StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Any word yet on publishers, the new title, maybe a release date for those of us who didn't get past X-Ray Blues?

Whoops, didn't see this before now. A quick update for those who aren't following my blog:

At this point, I can't even guess at a release date or publisher. Right now I'm editing the second draft; I'm in the early stage of that project, going though a hard copy and mostly making cuts (I'd say for every word I add, two are trimmed). Once that's done, I'll actually incorporate the changes into the file. Once I have a finished third draft, I'll start sending query letters to agents, while I do the final polishing. If and when an agent agrees to represent me, he or she will look for a publisher, not me.

The only guesstimate I can give on any date is the date I think the third draft will be finished. I've set a goal of 1 June for that. Past that, any number I give would be pulled straight out of my ass.

As for the new title? I've settled on The Last Great War.

I had thought, after reading that epilogue, that The Human Inheritance would be a better title. It wasn't so much about humanism in the end as what the survivors find themselves with and what they do with it. Being a bunch of messed up, evolved creatures, we inherit strife and war and a cycle of royally screwing up, but at the same time, there's always our tenacity that helps us cling to life during our struggles and hope that we'll do better after the next jump.

Hey, I'm not sure how much you know about science fiction publishing so I hesitate to even say anything, and you've probably done your research.

But in case you haven't take a look (please it will save you from scammers and save you loads of time) at this link, and in particular especially read this story. In general, agents are only useful for negotiating deals after you've already got a contract for your first novel from a major publisher. The brutal truth is there's only two kinds of agents in publishing... reputable and not-reputable, and the reputable ones get hundreds of solicitations each year and usually do not take new clients, while the non-reputable ones charge you money and do nothing, or worse: steal your shit.

In particular don't get into any kind of situation where you fork over a single cent, to anybody, for anything. Writing is fucking hard, and anybody who demands money to print is a scammer or a vanity press, and you might as well walk down the block to the nearest copy store and make your own if you want to do that.

Good luck,
Brian

Baen is pretty good about printing good stories from their slush pile, apparently.

Beowulf wrote:Baen is pretty good about printing good stories from their slush pile, apparently.

If you know about slush piles... do you want to tell him or want me to?

Average response time for most publishers is one whole year. Baen looks backlogged 1.5 years. And worse -- most publishers do not accept simultaneous submissions, which means your novel is stuck at one publisher for a year before you know if you're in. And if you get rejected, it won't be a long, ten page essay about how to fix the novel. That's if you're accepted. If you're rejected, it's a single page with a few sentences on it: "Sorry, this story didn't grab my interest" or something along those lines (I'm looking at one rejection letter right now.)

If you try and spam out your book to a dozen different publishers, and they all have instructions for "no simultaneous submissions" you get blacklisted. Most important is following their submission guidelines to the letter -- I read about one editor who wrote down that everybody had to have the manuscript bound by two rubber bands, and threw out every single manuscript who didn't follow that instruction without even reading a sentence just to cut down on the piles of total crap.

I am going to mention the same thing Broomstick told me a year ago: check out the critters if seriously interested in getting published, and uh without trying to be rude, 3 rewrites is usually not enough.

Anyway, good luck.

Mayabird wrote:I had thought, after reading that epilogue, that The Human Inheritance would be a better title. It wasn't so much about humanism in the end as what the survivors find themselves with and what they do with it. Being a bunch of messed up, evolved creatures, we inherit strife and war and a cycle of royally screwing up, but at the same time, there's always our tenacity that helps us cling to life during our struggles and hope that we'll do better after the next jump.

Yeah...The Last Great War sounds like a a H.G. Wells style scarepiece designed to influence defence spending.

On agents: the advice I've read from genre fiction authors seems to be split about 60/40 in favor of getting an agent. I'm aware of the scams out there (I've probably read most of the SFWA website by now), so I figure I ought to be able to tell a reputable agent from a con artist.

The depth of the slush piles at the big houses is one of the reasons I'm going for an agent first. Agent response times to a query is usually under six weeks; I could get a response from every single SF agent in the Writer's Market in the time it takes me to get one rejection letter from Baen. An agent bypasses the slush pile.

If I do wind up in the slush pile, so be it. I have, at last count, five novel-length story ideas I could write while I'm waiting for a response on HI, plus an armload of potential short stories.

As for the number of rewrites: I'm not concerned about the number of rewrites. If the book is done after 3, then the book is done after 3. If it's done after 10, then it's done after 10.

Thanks for the update, Red. Where's this blog?

I don't know about The Last Great War as a final title. It doesn't really pop for me, but it is less of a mouthful than The Humanist Inheritance and it's refreshingly more descriptive than all these recently trendy, single verb titles. In any case, I wish you luck and look forward to the final product.

Agents don't bypass the slush pile. Agents aren't editors (some editors are married to agents but each is a full-time job). They're more like lawyers who go over exactly what terms are in the contract to iron out the rights to make sure you're not fucked. An agent can't go to the editor of a major publisher, tell him hey this is a great read take a look at this, and get him down with a bottle of mineral water. The 60/40 statistic is misleading, because the 60 who have agents in their first sale get their agent after they've already got the contract. I have actually seen 10/90, actually people who got their agent to find publishers for them compared to people who don't, and the 10 would include big name writers who agents recognize.

I'm not saying don't try -- I'm saying that even if every single agent rejects you, you could still have something sellable, because unlike editors reputable agents judge people totally on reputation, reputation being how much potential money you can make.

There's only two ways to see it: A. that the novel is "good enough" to be published, and if so it should easily survive a slush pile, or B. agents reallly do help a lot getting the first novel accepted. I'm of the opinion that A is true, but let's say B is even slightly true (which you seem to think). I would not want my first novel to be printed for any reason other than the words on the page being captivating and moreover, original to the editor (the main reason why editors reject is they've seen the same thing literally tens of thousands of times.) Even if it does get printed, if your first novel is a bust as in low sales, it is very difficult to get a second or third novel printed since publishers will avoid your name like the plague. Science fiction readers are the most intelligent readers around, and if the words can't stand on their own but are "uplifted" by a sales pitch, they will cringe and never try you out again (exception being shit like Star Wars or Star Trek novels.) Being a "virgin" is the greatest asset of a new writer, but unlike sex if someone bites donkey the first time the girls don't give another chance.

You solve the "problem" of waiting for an editor by saying, I'll send it to an agent instead, but no answer is better than a wrong answer. The only solution to the problem is to make sure the novel is as good as possible before sending it out, by getting it torn apart by critters or a local workshop of writers. Then as soon as it's out to an editor, work on a new novel. I've read it takes a million words of writing before a person's good enough to sell: ten to fifteen novels. And that's only novels and not rough drafts or brainstorming or plot outlines or short fiction.

P.S. None of this is said to be discouraging. If you've read the whole SFWA website, you're ahead of most of the pack. Now there's all the science fiction author's websites, all the science fiction pulp magazines, the Nebula and Hugo Award winners and runner ups, and the stuff that's actually on a bookstore selling right now which is very different than the classics. Anyway good luck.

If one were to self-publish a story, how feasible is that?

montypython wrote:If one were to self-publish a story, how feasible is that?

Ask Stuart Slade, who's gone that route for The Big One verse.

montypython wrote:If one were to self-publish a story, how feasible is that?

What is the goal, to make money?

If by self-publishing you mean co-op press or vanity press then you're being scammed. If by self-publishing you mean go to a copy store and make tons of copies that look just like a real book, that is not a scam but done a lot all the time: desktop publishing.

But if the goal is to make money, there's no way bookstores will take a chance on you unless you're from one of the major labels. The reason is genre fiction is such a niche market, with a very critical readership. So a bookstore might have a small shelf for original fiction, and the rest is all Star Trek and Star Wars and the commercial brands. In that small shelf they want quality. It's the same reason why independent films don't get shown at the Cinemax or Paramount -- movie theatres won't take a chance with something without big time Hollywood names (although granted sometimes shit leaks through like Paris Hilton ugh but at least she's got a big name), and neither will bookstores. And the big name is not the name of an agent. It's the name of Tor, Ace, Baen, Del Ray.

Honestly with the advent of the Internet I see no reason to self-publish, unless someone really wants it in book form, because self-publishing can't make money. And I used to be against e-books, but I like them now.

edit: Just realized my analogy fails because independent film makers do make it big and that's how they get started, making their own film. But the reasoning is still solid: if you want to sell, forget independent publishing, and the reason is very brutal: the writing is likely not good enough for someone to pay 14.99 for it. You'd be laying yourself on the line for thousands of dollars for crates of books, and it could be all crap, when you could write on paper or your computer and spend zero.