StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Considering how the Japanese and the Italians OTL had issues with standardized equipment (particularly ammunition), how does the logistics element differ in the Drakaficverse?

Well, how so?

The Italians don't make a terribly impressive showing of themselves, seeing as they get half their country conquered by the Draka, and I imagine the bulk of the Free Italian military is supplied by the rest of the Allied Powers, rather than mostly their own logistics.


As for the Japanese, in DrakaFic, they learn ground warfare in a harder school, and have better teachers than OTL. Instead of the relative ability to 'slack off' in efficiency against the Nationalist Chinese, they're fighting the Taipings, who are much more organized and disciplined, and they are well-supplied by the Soviet Union.

Countering this, the Japanese have been nominal allies of the Draka since the 20's, and there's a good bit of technology transfer going on. Most prominently, in the fields of small arms and armor.

What deficiencies remain in the IJA's arsenal are not so horribly apparent as they were in OTL, seeing as, the way we've discussed the timeline lately, the Japanese will not be going to war with the United States, or, for that matter, any of the other Allied Powers.

I think that it would make sense to have the Japanese field some sort of RPG, considering their tech sharing with the Domination.

Zor

KlavoHunter wrote:Well, how so?
The Italians don't make a terribly impressive showing of themselves, seeing as they get half their country conquered by the Draka, and I imagine the bulk of the Free Italian military is supplied by the rest of the Allied Powers, rather than mostly their own logistics.

I’d expect the Italians keep using mostly Italian equipment. The vast majority of Italian industry was located in the Po river valley, which is never occupied, and Italy is totally dependent on raw material imports any way you cut it. In additional the rough Italian terrain reduces the importance of tanks and other mechanized equipment, which is where Italy would be worst off. By the time the time north Africa is being invaded, Italy would have hopefully improved its tank designs.

Zor wrote:I think that it would make sense to have the Japanese field some sort of RPG, considering their tech sharing with the Domination.

Everyone fields RPG and Bazooka analogues. The reality is that this sort of weapon could have been produced in WW1 had anyone seen the need. The key prcinabul behind the shaped charge, the Munroe effect, was discovered in OTL 1888. For various OTL reasons however, it was largely ignored until 1940.
In fact OTL WW2 Japan did produce the Type 4 70 mm anti tank rocket launcher, and began work on the Type 5 45mm anti tank recoilless rifle, but all of them got held back for the defense of the home lands, and so never saw combat. Either one could knock out a Sherman from any angle.

Sea Skimmer wrote:I’d expect the Italians keep using mostly Italian equipment. The vast majority of Italian industry was located in the Po river valley, which is never occupied, and Italy is totally dependent on raw material imports any way you cut it. In additional the rough Italian terrain reduces the importance of tanks and other mechanized equipment, which is where Italy would be worst off. By the time the time north Africa is being invaded, Italy would have hopefully improved its tank designs.

I forgot about the distribution of Italian industry - they'd probably be able to keep themselves armed, more or less, so long as they got enough materials from the rest of the Allies to do it. Still, I imagine they'd end up with a lot of lend-lease weapons.

Zor wrote:I think that it would make sense to have the Japanese field some sort of RPG, considering their tech sharing with the Domination.

Everyone fields RPG and Bazooka analogues. The reality is that this sort of weapon could have been produced in WW1 had anyone seen the need. The key prcinabul behind the shaped charge, the Munroe effect, was discovered in OTL 1888. For various OTL reasons however, it was largely ignored until 1940.
In fact OTL WW2 Japan did produce the Type 4 70 mm anti tank rocket launcher, and began work on the Type 5 45mm anti tank recoilless rifle, but all of them got held back for the defense of the home lands, and so never saw combat. Either one could knock out a Sherman from any angle.

Probably a 1941 or 1942 introduction, then, for the Japanese AT rockets - which I imagine would run more towards a LAW-like "light and easily-carried" approach, seeing as they don't have to make ever larger and larger warheads, the way the Draka and Allies do in their arms race against one another. The Taipings don't exactly have the greatest tank force; and what they -do- have lots of, is short on armor.

Of course, they'd still have bigger ones on the back burner, issued to units in Manchuria, in case the Soviets decide to have a little sideshow.


Edit: On the other hand, the Japanese have been fighting the Chinese since 1936.

I always imagined the Fascist Italians would essentially be like the Chinese Nationalists, but on a smaller scale. Italian tanks and aircraft would be vastly outmatched by Drakian tanks and aircraft, but so would most tanks and aircraft in the rest of the other European militaries (they should be kinda of out of the loop of the Soviet/Drakian arms race stemming from the isolated war in Central Asia, until the war directly hits them).

Big Orange wrote:I always imagined the Fascist Italians would essentially be like the Chinese Nationalists, but on a smaller scale. Italian tanks and aircraft would be vastly outmatched by Drakian tanks and aircraft, but so would most tanks and aircraft in the rest of the other European militaries (they should be kinda of out of the loop of the Soviet/Drakian arms race stemming from the isolated war in Central Asia, until the war directly hits them).

Soviet developments spur German developments which spur everyone else's developments...

The Germans are second best after the Soviets, then there's everyone else, but they're still more advanced than historically, and have some excellent designs coming in the line.

It is pretty bad at first, though. 100,000 Spaniards, 250,000 Frenchmen, 50,000 Austrians, 25,000 Belgians, and 150,000 Germans comprise the first wave of troops going to help Italy, and they're chopped to bits, more or less. The second wave consists of 100,000 Americans, 250,000 French, 150,000 Swiss, 300,000 Germans, 100,000 Spanish, 50,000 Portuguese, 25,000 Irish, and another 25,000 Belgians. It's this force which finally manages to stop the Drakian offensive cold before it can break out of the mountains and into the Industry-packed Po Valley. There are some strong comparisons to how the Korean War goes, there.

By that time Polish and Czechoslovakian troops are being mustered to aide the Soviets rather than Italy directly as a result of the allied command; their protests to have some part in the reconquest of Rome, however, sees the formation of the Papal Legion, which will ultimately be 25,000-strong and ceremonial commanded by retired Swiss Guards who were found to reconstitute the unit from Switzerland. The Swiss and Austrians both send 50,000 troops into the Balkans as well.

Hungary remains out of the war until the coup by Otto Skorzeny installs a firmly pro-Catholic government under Otto Habsburg which joins the conflict, by which time the Polish have, during the Drakian invasion of the Ukraine, desperately fought off a Drakian offensive against Lvov, and the Czech army is fully involved against the Draka on the eastern front, while the Poles are being aided by significant German Army elements and by a 100,000-strong French expeditionary force. The German forces are equipped with the latest tanks and prove fully capable of taking on Citizen units.

Gradually a total of three German Theatre Groups are formed, one for Italy, one for the Balkans, and one for Poland/Belarus. A fourth smaller expeditionary force is attached to the Soviet Army, and a puppet government is established in the Netherlands which lets them man these units with the troops used to overrun the Netherlands. There was some debate about forming a German Army in southern Spain against the possibility of a Drakian crossing there, but I suspect that was left entirely to the Americans in the end.

Another thing I've been looking at is the Taiping small arms. OTL-wise Chinese forces used the Hanyang 88 and Type 24 rifle, along with the Zb. 26 and various other machine guns like the MG34 and the Maxim guns. I do think that these would still comprise a portion of the Chinese arsenal, but rechambered for the 7.62x54R cartridge. After all the Bren uses a rimmed cartridge as well.

The Taipings have a more sophisticated industry, and have factories for building Enfields, which were the prior service rifle. Actually, Enfields rechambered for soviet ammunition are probably the standard here, and then there's plenty of Mossie-nags the Soviets have sent them as well.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The Taipings have a more sophisticated industry, and have factories for building Enfields, which were the prior service rifle. Actually, Enfields rechambered for soviet ammunition are probably the standard here, and then there's plenty of Mossie-nags the Soviets have sent them as well.

Light machine gun wise, the ZB. 26 was a better performer than the DP 28, so something like the Bren would make sense.

[threadhijack]I'm more interested right now in the various island grabbing campaigns around say the comanoes and other islands that would provide the airbases that would eventually launch the Medium One.
I have a personal vision of Sao Tome as an island eternally under seige, so close to the cost that the Draka can retaliate in meaningful ways with their aircraft. Not to mention the elite Citizen units that sneak ashore in the night to sabotage the planes and kill the pilots or the other shenanigans that would be possible. There is another island, even closer to the coast of africa, but I have no idea if anyone would want to fight for Bioko/Fernando Poo/Masie Ngueme Biyogo Island. That one is only about 20 miles from the coast, so it would be an especially tough one to keep away from the Draka. But on the flipside, I have trouble envisioning the Draka keeping their enemys away from their near-coast islands, due to the area that must be defended and the superior numbers and quality of the British and American navies. After all, the Two Ocean Navy is in effect, but can afford to fight hardest against the Draka since the Japanese aren't actively fighting the US, right?[/threadhijack]

Vehrec wrote:[threadhijack]I'm more interested right now in the various island grabbing campaigns around say the comanoes and other islands that would provide the airbases that would eventually launch the Medium One.
I have a personal vision of Sao Tome as an island eternally under seige, so close to the cost that the Draka can retaliate in meaningful ways with their aircraft. Not to mention the elite Citizen units that sneak ashore in the night to sabotage the planes and kill the pilots or the other shenanigans that would be possible. There is another island, even closer to the coast of africa, but I have no idea if anyone would want to fight for Bioko/Fernando Poo/Masie Ngueme Biyogo Island. That one is only about 20 miles from the coast, so it would be an especially tough one to keep away from the Draka. But on the flipside, I have trouble envisioning the Draka keeping their enemys away from their near-coast islands, due to the area that must be defended and the superior numbers and quality of the British and American navies. After all, the Two Ocean Navy is in effect, but can afford to fight hardest against the Draka since the Japanese aren't actively fighting the US, right?[/threadhijack]

Since the Draka didn't have an independent navy until the 1920s, they only conquered the Spanish offshore island--I think Po is it--off Equatorial Guinea when they overran it. The Armada Espana was strong enough against the Drakian navy at that time to ward off a serious attempt at a landing in the northern islands off the coast of Morocco, consisting of a fair number of battleships, while the Draka only had seven in service at the time (their modern, high-end ships are a fairly new development).

Except for Madagascar, the rest of the islands off the African coast are entirely held by foreign powers hostile to the Draka here. Conversely they don't hold any in the Indian Ocean, either, leaving Ceylon extremely isolated.

Not even Madagascar? That changes some of my preconceptions, I had figured that they had bought/stolen all those places.

Vehrec wrote:Not even Madagascar? That changes some of my preconceptions, I had figured that they had bought/stolen all those places.

No, I meant they control only Madagascar.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Vehrec wrote:Not even Madagascar? That changes some of my preconceptions, I had figured that they had bought/stolen all those places.

No, I meant they control only Madagascar.

Oh, sorry. Reading that the first time, I skipped over the critical part that said 'EXCEPT FOR MADIGASCAR.' Well, that was rather silly of me and I now feel rather the fool.
Also the three names were all the ones that that particular island has borne from the colonial period to the present, although the first one is considered current by the NGS.

Question: are you guys referring to the Draka in S. M. Stirling's original novels-- the ones using 1980s tech in the 1940s-- or the more realistic-- i.e., nerfed-- Draka in the stories posted here?

Sidewinder wrote:Question: are you guys referring to the Draka in S. M. Stirling's original novels-- the ones using 1980s tech in the 1940s-- or the more realistic-- i.e., nerfed-- Draka in the stories posted here?

The later, of course.