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This thread is for discussing the NJO reboot and related material. From now on, please direct all ideas and arguments to this thread instead of the one in PSW. Thank you.

While I personally love the idea of extra-galactic invaders and organic technology I understand that a lot of people do not. So I don't have a problem with ignoring those aspects of this time frame.

Though I would enjoy it if we were able to have organic-tech using races be in the science fiction fantasy that we are creating.

But whatever we create should be epic. Should be galaxy-spanning, and should set the stage for later events.

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By the way, we could use some of the ideas presented in the origonal EU Fic project in this one. Because while the current project has decided to spread out that one seemed to focus itself on the New Jedi Order era.

The thread is called SW Fan Continuity After TUF and the link is here:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=122124

It's not the biotechnology that we take issue with, it's what that technology is capable of and the fact that the Vong use organics exclusively. There are some things you simply cannot do with complex carbohydrates. Period. End of discussion. Space travel, FTL, communications, weapons and defenses on par with (or slightly above) the major SW powers is impossible without inorganic engineering. We're grasping at straws already to make conventional SW tech work. As presented, the Yuuzhan Vong simply break SoD. They can be really heavy on (extremely advanced) biotech, but having some kind of animal to do everything is just too stupid to salvage. They can still be unscientific, fundamentalist luddites. Even the Amish consider certain tools and machinery "kosher". The Vong can still hate, for example, droids while happily annihilating hypermatter in big, unobtanium reactors. They'd never be relevant (let alone any kind of threat) otherwise.

I'll let IP rant about the whole extragalactic thing.

While having those issues ironed out and mentioned in this thread is good. I do want to mention that I have heared them before and I understand them. They don't bother me that much, because I don't care that much, but I understand that they are considered implausible and impossible and thus not fitting for our purposes.

That is fine.

I read somewhere that the organic technology of the Yuuzhan Vong use the Force as a catalyst to make them break the laws of physics, and I actually like that particular ideological point.

On the issue of the intergalactic attack, again, while its good for us in this thread to make the points, I do want to stress that I at least understand the points. And that in general I do not have a problem with them. At the same time, some of the points I could easily dismiss if I was coming up with the setting or story.

Like I said in my first post in this topic. I have NO problem with removing the extra-galactic and organic technology aspects of the enemy race. I would like for us to have the organic technology if we can, but if we cannot then no big deal.

Surely if you remove the extra-galactic aspect; it begs the question why have we never heard of them before? Especially if they're a credible threat on the galactic scale.

You can have them be extragalactic, but then they should also be pretty small. You could also have them from the Unknown Regions. Anyway, my concept would be less about the invasion and more about them being patsies to set up a repeat of Palpatine's rise to power by a leftover character from the post-ROTJ EU (I don't want to give away who it is), who is thwarted by the JJK/YJK generation and a politically matured New Republic (who doesn't shrink away from the right thing because Palpatine might have done it, they finally arrive at a self-confident synthesis between Palpatine's effective ideas and not being an asshole like him).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You can have them be extragalactic, but then they should also be pretty small. You could also have them from the Unknown Regions. Anyway, my concept would be less about the invasion and more about them being patsies to set up a repeat of Palpatine's rise to power by a leftover character from the post-ROTJ EU (I don't want to give away who it is), who is thwarted by the JJK/YJK generation and a politically matured New Republic (who doesn't shrink away from the right thing because Palpatine might have done it, they finally arrive at a self-confident synthesis between Palpatine's effective ideas and not being an asshole like him).

That's an interesting angle. Rather than having a Nom Anor-esque figure as a precursor to the invasion, one could have the Palpatinist figure and his intra-galactic affiliates attempting to destabilize the Republic from within while it has to deal with an invasion from this extra-galactic power.

As to the encroaching aliens themselves, I think a rough Vong model works fine: luddite, fanatical aliens who are somehow antithetical to the Force both ideologically and physically. I would be in favor of the aforementioned melding of biotech and conventional starship technology, and their "Force-resistance" or whatever it ends up being should be rationalized more fully, but overall, I don't think we have to change that much.

Generally speaking, the further outside of the scope of mainstream society a group is, the smaller, less civilized, and less organized they should become. The frequency of incidents and relationships between the galactic civilization and outsiders should be inversely proportional as the distance grows. The fringe should have lesser powers than the core, and their importance should be less, and the frequency of them impacting galacticopolitics should be less frequent. Powers from the Unknown Regions should be much lesser than those of the fringe, they should be less important, and much less frequently impact galacticopolitics than the fringe. Extragalactic powers should be less than those of the Unknown Regions, less important, and occur even less frequently. The relationship between on one hand size, importance, and power should also be inversely related to the frequency. The fringe having a very powerful entity interact with the galactic balance of power should be less frequent than a minor power displays its feathers. A great power from beyond the void? A freak-never occurrence.

Thinking about it having them be a Palpatine-esk revivalist movment makes sense. When they fail after years of war it could make it so that they realize that this is not their time - that just like Darth Bane the Sith need to go back into hiding. That sort of plot point could aid in setting the stage for their next action a thousand years hence.

On your second point about not wanting to give information away, if your working in this project and your making things for this project, then I think the project as a right to know the details before you post it. This is afterall a cumulative and multi-person operation.

I also must say I like the idea of there being a three-pronged force at work in this - Sith, inter-galactic, and extra-galactic. All three need to be stopped, for if any one manages to wreck enough havoc then problems will ensure.

As to the Vong being antithetical to the Force, that doesn't make sense when one uses the idea that the Force is all. I much prefer them being on a different wavelength of the Force, different but not disconnected. That difference could be a huge benefit to them until Jedi in the galaxy discover how to tap into that wavelength as well as their own. It was a nice setup in the offical NJO series that I think should be kept.

As should the organic technology. Maybe they use asteroids that they then carve with organic technology to move and then slap something like a teleketic Force-based hyperdrive-analog to allow them to propel. I do think that we should make up their inabilities by making them use the Force in unanticipated ways.

As to you last point, wouldn't you also say that the weaker it is out in the distance that they might save their strength over thousands of years before finally pushing in with all their strength. They might look like their strong, but if they don't win then they have nothing left. That coudl be the point here as well - if they loose, they don't just loose this attempt they loose forever, or near forever.

Your second point, just because something is a freak occurance doesn't mean we shouldn't use it. This is afterall both a scienfice fiction and fantasy genra, sometimes the impossible needs to become possible and direct.

Organic ships are not credible. And its hard to fight a war with no industrial base, raw materials, and settled infrastructure.

I find the organic technology of the Zerg, Tyradids and Yuzzuhan Vong to be credible and interesting. And on this I think in my mind technolgocial feasibility takes a back seat.

While I like things to make sense and work in a certain way, I am also all for letting us come up with psuedo-science explanations. That we take a core point and say that exists now lets explain it. Rather than going that doesn't make sense.

So yeah, I don't have a problem with organic technology or their existence. But at the same time I am willing to think about various other possibilities that coudl make this era an interesting thing.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Generally speaking, the further outside of the scope of mainstream society a group is, the smaller, less civilized, and less organized they should become. The frequency of incidents and relationships between the galactic civilization and outsiders should be inversely proportional as the distance grows. The fringe should have lesser powers than the core, and their importance should be less, and the frequency of them impacting galacticopolitics should be less frequent. Powers from the Unknown Regions should be much lesser than those of the fringe, they should be less important, and much less frequently impact galacticopolitics than the fringe. Extragalactic powers should be less than those of the Unknown Regions, less important, and occur even less frequently. The relationship between on one hand size, importance, and power should also be inversely related to the frequency. The fringe having a very powerful entity interact with the galactic balance of power should be less frequent than a minor power displays its feathers. A great power from beyond the void? A freak-never occurrence.

I'm not certain that I agree with you on this point. In general, taking fringe powers as being less powerful than those of the core is a good rule-of-thumb, but that does not mean that a sufficiently large coalition of worlds on the edges of the galaxy or beyond couldn't rally a force threatening to the inner galactic disk. I'm not going to argue that the opposing power in this version of the EU should be able to challenge the Republic in a straight war of attrition; even the actual EU made it clear that a fully-mobilized and motivated galaxy could never be defeated by the Yuuzhan Vong - it’s a simple matter of resources and logistics. However, this does not mean that, combined with internal factors, an extra-galactic force could not seriously threaten Republican order. I can easily imagine such a power being capable of producing an armada large and powerful enough to challenge and even defeat inner-galactic fleets, if not indefinitely.

And when I described the power as being "antithetical" to the Force, I was merely alluding to a potential bias against Force-users and some particular biological or technological means by which they are opposed to them.

Admiral Felire wrote:I find the organic technology of the Zerg, Tyradids and Yuzzuhan Vong to be credible and interesting. And on this I think in my mind technolgocial feasibility takes a back seat.

While I like things to make sense and work in a certain way, I am also all for letting us come up with psuedo-science explanations. That we take a core point and say that exists now lets explain it. Rather than going that doesn't make sense.

So yeah, I don't have a problem with organic technology or their existence. But at the same time I am willing to think about various other possibilities that coudl make this era an interesting thing.

I think that the biotechnology is only going to become remotely threatening if they use the Force to accomplish some of their tricks. Or if they have thoroughly infiltrated the New Republic's government structure with shape shifting inflitrators.

Their biotechnology most certainly should be a threat. But it shouldn't be a "superior weapons, armor and LOL reactionless drives" kind of threat. There actually are things that meat does better than metal. Just not THOSE THINGS. The doppelgangers are a good example, as are bioweapons (I mean virus bombs, not fucking snake whips).

Darth Raptor wrote:Their biotechnology most certainly should be a threat. But it shouldn't be a "superior weapons, armor and LOL reactionless drives" kind a threat. There actually are things that meat does better than metal. Just not THOSE THINGS. The doppelgangers are a good example, as are bioweapons (I mean virus bombs, not fucking snake whips).

Maybe we could take a cue from the Dark Nest trilogy, and have those aliens use cults to spread influence among the population, in addition to the dopplegangers?

They could also try things like poisoning the bacta supply (imagine the panic resulting from that).

Darth Raptor wrote:Their biotechnology most certainly should be a threat. But it shouldn't be a "superior weapons, armor and LOL reactionless drives" kind of threat. There actually are things that meat does better than metal. Just not THOSE THINGS. The doppelgangers are a good example, as are bioweapons (I mean virus bombs, not fucking snake whips).

To be fair, although portrayals in the NJO are inconsistent, particularly in the early part of the series, Yuuzhan Vong warship technology is generally shown to be inferior to that of GFFA vessels. The ease with which dovin bassal shielding is negated demonstrates the disparity especially well.

For my part, I would be in favor of a melding of technological foundations. Biotics are fine for certain weapon systems and mechanical analogues, but I would be in favor of the invaders employing variations of standard "metal" technology for warship hulls, heavy weaponry, shielding, sublight drives, and communications.

And its hard to fight a war with no industrial base, raw materials, and settled infrastructure.

Unless you have the Vong carry most of these things with them. If we bring World Ships up to be more like half the size of the DS, packed to the gills with population and infrastructure to set up an infrastructure, this might seem more like an intergalactic colonization effort, which on some level is all the war ever was.

How are you ever going to be able to carry a meaningful infrastructure and base with you relative to a goddamn galaxy? The very premise of the original NJO guaranteed nerfing the scale of the galactic civilization and retardizing the protagonists.

I've been toying with the idea that the Vong only abhor artificial conciousness, hence their destructive attitude towards droids. Their bio tech is nothing more than creative use of modified proteins and viruses to 'grow' very precise crystalline nano structures that serve to be for all intents and purposes similar in function and composition to the main galaxy's refined materials. Essentially it just makes their production method for construction materials different. Add in their willingness to basically greygoo entire systems/planets to mass produce raw materials (we have billions of rocky worlds to disassemble). From that point on they build technology essentially the same way with advanced technology except that they go the brain in a jar route rather than vibrobrain for their logic control (they would have no problem with automatons performing tasks, just no free will) This would also be coordinated through the yammosks gravity wave telepathy.

tactics like dovin basils smashing planets could be nothing more than easy ways to increase the catalyst area for their material production.

this at least explains the shapers and clears out the biowank, but it doesn't solve the out of the galaxy problem, which unless you had them seed millions of worlds with shaping proteins in the halo of the galaxy wouldn't present much of a threat by the time their core forces show up (make them breed like rabbits, use some sort of flash imprinting, hell why can't they be pervasive cloners.)

just a few ideas

Then you have nanowank. But don't get me wrong, your idea is still a lot better than what we actually got.

I love the idea of the invaders being tools of Neo-Palpatine to allow him to try and seize control of the galaxy. If I may offer a few suggestions:

The invaders should be small and unable to win any sustained war due to the differences in scale. This has been suggested already.

The invaders should open the war with a damaging Pearl Harbor-esque surprise attack on the New Republic's fleet, both because they feel they need to even the odds any way they can, and because it's dramatic, IMO.

The invaders should have collaborators of some sort within the NR itself, to also help even the odds.

At risk of offending someone by sticking my nose in, why not have the Yuuzhan Vong start out as an extragalactic threat that hits the Unknown Regions first to build up strength there?

That would also give them a chance to start infiltrating the New Republic with dopplegangers while building up their forces.

...Hell, have them as an originally extragalactic threat that has been working in the Unknown Regions for a few decades. They could have inserted agents into the Old Republic and Empire to help destabilize the OR then cause the Empire to collapse even more thoroughly upon Palpatine's demise, because as Nom Anor admitted, the Empire would have smashed the Vong without hesitation as soon as they showed up.

I'm not saying they should be a major power or "zomg deep-seated conspiracy!", just involved in giving circumstances a little nudge here or there to make things a bit worse than they would have been otherwise in the hopes of causing as much confusion and chaos as possible. Then, after fifty years or so of a massive shipbuilding and expansion campaign in the Unknown Regions, they decide the New Republic is sufficiently disorganized and stupid for it to be a good time to come out of hiding in force.

Noble Ire

I agree with you. While in general the less resource-rich Outer Rim territories would not be a threat. Given enough time to build up, make allies and prepare would allow them to do a lightning strike. They just wouldn't be able to hold out for long and would need to win quick.

Pelranius and Darth Raptor

If that is true, then why not just make it so that it uses the Force to enhance it to greater levels of leathilty. I'm not saying making it stronger than the Galactic level of technology but at least equal or slightly inferior but different enough to provide strengths should work.

I like the idea of external, internal galactic and internal Sith as being the point of this major threat. I think it works and would make it so that the Sith, when they loose, go on hiatius for a thosuand years.

I also think that we need to remember that the Force seems to be able to interact with biology and shift and transform it - the Cave on Dagoba, and the world of Byss are great examples. The Sith did it alot when they transformed and mutated creatures. We could use that potential and make it so that the Yuuzhan Vong utilize that particular aspect of the Force though they don't realize it.

Noble Ire

But then you remove some of the horror factors that made the Yuuzhan Vong so different. Why couldn't we just figure out a magical (i.e. Force-based) reason that works for a lot of people and then move on. Why would they need to have hybrid systems.

Vehrec

I actually don't have a problem with them being an intergalactic colonization effort. Afterall the Star Wars galaxy tried with the Outbound Flight Project, though it failed. What if another galaxy so far out there tried it themselves, but they did not fail, they successfully launched their huge fleet of 500 - 900 km planetoids into the universal void. It might be able to work.

Illuminatus Primus

If you have 100 ships each 900 km in diameter then you have a pretty good start in terms of internal infrastructure. If what you need comes from farms mostly then you have the necessary support to grow. And if your advanced technological capability comes from using the Force in ways that you don't realize your using then your capable of doing things that are fantastical and yet also fit within the metaphysics of the Star Wars Setting.

I mean, despite a person's wish for realism the Force exists and thus the fantastical and magical exists. Because of that why couldn't we use it to our advantage and make a threat that uses that particular aspect to our benefit.

evillejedi

Your 'nanowank' added to the Force ideology could give us entirely what we need without making it sound rediculous.

Coiler

I agree with you, having an internal Sith or Neo-Palpatine esc aspect to the invasion plot makes it an interesting unifcation of various things. It also makes it different.

I also agree that the war needs to be fast and quick and not prologuned and sustained. If they allowed the galaxy at large to fully ramp up industrial production to wartime levels then the invaders are screwed.

I also like the idea of collaborators and secret alliances and all that.

Jaevric

I kinda like the general idea you have going there. If the fleet of 100 gigantic worldships (on the scale of 900kms, or around there) appear in the fringe of the known galactic cluster they would then begin using their time to build up both local infrastructure and poltical knoweldge and support.

One plan would have them secretly work with a bunch of worlds and races in the Outer Rim. They would try to have them build up a coalition that would in the future create a galactic threat they could piggy back.

They would have other missions work to destablize both the Galactic Republic, then Empire and then the New Republic. They would do this hiddenly and without much fanfare.

At some point they would come to the attention of the surviving Sith, who would ally with the aliens, use the aliens and prepare the aliens for galactic war or whatever.

Then when all the pieces are in play the aliens get their patsies (incluidng those Republic insiders who sold their state out) to attack. And so the New Republic has a multi-pronged war against multiple fronts that they did not expect.

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And honestly I just want to say that all ideas are welcome. Not all will be supported (lord knows I have had a number of my ideas shot down in thsi project) but all should be stated if your think it.

This is not a one man project ruled over by a dictator, its a collaborative project in which right now all are equally able to present their views and opinions for discussion and hearing by the masses. And then, once ideas get presented others chime in in what is an informal vote of acceptance.

Admiral Felire wrote:But then you remove some of the horror factors that made the Yuuzhan Vong so different. Why couldn't we just figure out a magical (i.e. Force-based) reason that works for a lot of people and then move on. Why would they need to have hybrid systems.

In my opinion, one cannot have a military power capable of contesting the New Republic if said power only uses biological technology. It simply taxes suspension of disbelief too much, something that this project, if I'm not mistaken, was intended to minimize. I see no reason why a Vong-esque power cannot be "horrific and different" and still use conventional starship shielding and weaponry. Fill their hulls with exotic, perilous jungles. Have them erect massive, sacrifical pyres on conquered worlds. Stock their ground armies with all manner of terrifying and bizarre monstrosities. Give them virus weapons with which they can liquefy entire species.

I simply ask that you give them the dignity of a turbolaser or two.

Your right, this project was intended to try and establish a believable and non minimalist version of the Star Wars universe. And your points are well made, don't doubt that.

See, I guess a problem for me in this aspect is that it doesn't stretch susespension of disbelief. I am completely and totally fine with organic technology being equal or superior to normal ones if certain things exist, one would be a magical or other such pheonomea backing the basic biological substrate.

But I realize that I am, while not alone, in a minority when it comes to that at least on this site. Which is why I am trying to figure out a way to balance the intense fun that having an organic tech race does with believability.

And your points about interiors work to help it.

How would this work in some cases - make the starships of the Vong be asteroids and other such things hallowed out in the interior. From that they are fitted with various organic tech creatures to provide various infrastructure. The outer hull is no longer organic but its also not metal - which is something I want to refrain from.

About your second point, I was wondering the fact that if the are from outside the galaxy wouldn't they not have turbolasers. Wouldn't they have other types of weapons.

But, that question aside, yeah, I do get what your saying. And I am trying to figure out how to unite the disparate elements that I have - the use of organic tech without metal, vs. the use of technology that is logical and consistent.