orange wrote:And if Archon got hit by a A-bomb, how did the Drakian leadership formally surrender?

They didn't, the allies simply declared victory after smashing the last army / stronghold that conducted open resistance. There were decades of guerrilla warfare against Drakan holdouts in the African wilderness.

Big Orange wrote:Why would Italy want to conquer Tunisia when military colonial conquest is now declared totally uncool after the Drakians tried to do it to them and other Europeans? After the Germans and Japanese had their funny five minutes, the other European powers could not control their colonial territories after that and economic/political problems within Europe encouraged the sentiments of not having a oversees empire.

Conquer it? They wouldn't have to conquer it; they'd just ask to be awarded Tunisia as their administrative zone. Then they start moving Italians there, very simple really. Especially given how depopulated the area is by now.

Big Orange wrote:And I doubt turning South Africa into a labour camp and brothel for holding surviving Drakian citizens would really work in the long term, when Japan and Germany both managed to dodge a bullet like that in the OTL, becoming very successful countries again. It wouldn't be unfeasible for former Dominate territories under the control of the victorious powers being refounded as democratic or communist republics, with post-Drakian militaries (similar to the JDF) getting founded under the auspices of Russia, Germany, Britain and America (that changes the dynamics of the Cold War to a wide degree).

Africa is indeed turned into a collection of republics and kingdoms, more or less independent but closely linked to their sponsor state. However these states are entirely Draka Free, basically the occupying power moulds the new state in its own image.

The Draka themselves however have several problems, first there aren't a lot of them (35 million when the war begins, far fewer when it ends). Secondly they are all responsible for slavery and serfdom, to some degree anyway. So initially treating them harsher than the Germans seems to make sense...

Then the real fun begins, see in the main the Draka can't farm and they can't work either. Your obvious question is going to be "But wait! They have huge plantations, and they ran this enormous economy!"

That's right, they had plantations that they managed as gentlemen farmers, or worked on as overseers. None of them actually got their hands dirty with the farming. Sure they might know a lot about managing a farm, and how to get the most work out of slave labour; that doesn't help them actually do it themselves.

Then there's factories, well no Draka have ever worked in a factory, indeed most Draka have never worked as an artisan. Pretty much everything the Draka use was made by skilled serf artisans. The Draka are in short Gentlemen and Gentlewomen, they don't work, they supervise.

Compare that to Japan and Germany where a sizeable section of their population were in fact regular workers, and the population was indeed devoted to regular labour.

So the Draka would really be screwed, and even if they did put their old skills to new uses the problem is that their farms and factories were far less efficient than those of the surrounding powers. They're used to throwing labour and resources at stuff. Now they only have their own strength.

Big Orange wrote: Why would Italy want to conquer Tunisia when military colonial conquest is now declared totally uncool after the Drakians tried to do it to them and other Europeans? After the Germans and Japanese had their funny five minutes, the other European powers could not control their colonial territories after that and economic/political problems within Europe encouraged the sentiments of not having a oversees empire.

Ever heard of "rebuilding contracts", "occupation bases", "trust mandates", etc.? They don't need to old-school conquer it, just have it turned over to them for rebuilding and occupation and its a de facto colony in the settlement.

Norseman wrote: So the Draka would really be screwed, and even if they did put their old skills to new uses the problem is that their farms and factories were far less efficient than those of the surrounding powers. They're used to throwing labour and resources at stuff. Now they only have their own strength.

Figure out how they divy it up? I imagine that the Police Zone is split amongst the occupying powers like post @ WW2 Germany, and the rest is split along its own lines? I imagine America gets West Africa, which ought to set up some interesting economic webs post-war. The major occupiers in sub-Saharan Africa I imagine are only the USSR, U.S., UK, France, and Germany. Taiping China has its hands full rebuilding Sino-occupied Manchu China, but I imagine they get a bite of Drakian Afghanistan and Iran. UK takes Pakistan, most of Afghanistan and Iran, much of the Arabian penninsula. I imagine the USSR gets central Asia, Iraq, part of Anatolia, part of Arabia. And the minor European states probably get mandates over N. Africa.

Before DS went down, there was a postwar map made of the occupation zones; I'll have to ask Shep if he has it somewhere.

phongn wrote:Before DS went down, there was a postwar map made of the occupation zones; I'll have to ask Shep if he has it somewhere.

Mari has it.

Norseman wrote: Conquer it? They wouldn't have to conquer it; they'd just ask to be awarded Tunisia as their administrative zone. Then they start moving Italians there, very simple really. Especially given how depopulated the area is by now.

I'm not saying I don't know what would happen, I just can't think of any European power launching a successful landgrab or keeping significant foreign territory after WWII in the OTL (Hong Kong and similar "outposts" still under British control decades after were atypical).

The Draka themselves however have several problems, first there aren't a lot of them (35 million when the war begins, far fewer when it ends). Secondly they are all responsible for slavery and serfdom, to some degree anyway. So initially treating them harsher than the Germans seems to make sense...

But what about the German captains of industry and industrial officials led by Albert Speer who also used slave labour, but were mainly none the less let off? What about the Japanese being allowed to keep their Emperor and the many Axis officers with blood on their hands defecting to either the West or the Soviets? That certainly does not morally exonerate them for what they did (the Nazis still seem worse than the fictional Drakans in some ways), but it seemed like the Allies had to morally compromise to win the peace and letting post-Drakian Africa turn into something similar to fucking post-Saddam Iraq means that the Alliance have seriously fucked up and lost the peace after defeating the Dominate.

KlavoHunter wrote:

phongn wrote: Before DS went down, there was a postwar map made of the occupation zones; I'll have to ask Shep if he has it somewhere.

Mari has it.

I also know it is too much to ask, but what about the map showing the extent of the Dominate of the Drakia's territories in 1940, showing parts of Africa still under Dutch control?

Maybe we could draw a schematic of a typical industrial Combine during the war, with a tank assembly line, railway yard, barrack buildings for both serfs and their guards, with security fences?

Also a detailed map of Archon showing the headquaters of the Drakian League and major Directorates?

Big Orange wrote:

Norseman wrote: Conquer it? They wouldn't have to conquer it; they'd just ask to be awarded Tunisia as their administrative zone. Then they start moving Italians there, very simple really. Especially given how depopulated the area is by now.

I'm not saying I don't know what would happen, I just can't think of any European power launching a successful landgrab or keeping significant foreign territory after WWII in the OTL (Hong Kong and similar "outposts" still under British control decades after were atypical).

Hurm? Several of the African states didn't gain independence before well into the 1960s.

Big Orange wrote:

The Draka themselves however have several problems, first there aren't a lot of them (35 million when the war begins, far fewer when it ends). Secondly they are all responsible for slavery and serfdom, to some degree anyway. So initially treating them harsher than the Germans seems to make sense...

But what about the German captains of industry and industrial officials led by Albert Speer who also used slave labour, but were mainly none the less let off? What about the Japanese being allowed to keep their Emperor and the many Axis officers with blood on their hands defecting to either the West or the Soviets?

Yes but you see there's a difference here...

In order to liberate the serfs, and give them functional states, you have to confiscate the big combines and turn them over to the successor states. In short you are pretty much forced to confiscate and re-distribute 95% of Drakan property in order to have functional states afterwards.

Also why do you even need the Draka? What good would it do you not to deport them? How would that benefit the allies?

The occupying forces could easily take over the duty of administering the quasi-socialist Drakan economy, without needing to keep any of the Draka around.

Big Orange wrote:That certainly does not morally exonerate them for what they did (the Nazis still seem worse than the fictional Drakans in some ways), but it seemed like the Allies had to morally compromise to win the peace and letting post-Drakian Africa turn into something similar to fucking post-Saddam Iraq means that the Alliance have seriously fucked up and lost the peace after defeating the Dominate.

The only way it would turn to post-Saddam Iraq is if the Draka are left in place at the same time as the serfs are freed, at that point the Serfs will start hunting them down to kill them.

I mean look at what happened to the Sudeten Germans? Or Konigsburg!

Simply deporting the Draka and then taking over the existing infra-structure would work fine; the population is disarmed, unfamiliar with violence, and there is in the main no remaining tribal allegiances.

edit:

Sonofa gun, it was in my photobucket. Converted from a .bmp, its a little fuzzy, but you can see the various territorial zones.



If somoene finds a better one, I'll take this one down.

You know that now that I think of it the Draka have somewhat ironically in this managed to permanently kill off any real chance of slavery ever existing into the 21st century like it does now some areas of the Middle East and Africa.

On another note I was wondering about something dealing with both the Middle East and India. First just how has this affected the Islamic world? I mean there are several groups who hate each other all most as much as they dislike everyone else so has fighting the Draka like they have forced them to heal their splits with eachother? And what are their feelings about Britain in this timeline?

On India just how close to Britain in this timeline, are they going to try to leave the British Empire in this 'verse?

What happens to post-war Japan? I see the U.S. and the German Reich get most of Sub-Saharan Africa.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:What happens to post-war Japan? I see the U.S. and the German Reich get most of Sub-Saharan Africa.

That map needs to be changed - early on the DF team was considering a Pacific War (to be written by Sea Skimmer) but then realized it didn't make much sense for Japan to attack the US. The balance of power is even worse than OTL.

OMG! You killed Turkey! You bastards!

Here's a cleaned version of the map Chewie posted above (click for full resolution). As noted before, Japan' status is probably suspect.



Also, here's the 1943 map:



EDIT: Corrected date.

No, not the 1934 map, that's the 1943 map, in the middle of the war, showing areas of occupation v. original borders.