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This thread is for discussing Episodes I-III and related material. From now on, please direct all ideas and arguments to this thread instead of the one in PSW. Thank you.

This post unites some of my later posts in the Pure Star Wars thread and brings it over hear. I figure these points could be used as a basis or an idea jumping off point.


I think it also needs to be shown in the movies that by the end Palpatine controlled both the Republic factions and all the disparate Clone Wars factions. That he controlled the galaxy even before he was declared Emperor and thus gained it 'legally.' The reveal that he was behind all of it was such a WOW moment it should be retained.

As do I think the combat between Palpatine and Yoda. That was a very important battle - its why Yoda decided to go into hiding. By fighting he realized that the Sith had one, and only time and patience could free the galaxy. Not war. So he realized that the only way to win was to loose in the shorterm. That is a very important aspect.

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My one demand is that we actually see Palpatine be crowned Emperor. That the scene within the Senate Chamber occurs, even if it occurs differently. That NEEDS to be shown. Palpatine needs to have that win visible on screen, its one of the more epic moments in all of Star Wars.

We also need to see the creation of Moffs and their sending throughout the galaxy.

That said, okay, the general timeline of most prequel events could be brought into books.

Do you want Palpatine to become Emperor in 2 or 3. I recommend at the end of 2 that way we can have the putting down the coup be pretty much all of 3.

Episode 1 could have Palpatine captured in the Battle of Coruscant. Which is a pretty epic battle. It will also need to include something else, probably a lot relating to Anakin and his corruption by Palpatine. Innocent though it might be at this time. I think we should also have him meet Padme at this time. Who could be the Senator from Naboo, since Palpatine is already Chancellor.

The movie could start with a star destroyer-shaped ship moving over Coruscant. We think its alone at first but then as we pan out we realize that its actually not alone, that it is one ship in a huge fleet trying to defend the planet as the separatists (general use for the enemy) attack.

Episode 2 will be a few years after Episode 1 and will be pretty much the concept of the Galactic Government trying to clean up Separatist actions. So the enemies of Episode 2 are still the enemies of the Clone Wars, they are not urstwhile allies. This Episode will end with Palpatine being crowned.

Episode 3 will be after a note that the certain Republic factions decided that Palpatine is not who they thought he was. The battles of this movie will show some internal cleaning, the removal of those forces that were allied in Episode 1 or 2. It will have as its cumulative peace the Duel and the Vaderization of Anakin. As it ends we will see Darth Vader marching into a planet or something killing Jedi directly and openly. It will end with the twin suns of Tatooine. This could be the only time it is shown in the Prequel, but it needs to be shown.

I like the idea that some of the friends of Episode 1 and 2 will be enemeis and hunted in Episode 3. This would be an interesting switch. Because the winners are actually the bad guys.

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Non Episode Points

I think that Palpatine should have become a Senator a decade or so before the Clone Wars began. Thus he could say that there was a time when he did not serve in a war. It would allow him some nice political pull.

I think that Palpatine should have become Chancellor about 10 or so years before the first movie. This grants him a lot of time but not soo much time as the official leader. It also allows things like 'how did he extend his term in office' and all that.

I say that the events of the official Episode 1 movie, the Naboo Crisis, should also occur. And it should be the events that make Palpatine the Chancellor. It might not happen in our version of Episode 1, but I think it should occur nontheless. I think Qui-Gon Jinn should die at this point fighting Darth Maul. Obi-Wan kills Maul. Its an interesting battle and should be kept, even if not in the movie.

I think that when Palpatine became Chancellor, Padme became the Senator from Naboo. I think that works.

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Timeline

-50 I - Palpatine is appointed to the Galactic Senate as representative of Naboo.

-40c I - This is the date some historians point as being the start of the Clone Wars.

-10c I - The Naboo Crisis. Senator Palpatine becomes elected Chancellor Palpatine.

-5 I - The Battle of Coruscant. (Episode 1)

-0 I - Palpatine becomes Emperor. Rise of the Galactic Empire. Battles against enemy holdouts. (Episode 2)

3 I - The Duel. The Purge. The end of the Jedi. The Rise of Darth Vader. (Episode 3)

Right. I do not have that much time right now, but I have checked the PSW thread and its latest discussions. Some quick points:

*I do not think we should throw out the introduction of the "young" Anakin. If he is to parallel Luke, we should see his introduction to war and the Jedi, preferably by having him picked up by Kenobi. I actually agree that this should be set a number of years (perhaps as much as ten) before the main PT saga, as Lucas had it. Then we can have his character development fleshed out, complete with marriage and fall.

*We should see some major battling in the Clone Wars; Ep II should be their climax, not their slow death. Have the major battles here, with Palpatine at the helm and Anakin getting the Knights' Cross of the Republican Cross, or whatever their ultimate medal is, for his heroism. Damnit, that conflict is too important to leave outside the main PT!

*I agree with the point of setting Ep III later still, perhaps ten years after Ep II, when the Empire has already been established and people are starting to have their doubts. I disagree with Illuminatus's division of the eras; I see no need for a "Dark Time", Clone Wars leading into Empire is good enough for me. What should the "Dark Times" signify, anyway?

I'm also considering old models like the Stele Chronicles, the Encyclopedia, the Farlander Papers which had the Clone Wars end and then an interlude which led to the Empire (the Wars originally ended in 35 BBY, which is the source for pegging the Great ReSynchronization there). I'd really like the wars to be ending or at their climax. I think keeping Anakin out of generalling on screen saves us a lot of awkwardness with Jedi as officers. It really is difficult when you think of it to realistically portray a Jedi apprentice and his master somehow training and serving as Jedi while simultaneously serving in a sensible military hierarchy, arguably Lucas himself ran into this problem and gave us platoon/squad-leading generals and Anakin and Obi-Wan as co-commanders. He wisely stayed away from Luke as a military officer in the films, only portraying him as a fighter pilot and later a unit commander but only briefly. I wouldn't mind having Anakin as a general in Episode I or something, who plans and led Palpatine's rescue with a fleet, but when it seems they're going to escape with him, he personally fights his way to the flagship and personally boards it to find and rescue Palpatine. His foolhardy personal risks should be portrayed as emergency heroics to salvage a crisis, not part of the plan. This is kind of similar to TESB and Luke's brief role as a soldier, who then leaves for a Jedi quest. Instead he can be brought back by Obi-Wan after being a hero of the wars for a noble quest.

I'd like for Anakin to know Palpatine but not have gotten really close. My idea is that Anakin is a half-trained Jedi Knight with extreme talent but who was never properly educated or trained because both he and Obi-Wan got caught up with the war; now Anakin is following a path as a Jedi and resuming his training and service. This should conflict with his identity as a soldier and a general. And Palpatine steps into the gaps to offer him a solution to his increasing tension with Obi-Wan with forbidden knowledge, who he feels is too conservative and "holding him back." I kind of like that Anakin's fall should be over a pursuit for immortality, because that mirrors Dark Empire ironically in several respects. It could even still be over his wife, but this is only the straw that broke the camel's back to get him to outright betray the Jedi (he'd already been a creeping authoritarian and Palpatinist, and already been exposed to Sith arcana, perhaps not by Palpatine saying he's a Sith Lord, but simply giving him access to his secret collection of ancient books).

I'm also trying to keep the length of the PT down. Maybe 4-5 years. No more than 10. I'm trying to narrow focus as "the Fall of Anakin Skywalker." So he should start out famous or great or just about to reach his apex, and then he begins to tragically descend into darkness through poor decisions and human flaws. The "Rise of Anakin Skywalker" and the Clone Wars are separate stories, just like the "Temptation of Luke Skywalker" (Dark Empire/The Test of Wills) and the Civil War (imagine trying to tell the entire Civil War in the background of three films, and then think of how broad our Clone Wars concept is, and think about how difficult it is to do that without choking on having bitten too much to chew). The "Rise of Anakin Skywalker" should be detailed in an supporting/continuing prequel to the Prequel Trilogy - it should be to the Prequel Trilogy what the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire/The Test of Wills is to the Original Trilogy.

I think the acclamation should be concurrent with the purge and coup attempt. I think it should be the Reichstag fire of the Empire. Although, have Palpatine's grip been tightening for a decade or more, and everything of the Empire is in place except the name and throne. And the Jedi and old Republicans are already on their last legs, hence their betrayal of Palpatine.

There are some points there - Jedi could make excellent Generals with their precog and telepathy, but that might not be what people are expecting to see in terms of action.

I would have the Purge some time into the actual Empire, as Palpatine tightens up things. I would portray him as the initial friend of the the Jedi in the administration, during the Wars, perhaps an interventionist who wishes the Republic to actually support the Jedi against the enemy instead of waiting on the sidelines (FDR-esque, if you like). The Jedi should be among his strongest supporters as Emperor, at least at first. The actual purging of the Jedi should be more of a Stalinesque purge and less of a holocaust, emphasising that the morally flexible could still jump over to the Inquisitorius or whatever else Palpatine used to replace the Order.

I did have the idea to make the Inquisitorius an actual arm of the Jedi Order charged with the recruitment and surveillance of Force-sensitives and the suppression of witches (Krath, Nightsisters), apostates (Dark Jedi) and heretics (Sith).

It's darkly ironic, I think.

I was thinking post-Reichstag reign of terror, personally. I also thought to myself since the powers of the Emperor are somewhat constrained and the Senate still exists (if overwhelmingly supporting Palpatine), that it was key that crushing the coup was executed by Anakin Skywalker, hero of the galaxy due to his prestige and credibility. Then the follow-up I'd have mobs, Free Corps of Clone War veterans (now fully co-ordinated into the Palpatinist movement), and private and local militaries (like how Ptolemaic Egypt assassinated Pompeius Magnus in order to curry favor with Caesar when they saw how the wind was blowing) do a lot of the bloodying. A small number of directly-coup-participating senators and Jedi relatively speaking would be arrested or killed by the military (though the Neo-Republicans would later exaggerate it as a top-down Palpatinist reign of terror), with much of the wetwork being done by dominion's armed forces and Free Corps. I'd have the majority of direct purging be of sympathetic or participating factions of the military (the sympathizing 'silent fraction' would be the conservative Republican-leaning Generationals who didn't feel comfortable opposing Palpatine, their erstwhile patron and savior of the galaxy, even if they're staunchly Republican and against his radical reforms; these guys would make up a majority faction of the New Republic armed forces in the soon-after-Endor period).

The Jedi have an arm already for that, the so-called Jedi Shadows.

"Jedi Inquisition" sounds better, especially for our Jedi KNIGHTS as opposed to Lucas's monks. Or at least, such is my opinion. And, of course, it is mentioned in TotJ.

Interestingly, that relationship is touched upon in the Dark Forces Saga from Wizards: Maw, one of Jerec's Dark Jedi, was originally a Shadow, who found it easy to transfer to the Inqs one the regime change was established; effectively, he was loyal to the job, not the management. I would keep this and build on it.

I like the idea that most of the Inquisitors were not Force magi though. I agree they should be the "invisible core"; what the Sith were to the public leadership of the Clone Wars, Palpatine's most Inner Circle to the Imperial Ruling Council, etc. This too could be adapted from the Jedi Inquisition, if the Jedi Inquisition also recruited a vast network of "baseline" spies and auxiliaries.

That last sentence was interesting; we rarely see any details of the Jedi support network in general. We should build on that idea, especially for something like the Inquisition. "Jedi Shadows" could be explained away as a nickname or colloquialism, like Publius does with the more retardedly named Imperial institutions (e.g., the "School of Torturers" . . . what was that author thinking of, a pulpish Oriental despotate?).

Incidentally, what is the evidence that Publius used to claim that most of the Inquisitorius was not Force-sensitive? I know of the specific examples of Slosin and (arguably) Jerec, but is there anything to imply that they were not simply rare exceptions? I am not talking about grassroots, networks of informers &c., but the actual Inqs agents, lightsabre-carrying and all.

Jerec specifically concealed the fact he was Force-sensitive and a former Jedi, which is impossible if they are all Force-sensitive or publicly acknowledged as such. Furthermore, I doubt Palpatine would want such a well-organized Force-magi order, preferring instead his informal and internally-competing web of Force-magi agents, favorites, aides, spies, and specialists that compose his Heirarchy. Furthermore, there is an Inquisition Module to the Taskforce Modular Cruiser which can transport hundreds of inquisitors and their equipment. I consider it unlikely that an inquisition would require a galactic production run of ships, for hundreds of them per unit, if they were all Force-magi. Personally, I like the idea that the extended Hierarchy (I imagine that many Hierarchs, especially the more powerful like Jerec and Vader, themselves host their own retinue and clientele - a little Hierarchy - of their own probably and ignorant of the Palpatine-centric body) is probably a thousand persons or less in size. Who says everyone who carries a lightsaber must be a Jedi Knight? They carry disruptors too.

Anyway, I'm thinking both Palpatine and his inner circle trust Anakin, and he's also confided in by the Jedi-conservative Republican military-conservative Republican senator coup conspiracy. He finally makes his decision and is an accomplice in Windu's killing (the Jedi party being considered the arresting party of the coup, and accelerated by Windu's decision upon learning the truth from Anakin, but is only the arrest component of the greater coup plan), then he uses his knowledge to eradicate the coup (perhaps an analog of the Seperatist massacre, he travels before the Senate-military conspirators on Alderaan or something would know to them and kills them while still officially in their confidence).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Jerec specifically concealed the fact he was Force-sensitive and a former Jedi, which is impossible if they are all Force-sensitive or publicly acknowledged as such.

Of course, it did not originally think him an Inquisitor, which simply makes this a counterintuitive situation that no one thought through at the time when they retconned him into one. And the lightsabre was pretty explicitly associated with the Jedi, rare exceptions such as Baron Tagge notwithstanding. Perhaps one could point to the secretive nature of the Inquisitorius in general?

But yes, it is canon, which is why I brought it up.

Furthermore, there is an Inquisition Module to the Taskforce Modular Cruiser which can transport hundreds of inquisitors and their equipment. I consider it unlikely that an inquisition would require a galactic production run of ships, for hundreds of them per unit, if they were all Force-magi. Personally, I like the idea that the extended Hierarchy (I imagine that many Hierarchs, especially the more powerful like Jerec and Vader, themselves host their own retinue and clientele - a little Hierarchy - of their own probably and ignorant of the Palpatine-centric body) is probably a thousand persons or less in size.

Why? Why cannot it be that they need a hundred relatively weak magi to subdue a planet (each of those modules was supposedly for planetary subjugation, including superweapons and prefabricated death camps)? Not all Jedi are wraith-like, ISD-throwing, army-mindfucking wankmonsters, and not all Dark Side Adepts need be, either. Furthermore, why must the number of Force-sensitives be arbitrarily capped at such low levels? That reeks of leftover Lucas minimalism. The Jedi Order as a few thousand individuals does not make sense on a galactic scale, and neither does a similarly minuscule Inquisitorius, unless Palpatine is keeping an unnaturally tight leash on them. Basically, they would not be effective for their supposed job of hunting down rogues and Jedi.

Darth Hoth wrote:Of course, it did not originally think him an Inquisitor, which simply makes this a counterintuitive situation that no one thought through at the time when they retconned him into one. And the lightsabre was pretty explicitly associated with the Jedi, rare exceptions such as Baron Tagge notwithstanding. Perhaps one could point to the secretive nature of the Inquisitorius in general?

Quite honestly, this sounds like "I don't like this evidence." And why should lightsabers be associated with the Jedi only? I like the idea that other quaint circles use them, and I like the idea of dark side adepts remaining shadowy figures while there be public and foreboding inquisitors. And quite frankly, it works because Han's perspective seems to imply that most people have been convinced in skepticism for the Force, and that that this was encouraged by the Empire. Why would anyone believe that if there were state-sanctioned and promoted organizations of Force adepts?

Darth Hoth wrote:Why? Why cannot it be that they need a hundred relatively weak magi to subdue a planet (each of those modules was supposedly for planetary subjugation, including superweapons and prefabricated death camps)? Not all Jedi are wraith-like, ISD-throwing, army-mindfucking wankmonsters, and not all Dark Side Adepts need be, either.

Why not? I prefer a mix between their prequel direct/"hard" feats and Zahnite "soft" feats. That is, the pinnacle of direct Force application is Palpatine. But even Joruus C'boath, who can only wreck a stone-hewn hall, can psychically influence whole fleets. Palpatine could influence a whole galaxy. Its not just their conscious powers, its the fact they seem to bend luck and destiny around them (as well as being guided by it). There's just something about them which gives them dominance and shifts-the-balance. Its about the fact with enough brilliance and knowledge and training, the possibilities are literally endless. Its about the fact the Jedi are essential because they represent the taming of this great power with awesome responsibility and service. Contrariwise, the Sith believe that power for its own sake. It gives credence to the importance of Force magi if moderately strong one with a good plan and devious cunning can conquer a planet. As Palpatine says, the Jedi could have ruled as kings had they wanted. They're knights errant. They're supposed to be special and unique in of themselves. And furthermore, why not keep the dark side adepts secret and shadowy - like mini-Palpatine's, with the Inquisitorius as a sinister front? The Force magi in general should be quasi-supernatural supermen - metaphorical giants wading amongst mere mortals, Greek heroes or demigods amongst every day men, comic superheroes par excellence amongst the common citizenry -, and Anakin is the superman of supermen.

Darth Hoth wrote:Furthermore, why must the number of Force-sensitives be arbitrarily capped at such low levels? That reeks of leftover Lucas minimalism.

We're not maximalistic for its own sake, man. We are with tech and society and military because we SEE the Death Star and we know what a GALAXY is. I don't mind higher numbers. But I prefer the idea that the inquisitorius as a public institution is not Force-sensitive, but it is controlled and used as a front for the dark side adepts. Their public face and mailed fist.

Darth Hoth wrote:The Jedi Order as a few thousand individuals does not make sense on a galactic scale, and neither does a similarly minuscule Inquisitorius, unless Palpatine is keeping an unnaturally tight leash on them. Basically, they would not be effective for their supposed job of hunting down rogues and Jedi.

I think the Jedi should be in the billions or so. I guess we could have maybe a hundred thousand or million of officially registered-with-Byss dark side adepts.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Quite honestly, this sounds like "I don't like this evidence." And why should lightsabers be associated with the Jedi only? I like the idea that other quaint circles use them, and I like the idea of dark side adepts remaining shadowy figures while there be public and foreboding inquisitors. And quite frankly, it works because Han's perspective seems to imply that most people have been convinced in skepticism for the Force, and that that this was encouraged by the Empire. Why would anyone believe that if there were state-sanctioned and promoted organizations of Force adepts?

Well, the Inquisitorius could be quasi-secretive, so that they were mostly rumour or sinister G-men in all but the highest circles, somewhat akin to various "MIB" analogues in other settings. I certainly never imagined them to be ubiquitous Force-empowered Stormtroopers. Or, Han might never have seen them, living in the Outer Rim and generally making a concerted effort to stay as far away from the authorities as possible. He would have heard enough tall tales in the bars and cantinas he frequents to dismiss those talking of dark-robed wizards carrying away the kin of Jedi.

As for Jerec's case, I do acknowledge it and said so. That does not stop me from calling it counterintuitive, given that pretty much all other evidence we have seen on lightsabres, in EU and films alike, links them to Force-users (even kiddie Anakin on Tatooine recognised them immediately; that Luke did not was likely due to an especially sheltered childhood, with his guardians fearing the Empire's attention).

Why not? I prefer a mix between their prequel direct/"hard" feats and Zahnite "soft" feats. That is, the pinnacle of direct Force application is Palpatine. But even Joruus C'boath, who can only wreck a stone-hewn hall, can psychically influence whole fleets. Palpatine could influence a whole galaxy. Its not just their conscious powers, its the fact they seem to bend luck and destiny around them (as well as being guided by it). There's just something about them which gives them dominance and shifts-the-balance. Its about the fact with enough brilliance and knowledge and training, the possibilities are literally endless. Its about the fact the Jedi are essential because they represent the taming of this great power with awesome responsibility and service. Contrariwise, the Sith believe that power for its own sake. It gives credence to the importance of Force magi if moderately strong one with a good plan and devious cunning can conquer a planet. As Palpatine says, the Jedi could have ruled as kings had they wanted. They're knights errant. They're supposed to be special and unique in of themselves. And furthermore, why not keep the dark side adepts secret and shadowy - like mini-Palpatine's, with the Inquisitorius as a sinister front? The Force magi in general should be quasi-supernatural supermen - metaphorical giants wading amongst mere mortals, Greek heroes or demigods amongst every day men, comic superheroes par excellence amongst the common citizenry -, and Anakin is the superman of supermen.

I agree with much of what you are saying here, but how well does it mesh with the actual sources, film or canon EU? I think it is quite apparent that Force-users vary a fair lot in potential and raw power - you have people like Zannah, for example, who can effortlessly kill off Jedi veterans when she herself is seven or eight, and then you have people like Tionne or Tyria who never learn much anything. I am not saying that we should dumb down or arbitrarily limit the Jedi - I like Force-wankery a lot, as compared to others - but they should probably not all be Marvel-class superheroes.

The idea of the Inquisitorius should be "dark and shadowy" by itself; they should be the secret agents of the throne, sinister shadows in the night who sweep in leaving no messengers. I would have them rather less formal, more a personal mechanism of Palpatine's than an official agency of the state.

We're not maximalistic for its own sake, man. We are with tech and society and military because we SEE the Death Star and we know what a GALAXY is. I don't mind higher numbers. But I prefer the idea that the inquisitorius as a public institution is not Force-sensitive, but it is controlled and used as a front for the dark side adepts. Their public face and mailed fist.

Should it be very public at all? That strikes me as derivative of 40k and not all that in character with the Empire as it stands. Could we have it quasi-official, a bit like the Prophets of the Dark Side/Secret Order of the Emperor, perhaps?

I think the Jedi should be in the billions or so. I guess we could have maybe a hundred thousand or million of officially registered-with-Byss dark side adepts.

Why that much fewer? Certainly, the Purge should be devastating, but lowering the numbers by such orders of magnitude and having it remain there twenty years later?

Darth Hoth wrote:Well, the Inquisitorius could be quasi-secretive, so that they were mostly rumour or sinister G-men in all but the highest circles, somewhat akin to various "MIB" analogues in other settings. I certainly never imagined them to be ubiquitous Force-empowered Stormtroopers. Or, Han might never have seen them, living in the Outer Rim and generally making a concerted effort to stay as far away from the authorities as possible. He would have heard enough tall tales in the bars and cantinas he frequents to dismiss those talking of dark-robed wizards carrying away the kin of Jedi.

Then there is no meaningful or distinctful differences aside from the fact you want it acknowledged that the Inquisitorius was composed of Force magi and I do not. Why did we make The New Order in Power in-house canon if we're going to violate it constantly and at will? I prefer the idea the dark side of the Inquisitorius is yet another layer beneath the shadowy organization itself. Besides, the Inquisitorius is an official component of the Imperial State, and the state as I see it should make a pretense to itself of being fully-secular (while its really being violated like a whore by the dark side occultists).

Darth Hoth wrote:As for Jerec's case, I do acknowledge it and said so. That does not stop me from calling it counterintuitive, given that pretty much all other evidence we have seen on lightsabres, in EU and films alike, links them to Force-users (even kiddie Anakin on Tatooine recognised them immediately; that Luke did not was likely due to an especially sheltered childhood, with his guardians fearing the Empire's attention).

And the original concept for lightsabers being more common? Canonical depictions like arming Tepani nobles with foil-versions? Make it a bit more ambiguous instead of a dull "Jedi vs. Sith" angle. You could even have a hard-core secularist Inquisitor who doesn't realize his organization is a glove for the occultists, and finds out to his dismay that his senior superiors are all cultists or magi.

Darth Hoth wrote:I agree with much of what you are saying here, but how well does it mesh with the actual sources, film or canon EU?

You on one hand don't want the inquisitors to be non-Force-magi predominantly, despite that being the best interpretation of the standing evidence, and on the other you want wussy Jedi because that's what some evidence says?

Darth Hoth wrote:I think it is quite apparent that Force-users vary a fair lot in potential and raw power - you have people like Zannah, for example, who can effortlessly kill off Jedi veterans when she herself is seven or eight, and then you have people like Tionne or Tyria who never learn much anything. I am not saying that we should dumb down or arbitrarily limit the Jedi - I like Force-wankery a lot, as compared to others - but they should probably not all be Marvel-class superheroes.

I think the vast majority should be Marvel-class superheroes. The top of the bell-curve should be in that territory. The lessers should have very specific talents and specializations. Like Tionne, the archivist and Jedi archeologist.

Darth Hoth wrote:The idea of the Inquisitorius should be "dark and shadowy" by itself; they should be the secret agents of the throne, sinister shadows in the night who sweep in leaving no messengers. I would have them rather less formal, more a personal mechanism of Palpatine's than an official agency of the state.

Which IS totally inconsistent with the evidence. I think you want to have your cake and eat it too based genuinely on whimsy, and apply standards of support and standing canon consistency irregularly as a result. We're using The New Order in Power as a reference. We agreed on that. Furthermore, your concept of the Inquisitorius is what the Secret Order of the Emperor is, or the Hierarchy in general. Furthermore, using "inquisitor" for a completely informal agency is absurd considering we're now considering it the descendent or mirror image of an official Jedi organization and considering historical inquisitors developed a complex trial and legal system with law enforcement agents, courts, interrogators, etc. The Inquisition is just that, an inquisition. It has specialist torturers and lawyers, it has show trials for Christ's sake. Your vision is not bad, in of itself, but its not consistent with the supported and attributed concept of the Inquisitorius, inconsistent with historical treatments of inquisitors, and already met by other groups - the Hierarchy in general, and the Secret Order in particular. Better yet, why not have anti-Jedi and self-policing agents amongst the Secret Order as well? It'd be just like Palpatine to have the larger official state agency of the Inquisitorius and then another group played closer to the chest with overlapping responsibility (think ISB vs. Imperial Intelligence). I actually think that's really interesting. Its what he would do.

Darth Hoth wrote:Should it be very public at all? That strikes me as derivative of 40k and not all that in character with the Empire as it stands. Could we have it quasi-official, a bit like the Prophets of the Dark Side/Secret Order of the Emperor, perhaps?

We have those - the Secret Order and Prophets - for that purpose, we retained them both in the EU they are depicted in and The New Order in Power as an in-house official reference. The entire point of an INQUISITION is to cow obedience and suppress heresy. The entire conception is meaningless if it lacks any exposure. Its like the Nazis only -secretly- disliking and persecuting Jews.

Darth Hoth wrote:Why that much fewer? Certainly, the Purge should be devastating, but lowering the numbers by such orders of magnitude and having it remain there twenty years later?

No, I'm saying the Jedi should number billions (not decided on the order of magnitude maybe tens?). The "officially-registered, Imperial" dark side adepts should number in the hundreds of thousands counting every Jerec to every little Prophet, every little magi Inquisitor, and Secret Order agent.

Darth Hoth

*As I have stated I am all for keeping as much as we can. So yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing what you have written happen.

*I agree. We need to have battles and wars in the movie.

By the way, I still think that the ascension to the Galactic Throne should be in Episode 2. While Episode 3 is Empire era.

*I agree with you on the third point about the time frame of Episode 3. It makes sense to me and it also makes it 10 years after the Empire's birth that Anakin becomes Vader, the twins are born and the Purge begins.

I also like the concept of the allies and friends of the first two movies becoming enemeis and targeted for death in the third. Its irony and tradgedy and thus good material.

In my opinion the difference between Episode 1, 2 and 3 and 4, 5 and 6 is that in the first three the 'bad' guys win. While in 4, 5 and 6 the good guys win. That difference is still here even if we establish Episode 3 as 10 years into Empire. Palpatine's forces win almsot every battle that they engage in the most telling and exacting of ways.

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As to Jedi as officers, I think that their portrayal as leading from the front as in the real PT works. With their combat abilities I see them directly attacking with small units of men around them, mostly. Some Jedi will be different of course, but I think Anakin and Obi-wan would be the lead from the front guys, despite being generals.

I also think that being Jedi they are outside of the normal chain of command as it pertains to them accepting orders. They may go where they wish, do what they wish, without worry about court marshalling and official censure. They are Jedi and they go where their Force senses aid them.

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I think we should narrow it down to both the Fall of Anakin Skywalker and the Rise of the Empire. Both points coinside and are back to back and won't need much additional attention. Just a special scene hear and there. But they are both important and should be Episode-ized.

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First of all, in my opinion the Purge was a highly successful galaxy-spanning campaign. So highly successful that only a few dozen Jedi managed to survive it. Not hundreds, thousands, or millions, a few dozen.

I think to do otherwise reduces the importance of the survival of Obi-Wan and Yoda.

I also think that Force Users run the range of huge galaxy-spanning power to little itsy bitsy person who can only heat water. The lower end are by far the most numerous with reduction as one gets higher. And I also think that below a certain threshold of power neither the Jedi or the Sith would want you as official members - you are meaningless and pretty much powerless compared to the heights you could have achieved.

I like the idea of Palpatine absorbing the Jedi Inquistion. Its a nice touch I think.

I want to mention that just because I accept Publius's documents as usable in this doesn't mean I won't mention when I disagree with him or that I automatically think if he wrote it it is right. We are ignoring things form the official canon of Star Wars - the movies themselves - why should we automatically accept what a fan created, no matter how most of what he writes is amazing.

If something he writes is considered a little off, like numbers or names or whatever then I will open it up for discussion for us to decide if that small aspect should be kept or modified. To do otherwise is blatantly contradictory of what we are doing in practically every other field.

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Primus,

When you say billions of Jedi do you mean fully ranked and Obi-Wan level Jedi. Because I think that is too high. I don't think that there should be that many that managed to pass the highly exacting training that I think they should have.

In addition, I support Darth Hoth in his point about how Lightsabers are Jedi-weapons. They require the extra speed and sensors of the Force (or being cybernetic) to use. And I think that is an official position that we should keep.

Admiral Felire wrote:I want to mention that just because I accept Publius's documents as usable in this doesn't mean I won't mention when I disagree with him or that I automatically think if he wrote it it is right. We are ignoring things form the official canon of Star Wars - the movies themselves - why should we automatically accept what a fan created, no matter how most of what he writes is amazing.

Because we accepted it as in-house canon, aaannndd, I'd like to see any of us dedicate the time or energy to come up with something which keeps as much evidence as it did while coming up with as fleshed-out a system which works and makes sense as well as his did. I'm using it because it means I don't have to have a year of arguments on what the Empire's courts should look like and be called, and because I doubt what we'd come up with would be as good, or better enough to justify the extra time wasted.

Admiral Felire wrote:If something he writes is considered a little off, like numbers or names or whatever then I will open it up for discussion for us to decide if that small aspect should be kept or modified. To do otherwise is blatantly contradictory of what we are doing in practically every other field.

Except you're not describing it. You're just saying, "I don't like that." You're not explaining why it doesn't work, or how you would do it better, and what purpose it serves to make that change.

Admiral Felire wrote:Primus,

When you say billions of Jedi do you mean fully ranked and Obi-Wan level Jedi. Because I think that is too high. I don't think that there should be that many that managed to pass the highly exacting training that I think they should have.

There are QUINTILLIONS (personally, I think it should be 10-100 times as many*) or more individual beings in the galaxy. That is 1x10^18. In other words, a Jedi Order 1 billion relative to SW is equivalent to 7 Jedi compared to the entire population of Earth. If there are 2 quintillion people, then that's the equivalent of us having 3.5 Jedi. If there are 10 quintillion people (I think there should be maybe 10 times that minimum), that's .7 Jedi.

Admiral Felire wrote:In addition, I support Darth Hoth in his point about how Lightsabers are Jedi-weapons. They require the extra speed and sensors of the Force (or being cybernetic) to use. And I think that is an official position that we should keep.

Why? Why do they require Force talents to use? I think the older concept is better. And SW is so big, I'd be surprised if there weren't a group of lightsaber-wielding people cybernetically-enhanced merely for that skill set. SW is that big, even freak eccentrics have a shitload of friends.

You completely ignored my pointing out that this use of Inquisitorius is inconsistent with the attributed version, inconsistent with historical inquisitions, and needlessly duplicates an existing organization in the Secret Order.

And I think Palpatine should be acclaimed emperor in Episode III.

*I think that most of the major worlds in the Core Worlds should be like Coruscant, or otherwise have very large artificial habitations and have comparable populations (100s of trillions minimum).

Admiral Felire wrote:As to Jedi as officers, I think that their portrayal as leading from the front as in the real PT works. With their combat abilities I see them directly attacking with small units of men around them, mostly. Some Jedi will be different of course, but I think Anakin and Obi-wan would be the lead from the front guys, despite being generals.

Absolutely not. This is the most eye-rollingly retarded ridiculous thing in the canonical depiction of the Clone War. You cannot command combined-arms maneuver combat purely from plans or with a conference call, and while risking your ass on the front. Jedi on the front should be heavy ordinance/artillery magnets. Its totally absurd.

Admiral Felire wrote:I also think that being Jedi they are outside of the normal chain of command as it pertains to them accepting orders. They may go where they wish, do what they wish, without worry about court marshalling and official censure. They are Jedi and they go where their Force senses aid them.

So we've added a group of retard-fighting commissars who interfering inconsistently of their own accord? That'll be great for fighting spirit and command and control.

Admiral Felire wrote: First of all, in my opinion the Purge was a highly successful galaxy-spanning campaign. So highly successful that only a few dozen Jedi managed to survive it. Not hundreds, thousands, or millions, a few dozen.

I do agree most should not make it, and those who do are often broken and commit suicide or give up Jedi life permanently. They're also not going to wear hermit robes! Obi-Wan was not hiding on Tattooine in the Jedi uniform!

Admiral Felire wrote:I think to do otherwise reduces the importance of the survival of Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Agreed.

Admiral Felire wrote:I also think that Force Users run the range of huge galaxy-spanning power to little itsy bitsy person who can only heat water. The lower end are by far the most numerous with reduction as one gets higher. And I also think that below a certain threshold of power neither the Jedi or the Sith would want you as official members - you are meaningless and pretty much powerless compared to the heights you could have achieved.

I disagree. I think Force senstivity should be a bell-curve with most people in the middle (no meaningful sensitivity) and the sensitive at the very far tip of the trend upward. But amongst actually trained Jedi, the bell curve should be centered on superheroes and Greek hero-demigods. They're not going to take you if you're weak unless you have superb specialized talents.

I'm actually working on a more in-depth writeup on the Jedi Order. I'll try to get it presentable in the next day or so.

I don't have a problem using it. I say we should use it. I supported that move and I continue to support it. His document is one of the best and well-written fan work out their. That said, I also don't have a problem with complaining and opening for discussion some of the things he said in that document. He is not in this project and I was not working with him when he wrote it out (much as I would have loved to been a sounding board for him writing that out, it would have been fun). But I can have some say in how we implement some of the facts that he writes up, and I will have a say. That is why I am in this project.

About your second point, I was talking in general not really specific.

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I get your numbers, and yeah population wise I vote huge increase in galactic numbers. And I don't have a problem with there being that many Force Sensitives or other levels of Jedi. But I don;t think that there should be billions of Jedi Knights or Masters.

I do think 10,000 is a little two small, of course, but billions. I am not so sure. Because, mostly, I think that the Jedi only accept the best of the best and that their training is hard and takes years and is quite formitable. Not something that anybody with Force potential could go thtorugh.

As to the lightsabers, that is both the sense that I got from reading the books and watching the movies. But its more than a sense I remember that many times its mentioned its a weapon requriing balance and response and all that that only a Force Sensitive can use readily. And I think that makes it a better weapon and why it is more traditional and forgotten about in the post-Republic Era.

--
I ignored the discussion about the Inquisiton because I honestly do not care which one of the points win.

I mean I think it should be a real Inquisition and not an unofficial one. I think it should have its points and purposes, and I think that while a lot of its members should be Force Sensitvie I don't think all of them shoudl be. This is a galaxy after all. But I also think that their majority of work is based on the idea of hunting and bringing into justice (by death mostly) Force heritics rather than unloyal people - that is the ISBs general authority.

So yeah, I don't have issues with the Inquisiton (and I think it should be Inquisition and not latinized). Which is why I am not directly participating in that particular point.

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And I say Episode 2 because Episode 3 will be within the timeframe of the Empire already existing.

Admiral Felire wrote:I don't have a problem using it. I say we should use it. I supported that move and I continue to support it. His document is one of the best and well-written fan work out their. That said, I also don't have a problem with complaining and opening for discussion some of the things he said in that document. He is not in this project and I was not working with him when he wrote it out (much as I would have loved to been a sounding board for him writing that out, it would have been fun). But I can have some say in how we implement some of the facts that he writes up, and I will have a say. That is why I am in this project.

I will state that I am not just a fanboy. They are his works, but I invented some of the inventions (I'm cited for such) and I discussed much of it with him. I didn't make my opinions known simply because they are arbitrary. And quite frankly, he's a naval NCO. Our grasp of military science pales before his. So I'm completely comfortably typically conceding to his expertise.

Admiral Felire wrote:I get your numbers, and yeah population wise I vote huge increase in galactic numbers. And I don't have a problem with there being that many Force Sensitives or other levels of Jedi. But I don;t think that there should be billions of Jedi Knights or Masters.

I do think 10,000 is a little two small, of course, but billions. I am not so sure. Because, mostly, I think that the Jedi only accept the best of the best and that their training is hard and takes years and is quite formitable. Not something that anybody with Force potential could go thtorugh.

Millions at least. But if we drop the Jedi, I'm dropping the dark side host. I think it should be a thousandth or less of the Jedi Order at its height. Their MO is surgical strikes and subtle machinations - the dark siders, that is - and they're not numerous like the Jedi because their whole character is different.

Admiral Felire wrote:As to the lightsabers, that is both the sense that I got from reading the books and watching the movies. But its more than a sense I remember that many times its mentioned its a weapon requriing balance and response and all that that only a Force Sensitive can use readily. And I think that makes it a better weapon and why it is more traditional and forgotten about in the post-Republic Era.

I disagree. I want to bring back more archaicisms in general, to give a greater feel across the whole concept.

Admiral Felire wrote:And I say Episode 2 because Episode 3 will be within the timeframe of the Empire already existing.

I think the Empire should exist in all but name, but his acclamation as Emperor, full stop, should be a climactic and ground-changing event.

Damm responses. hehe

I think that most Jedi lead from the front. That they fight foward of their forces. I don't think that is retarted.

I also said not all Jedi, the true Jedi Generals (and maybe I was wrong, maybe Obi-Wan is one of them) lead from the back. That is totally fine and I don't have aproblem with it.

But I do think that their lightsabers, their combat training, their logistics and their senses of the universe and the powers they have to bare make more sense if they are leading and fighting in the front.

I also think that they are beyond the normal chain of command. You might disagree with me, but at least on this offical canon backs me up. I don't think we should chang eit. They are lightsaber-weilding agents of a personal nature capable of going where they will and doing what they need to do despite sheer numbers and all that.

Yeah, none of the EUs crap about "oh, my I just discoved that hiding on this rock is an ancient band of Jedi survivers. Who knew." No, No, No. Most Jedi died. They were wiped out and they did not keep secret.

Surviers are either those few that needed to survive cause they had a mission (Obi-Wan and Yoda), survived but are broken (the majority of the rest), or survived because they became Imperials.

I agree that most of the actual Jedi and Sith would be in the upper levels fo power I just think that for every Force User of great or above talent there should be like millions of basic and inferior power level. So there are alot of basic force users but only a small grouping (compared to the basic level) of higher levels .

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Like I said, if we can ignor what happens in the core movies then I don't think anything is beyond our interpretation, conversation and discussion. Even such great things as Publius' works. I'm not dismissing them, I'm not ignoring them, I am letting them on a case by case basis be open to discussion in this project.

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Millions of Jedi are fine. And really, I am not completely opposed to billions of Jedi if I can see true reasons (beyond the oft sited note of non-minimalism that so many on this board tout) for making it so high.

I just want most of them dead by the end. So if there are billions of Jedi at the height then that means almost a billion Jedi die.

I don't have a problem with the EU after Endor having them. Just that I don't think non-Force Users should have them. They are to me a highly iconic element of Jedi and Sith and should remain their.

I agree with your point about it bein a climatic event. Which is why I think it should be at end of Episode 2. Episode 3 will have the Purge, the Duel, various betrayl battles and the birth of the twins. All huge amounts of things in it all at once. To me having the ascension would take a way from those other elements.

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By the way, I came up with this:

The Clone Wars

The Clone Wars was not a singular overwhelming or interlocking war, but close to a series of almost 700 of them. These 700 conflicts were spread out over almost half a century of time and included locations as diverse as the main galaxy, the auxiliary galaxies, the space between galaxies, the Outer Rim, the Colonies and even the Core. Nobody actually knows the true event or moment in which the Clone Wars began. Untold savants, from a thousand worlds, postulate hundreds of different claims and points of beginning.

It was the final conflict of the era, started some 10 years before the Empire that would see the greatest of changes in the galaxy. This particular phase of the war began on the once peaceful world of Naboo.

(I will add more as it comes to me)

Admiral Felire wrote:I think that most Jedi lead from the front. That they fight foward of their forces. I don't think that is retarted.

I also said not all Jedi, the true Jedi Generals (and maybe I was wrong, maybe Obi-Wan is one of them) lead from the back. That is totally fine and I don't have aproblem with it.

But I do think that their lightsabers, their combat training, their logistics and their senses of the universe and the powers they have to bare make more sense if they are leading and fighting in the front.

I also think that they are beyond the normal chain of command. You might disagree with me, but at least on this offical canon backs me up. I don't think we should chang eit. They are lightsaber-weilding agents of a personal nature capable of going where they will and doing what they need to do despite sheer numbers and all that.

What's the point of this project, injecting realism, intelligent concepts, and editing out SoD-wrecking stupidities if we do it with starships and lapse right back over generals in the Clone War.

Jedi should fight organically in the armed forces. Look at Luke in the Alliance. He's a great pilot, so they put him in a squadron on important missions. He does even better, so he leads a squadron of aces for special purposes and the hardest missions. He's a great irregular combatant, so they let him go with the Solo mission to Endor's surface.

Jedi who're superb soldiers should do what our superb soldiers do, go into dangerous special forces applications. They should do infiltration, sabotage, recon, search and rescue, assasinations, renditions of the greatest risk. Or if they are good at leadership, they should command forces like any other general. If they are particularly good as predicting the future, they should work with intel in advising officers. If they are particularly good at mentalic influence, they should serve as a sophisticated command and communications mechanism for a commanding officer (C'boath to Thrawn). If they're superbly talented, maybe they can do a bunch of the same. What they shouldn't do is fight on the front line in standard maneuver warfare, where they make little difference and are too likely to be killed by heavy weaponry. They should especially not do it while also commanding troops. If they do fight directly, it shouldn't be idiotically bringing a sword to a gunfight, it should be because their direct and blunt Force abilities are godlike. If they're like Palpatine and can wreck flotillas with their thoughts, sure. If they're like Palpatine and can kill many people from afar with a thought, fine. If they're like Luke and can crush walkers with a thought, fine. But they shouldn't mix these situations and abilities and characteristics where it isn't context appropriate.

Admiral Felire wrote:Yeah, none of the EUs crap about "oh, my I just discoved that hiding on this rock is an ancient band of Jedi survivers. Who knew." No, No, No. Most Jedi died. They were wiped out and they did not keep secret.

Surviers are either those few that needed to survive cause they had a mission (Obi-Wan and Yoda), survived but are broken (the majority of the rest), or survived because they became Imperials.

Agreed.

Admiral Felire wrote:I agree that most of the actual Jedi and Sith would be in the upper levels fo power I just think that for every Force User of great or above talent there should be like millions of basic and inferior power level. So there are alot of basic force users but only a small grouping (compared to the basic level) of higher levels.

Sure, I imagine that Force-sensitives are overrepresented at the highest levels of talent in a general sense, because even being slightly Force sensitive gives them a slight edge.

Admiral Felire wrote:Like I said, if we can ignor what happens in the core movies then I don't think anything is beyond our interpretation, conversation and discussion. Even such great things as Publius' works. I'm not dismissing them, I'm not ignoring them, I am letting them on a case by case basis be open to discussion in this project.

You're not discussing them, you're just saying, "my taste is this." That's not very helpful. And furthermore, we openly stated that The New Order in Power would be in-house canon and reference, so right now its stronger than anything in our system other than the OT films themselves. We outright threw out the PT, but I'm willing to rehabilitate elements on a case-by-case basis. We are not erring on the side of preserving the PT, we're replacing it, and don't fix what's not broken, definitely. But the PT as it is exists is not in our canon.

Admiral Felire wrote: Millions of Jedi are fine. And really, I am not completely opposed to billions of Jedi if I can see true reasons (beyond the oft sited note of non-minimalism that so many on this board tout) for making it so high.

Fair enough.

Admiral Felire wrote:I just want most of them dead by the end. So if there are billions of Jedi at the height then that means almost a billion Jedi die.

Which, relative to the scale of population, is miniscule. Purging a billion Jedi is like assassinating all of the G7 leaders. Hardly what one would call a "purge" (one reason I said the purge should also be of opponents of all kinds, not just Jedi).

Admiral Felire wrote:I don't have a problem with the EU after Endor having them. Just that I don't think non-Force Users should have them. They are to me a highly iconic element of Jedi and Sith and should remain their.

Lightsabers? I disagree. I don't think the Jedi and Sith should be such lightsaber whores as it is. I think it should be a semi-ceremonial weapon. More often than not they can just use the Force.

Admiral Felire wrote:I agree with your point about it bein a climatic event. Which is why I think it should be at end of Episode 2. Episode 3 will have the Purge, the Duel, various betrayl battles and the birth of the twins. All huge amounts of things in it all at once. To me having the ascension would take a way from those other elements.

I disagree. I think having Palpatine acclaimed earlier loses effectiveness. Maybe you could have something else in Episode II like Palpatine's amending the constitution to remove his term limits and radically restructuring the Republic.

Admiral Felire wrote: The Clone Wars

The Clone Wars was not a singular overwhelming or interlocking war, but close to a series of almost 700 of them. These 700 conflicts were spread out over almost half a century of time and included locations as diverse as the main galaxy, the auxiliary galaxies, the space between galaxies, the Outer Rim, the Colonies and even the Core. Nobody actually knows the true event or moment in which the Clone Wars began. Untold savants, from a thousand worlds, postulate hundreds of different claims and points of beginning.

It was the final conflict of the era, started some 10 years before the Empire that would see the greatest of changes in the galaxy. This particular phase of the war began on the once peaceful world of Naboo.

(I will add more as it comes to me)

I disagree with the depiction, but rather than pick it apart, I'll write up a short blurb and just we can compare and contrast them.

As to the Jedi. I don't think using Luke's status makes any point of what we are trying to go for. Luke was in a time period where Jedi were practically extinct, of course he was part of the normal structure.

But in the Old Republic era the Jedi are massive, they are huge, they are powerful, they have their own fleets, supports, organization, bureacracies and establishments. Their training and efficiency makes them unique to pretty much all things.

They function as lone knights or samuari (in a broad sense) rather than officials in the military. They follow the Force, use their powers and all that.

This makes sense in light of what we see and are as relaistic as having them being beholden to the rules of law and order thaty you seem to want to make them.

Your last paragraphj in the Jedi section makes sense. I agree with a mental Jedi controlling from the back, or a special agent Jedi fighting with the special forces, but I also think that if a Jedi feels the need to back out or change things or do something else then he is legally allowed to do it. A Jedi is foremost and forever a Jedi, and then a soldier or a poltiican or whatever else they may be.

The Jedi Purge is the Jedi Purge, but I don't have a problem with the time period also encompassing other attenmpts at removing threats. But hunting down and killing a billion indivduals trained to survive in almost any environment with the Force as their ally is not an easy task. Nor should it be. Its a huculrean effort made all the more amazing because it succeeds.

I don't see any reason why we need to change the way they use lightsabers in the Star Wars universe. From the official books nad movies its a weapon used by the Jedi and Sith as their main weapon. Lets keep to that.

Palpatine modifying the term limit and adding new powers as well as restructuring it all happen over time in a very slow but sure and steady format. The only huge and amazing thing that happens is him becoming Emperor. Which if Episode 3 happens after the Empire is already formed cannot be.

Episode 2 should have the Palpatine become the Emperor. Episode 3 should be a decade into the Empire and see the Purge, the Duel and the birth of the twins.

By idea for the clone wars make sense. It has the multifaceted wars that encompass each other but overlap. Its a period of time and not a particular indivdual thing. Some wars have different purposes and meaing than others. I think it makes a lot of sense in light of our discussions.