Character Development Question: Which path to go with?

[Majin Gojira]

I'm developing (which is honestly, almost all that I do) a series concept that...takes into account the last several hundred years of fantasy fiction as having some grain of truth to it. As such, there's a lot of background stuff. One of the concepts is that, similar to Negima, the school the main characters belong to has approximately 30-40 paranormal beings/humans with paranormal ability.

Sidenote: One of the main characters absolutly hates the word "Paranormal" on principle (as since Magic is part of the world, it's perfectly normal).

So, in the process of creating 30-40 paranormal concepts for this class and avoiding cliche's that are two overwrought (except for a character tenativly labeled "Nina the Ninja" whose life is so stereotypical, that other characters tease her about it), there were three concepts that were just too similar and that, honestly -- one or more needs to be cut in favor of the other, so I turn to the internets for help.

Concept 1) Maud and the Wyvern - Drawn from an English legend of a little girl and a powerful dragon she befriends/raises as a pet. The Dragon is actually bonded to her very soul. Basically, the parent dragon bonded the two so as to protect the Wyvern in its infancy/young adult hood as such bonding allows the Dragon to hide in plain sight. Their relationship is sort of like that of the Venom Symbiot without the negative soul-eating going on. They share a lot, but are different beings in the end. They live to protect the other and they go about doing so in ways only a little girl and a dragon can--so you can guess what problems this can cause. The lead character has something similar going (though his is more lycanthropy-related) on with him, so this concept may work as a parallel or detract from the main dilemas.

Concept 2) Saurian Pet - A kid raising a Dinosaur is quite a dream to some, but I intend to subvert it a lot by bringing up the problems in trying to raise a dangerous wild animal on your own and without training. The Dinosaur in question is an escapee of ilegal pet smuggling from Maple White Land (or expy theiroff) and, of course, is a therapod. Since there's a masquarade in effect (based mostly on People Being Stupid), the kid who finds it thinks he has no one else to turn to and tries to raise it on his own. Disaster and hilarity follow. I like the concept, but it's to much of a "One and Done" deal.

Concept 3) Ghost Dryptosaurus - Why don't animals leave ghosts in fiction more often? Here, a Dinosaur died protecting her ages (a Dryptosaur--a small, east-cosat Tyrannosaur) died gaurding her eggs and no ones ever bothered to try and exorsize her. As such, she's STILL gaurding her fossilized eggs--and is ungodly powerful (as, with most supernaturals, the older they get--the more powerful they become). And by Ungodly powerful, I mean "Can possibly level a Pantheon". All she cares about is the nest and protecting it. She is a fun recurring adversary and can be used as a "Solution" to another adversary. But, really, the series can only afford one Therapod.

If more information is needed I will provide it but I want to remain as vague as possible to protect certain concepts.

So, which should be used? Which should be cut? Which are just fucking stupid?

[Hawkwings]

I like 1 and 3, and thus am in favor of cutting 2.

in 1, do you mean that the dragon can shapeshift? or become invisible? or just not be noticed by people? Also, what is the setting of this piece?

[von Neufeld]

I like 1 best. 3 has also potential, but you might have to tone it down in power, to avoid power-creep.

[Majin Gojira]

in 1, do you mean that the dragon can shapeshift? or become invisible? or just not be noticed by people? Also, what is the setting of this piece?

I'm alternating between two options:
1) The dragon becomes Etheric and basically enters the body of the Host, sort of like posession, but with the dragon only being able to communicate with the host, not control it.
2) It can do a minor shapeshifting into that of a small bird.

The setting for this is, currently, Modern New Jersey.

[Khaat]

I would rather see "Maud and the Wyvern". (Dragons) are fantasy-staple, and since there are no real draconologists with reams of research to prove you wrong, you can make the dragon capable of anything needed for your story. This market has been tapped pretty hard, though (avoid Golden Compass parallels, Pernisms, etc. I figure you are aware of this.) An ending would be dark (they are soul-bonded), but this can run longer. With a broader target audience.

I don't much like "Saurian Pet" or "Ghost Dryptosaurus", and for the same reason: we do know a little about dinosaurs. Unless you're prepared to do a great deal of research on predator behavior and make some leaps to the special circumstances created (what exactly does a predatory dinosaur's ghost do, anyway? How would something this powerful have impacted history/gone unnoticed all this time?). 2) and 3) have clear, clean resolutions, but you are right: one-shot or periphery stories.

(I wouldn't consider any of these ideas stupid.)

[Majin Gojira]

I would rather see "Maud and the Wyvern". (Dragons) are fantasy-staple, and since there are no real draconologists with reams of research to prove you wrong, you can make the dragon capable of anything needed for your story. This market has been tapped pretty hard, though (avoid Golden Compass parallels, Pernisms, etc. I figure you are aware of this.) An ending would be dark (they are soul-bonded), but this can run longer. With a broader target audience.

I have not read either The Golden Compass or Pern so I would not know if I was aping them. The way I picture it currently is that the Dragon is basically tied into the "reptilian brain" of the host. It won't get jealous of any friends she makes aside from itself (as my only exposure to Pern has suggested), but take them as its own, but in a more primitive and unsubtle fasion.

I don't much like "Saurian Pet" or "Ghost Dryptosaurus", and for the same reason: we do know a little about dinosaurs. Unless you're prepared to do a great deal of research on predator behavior and make some leaps to the special circumstances created (what exactly does a predatory dinosaur's ghost do, anyway? How would something this powerful have impacted history/gone unnoticed all this time?). 2) and 3) have clear, clean resolutions, but you are right: one-shot or periphery stories.

Let me put it this way: I've read Robert Bakker's The Dinosaur Heresies and Raptor Red to the point where the spines of both have broken.

As for what a predatory ghost dinosaur would do? Think of a mother crocodile with the legs of an emu and intelligence of a house cat gauding a nest. In other words: she gaurds an area deep in the pine barrens and frightens/kills off those who stray to close to the nest.

[Khaat]

I have not read either The Golden Compass or Pern so I would not know if I was aping them. The way I picture it currently is that the Dragon is basically tied into the "reptilian brain" of the host. It won't get jealous of any friends she makes aside from itself (as my only exposure to Pern has suggested), but take them as its own, but in a more primitive and unsubtle fasion.

My concerns with Golden Compass are the "our souls walk beside us as animals", while my Pern-ism concerns are "telepathic life-mate happens to be a dragon". Separate issues, just thought I'd bring them up for your consideration.

I don't much like "Saurian Pet" or "Ghost Dryptosaurus", and for the same reason: we do know a little about dinosaurs. Unless you're prepared to do a great deal of research on predator behavior and make some leaps to the special circumstances created (what exactly does a predatory dinosaur's ghost do, anyway? How would something this powerful have impacted history/gone unnoticed all this time?). 2) and 3) have clear, clean resolutions, but you are right: one-shot or periphery stories.

Let me put it this way: I've read Robert Bakker's The Dinosaur Heresies and Raptor Red to the point where the spines of both have broken.

As for what a predatory ghost dinosaur would do? Think of a mother crocodile with the legs of an emu and intelligence of a house cat gauding a nest. In other words: she gaurds an area deep in the pine barrens and frightens/kills off those who stray to close to the nest.

Good to hear on the dino/predator info.

Saurian Pet seems kinda... "eh". "Dangerous Pet" may not have been done with a theropod before, but it has been done (wolves, bears, etc). I'd still be interested with what you can do with it.

I see the long-term impact of this "haunted wood" would be serious, unless limited. Historical, even. (Why would a Roman Catholic exorcism be any more effective than a pagan shaman's exorcism? If this mother became a ghost with great power in the material world, why haven't so many others before and since? Do you have answers for the "ghost" aspects?*) I think it would work as a great ghost story, but only as a periphery to the root story that encounters these woods. Maybe she only rouses for protection of the unborn or something: A battered pregnant woman being chased by her abusive husband runs into the woods, the husband (and his truck) are never seen again. "The truck's tracks just end here, sheriff. With all this mud there's no way he drove out of here."

*unrelated to your topic: I have issues with some "ghost stories" where the ghosts were created by violent ends, so they go around killing folks, creating new violent ends, which should mean more ghosts!

[speaker-to-trolls]

I like the idea of an absurdly powerful dinosaur ghost, but the fact that it is just an animal might make it hard to play as an effective adversary. If it has the intelligence of a cat, as you put it, then I don't think its mind would be up to the task of forming vendettas, it'd have to be more a case of the main characters acting as damage control when it wanders into some village and starts eating peoples souls. I still like this best of the two therapod ideas, though.
EDIT:Incidentally there's no reason the dinosaur ghost couldn't be nudged out of its haunting place somehow by someone who wants to take advantage of the chaos such a thing would cause. Majin Gojira is, I assume, writing this story in an original setting, so he can make up the rules of the supernatural as he sees fit.

The Jane and the dragon one could work as well, obviously, you just have to be careful how you play it because it can seem like a Pern ripoff even if it isn't, just because I gather that series is pretty iconic.

As a sidenote: When you said the girl and the dragon were 'different beings in the end' I got an impression of their story arc ending with them separating and the dragon refusing to come back and help her, because that's not what dragons do. How's that for a downer ending?

[RedImperator]

Quick, mostly unrelated question: is this ghost therapod the truth behind the Jersey Devil legend in your story, or does she share the Barrens with the Devil?

[Majin Gojira]

My concerns with Golden Compass are the "our souls walk beside us as animals", while my Pern-ism concerns are "telepathic life-mate happens to be a dragon". Separate issues, just thought I'd bring them up for your consideration.

Wow. Yeah, the dragon is NOT the girl's soul nor is it her life mate. It's her best friend/daughter. Imagine Lassie, only bound to your body for his own protection--and large, scaley and fire breathing.

I see the long-term impact of this "haunted wood" would be serious, unless limited. Historical, even. (Why would a Roman Catholic exorcism be any more effective than a pagan shaman's exorcism? If this mother became a ghost with great power in the material world, why haven't so many others before and since? Do you have answers for the "ghost" aspects?*)

To say "it's complicated" is an understatement. Short version: She became a ghost when it died in a mudslide along with her eggs. Her eggs fossilized, creating a permanent link to the world. Then, Plate Tectonics and Geology happened, burrying her for a long time before erosion brought her back to the surface and thus woke her--well, as much as normal ghosts are awake. They only strike when disturbed in some way or reminded of something in their past.

I think it would work as a great ghost story, but only as a periphery to the root story that encounters these woods. Maybe she only rouses for protection of the unborn or something: A battered pregnant woman being chased by her abusive husband runs into the woods, the husband (and his truck) are never seen again. "The truck's tracks just end here, sheriff. With all this mud there's no way he drove out of here."

Two Words: Fossilization Curse. It doesn't turn YOU to stone. It just does that to your bones!

*unrelated to your topic: I have issues with some "ghost stories" where the ghosts were created by violent ends, so they go around killing folks, creating new violent ends, which should mean more ghosts!

It's not so much violent ends, but strong attatchment or emotion (or both, in her case) that creates a ghost. There's other things (Emotional Echoes) that can be created by intense reations, but violence is not the only way to do it. Being burried alive and the like form ghosts just as well--depending on etheric/magic saturation available in the area.

I like the idea of an absurdly powerful dinosaur ghost, but the fact that it is just an animal might make it hard to play as an effective adversary. If it has the intelligence of a cat, as you put it, then I don't think its mind would be up to the task of forming vendettas, it'd have to be more a case of the main characters acting as damage control when it wanders into some village and starts eating peoples souls. I still like this best of the two therapod ideas, though.

She doesn't need to be too intelligent. Her general purpose is to hand out Darwin Awards to other characters who mess with her eggs.

As a sidenote: When you said the girl and the dragon were 'different beings in the end' I got an impression of their story arc ending with them separating and the dragon refusing to come back and help her, because that's not what dragons do. How's that for a downer ending?

The original fable had a downer ending too: Dragon grows up and finds out "Hey! People Taste Good!" and goes on a rampage, attacking every human it comes across except for the girl who raised him. A knight errant appears and slays the dragon (as they are want to do), but the girl watches it. She then runs up to the knight and starts hitting him for killing her only friend.

is this ghost therapod the truth behind the Jersey Devil legend in your story, or does she share the Barrens with the Devil

No. She is not.

Furthermore, most anything weird seen in the barrens from Bigfoot to Phantom panthers gets labeled "Jersey Devil".

The proper name for the true "Jersey Devil" in this 'verse is "Leed's Devil". They are not native to North America, but were imported by accident from Europe like many of the supernaturals encontered (Yes: Supernatural Invasive Species). They are a variety of winged humanoid-hexapodal mutations related to Harpies, Tengu and other beings I don't feel like scouring my notes to find.

[Styphon]

I'd have to throw my support behind option 3, simply because I can't say I've ever heard of anything quite like it which gives it MASSIVE points for originality. 1 could be fun too, but it's got more precedent. That's the way I see it anyway.

A few questions...
As far as the supernaturals get more powerful with age thing, would that extend all the way back to the Mesozoic in this case or just to whenever Geology happened and she was awakened?
How widely is the "age = power" principle applied? Since you've already mentioned pantheons, would it extend to gods, making the oldest pantheons the most powerful, or would godly power be based on number/devoutness of worshippers (or... third option I've not thought of, like a combination of the two)? I've got mental images of the tribal gods of the Paleolithic kicking ass and taking names... or the gods of the troodon as a Lovecraftian pastiche (beyond ancient, incomprehensible to the human mind, and unbelievably powerful)!

Times like this I wish I had some faith in my own writing ability, cause I'm getting all kinds of ideas off your idea.

[Majin Gojira]

A few questions...
As far as the supernaturals get more powerful with age thing, would that extend all the way back to the Mesozoic in this case or just to whenever Geology happened and she was awakened?

The Supernatural is as old as the universe since it is a part of it (a rather fundemental part too). However, most extant supernaturals are only recently developed/evolved/created. Most have Supernaturals species older than 7 million years are extinct and have disipated into the stuff that made them up to begin with.

The Dryptosaurs fossilization-link and burrial helped it survive. Much like normal fossilization, the likelyhood of a being becoming a Supernatural is pretty low, and the likelyhood of a fossilized being having a supernatural link is even lower.

How widely is the "age = power" principle applied?

It's an ambient principle/constant. The longer things are exposed, the more magic they can absorb, but they also slowly radiate that magic as well, so most of the time it's of no real consequence unless:
A) the supernatural is in a place where Magic can enter but not escape easily
B) They are exposed to more magic than they radiate normally.

They can also work their magic like a group of muscles to get stronger. In some cases, their magic IS composed of muscles because it takes actual biology to work the stuff.

Since you've already mentioned pantheons, would it extend to gods, making the oldest pantheons the most powerful, or would godly power be based on number/devoutness of worshippers (or... third option I've not thought of, like a combination of the two)?

The history of religion sort-of reflects the history of the gods themselves. IE: the pantheons of ancient cultures are likely composed of dead beings. Some may still exist in dorman/sealed states, but few of them hold any sway anyore.

Also, Gods aren't that powerful in this 'verse and a Nuke to the face would kill one outright (infact, the Hindu Pantheon survived in part because it was the first Nuclear Power. They call the weapons Brahmastra or Shivastra depending on its other magical effects).

In other words, the gods are pretty much as strong as they are portayed in their cultures, but mitigated by what we know of science today (IE: none of them created the universe, and any effect said to cover "The World" actually covers only their sphere of influence).

Worshiper numbers normally do not effect the overall power of a diety--unless they do something rather horrible to said worshipers.

I'd say more, but a specific plot point revolves around this concept.

I've got mental images of the tribal gods of the Paleolithic kicking ass and taking names... or the gods of the troodon as a Lovecraftian pastiche (beyond ancient, incomprehensible to the human mind, and unbelievably powerful)!

Troodon were smart for the time, but not THAT smart .

[Garlak]

Hmm... what about gods of the Neanderthals and Cromagnon? Or some of the gods of African natives--some of those people have... lived there pretty much forever. Which likely means that their gods had a link, of sorts...

Hmm... Is their a "masquerade" in effect? Because honestly, whenever somebody makes a fantasy story set in the modern world... since it's so difficult to come up with and explain all the different beasties and how they would have changed history... They usually opt out with a "magic is hidden" theme. Which tends to grate on my nerves. Maybe, maybe!, magic could have been kept hidden till the 17th or 18th century... but when we get to the 20th century, our technology and simple population makes it unlikely that magic could escape detection. It only takes *one* screw up. So perhaps a theme would be that since magic can be more easily found out, they just... never reveal themselves. At best, meet up somewhere where there is noooo way for people to track them... but even so, people could notice people leaving or disappearing, and appearing elsewhere...
Hrm..
Dreams. In dreams, you can't run into other people, and there's no risk of technology screwing you up; and it would be so EASY to deny anything strange that was in dreams! Heh. Maybe there's a Dreamscape or something...

Although, I'm curious... what kind of societies and cultures are more receptive to the "super"natural?


Also... is the "super"natural stuff going to be... explainable? Or is the afore-mentioned character going to be irritated that people call magic "super"natural because they can't explain it--because, damn it, it's weird freaky shit and you really don't have a leg to stand on if you're going to complain about people calling it supernatural! Not everyone can do it. It might not be so testable... It's weird.

[Majin Gojira]

Hmm... what about gods of the Neanderthals and Cromagnon? Or some of the gods of African natives--some of those people have... lived there pretty much forever. Which likely means that their gods had a link, of sorts...

I generally work from existing mythology when I can. So...I'd have to double check their known religious practices before saying much more.

Hmm... Is their a "masquerade" in effect? Because honestly, whenever somebody makes a fantasy story set in the modern world... since it's so difficult to come up with and explain all the different beasties and how they would have changed history... They usually opt out with a "magic is hidden" theme. Which tends to grate on my nerves. Maybe, maybe!, magic could have been kept hidden till the 17th or 18th century... but when we get to the 20th century, our technology and simple population makes it unlikely that magic could escape detection. It only takes *one* screw up. So perhaps a theme would be that since magic can be more easily found out, they just... never reveal themselves. At best, meet up somewhere where there is noooo way for people to track them... but even so, people could notice people leaving or disappearing, and appearing elsewhere...

I know, and I find it grating as well--however, I'm employing a twisted version of it.

There is a masquarade, but it was broken decades ago and even then, it was only tenativly held onto for the sake of civility for a good 50 years.

Furthermore, there's several mitigating factors that have kept things quasi-normal.
1) People are stupid. The supernatural was exposed and some people still don't really believe in it.
2) There are a lot of fakers who go unnoticed, and they discredit the entire subject in the public's mind.
3) The people who do believe in the Supernatural are tained by said fakers and thus tend to have things ASS BACKWARDS.
4) The people who do know the truth, or part of the truth are mired in tradition to the point of perpetuating stupidity.
5) Even with those that accept the supernatural reveal, some people just don't care. It's like--take the announcement of the discovery of Darkmatter. People won't really care until something is produced by it that the public can use.
6) Because very little useful developments have arrisen from magic, little research has been put into it (which is where the characters come in).

Although, I'm curious... what kind of societies and cultures are more receptive to the "super"natural?

Quite a few groups latch onto anything that may validate their beliefs.

Also... is the "super"natural stuff going to be... explainable? Or is the afore-mentioned character going to be irritated that people call magic "super"natural because they can't explain it--because, damn it, it's weird freaky shit and you really don't have a leg to stand on if you're going to complain about people calling it supernatural! Not everyone can do it. It might not be so testable... It's weird.

Actually, it's fully testable and explainable...part of the time.

It's just that the person who understands it is attempting to do so to High School Students. One only has a basic understanding of the physics involved; one's a damn dirty hippie with lots of preconcieved notions regarding the stuff; and the third member of the party's a Pro Wrestler.

So she dumbs it down sorta like the History Channel's "The Universe" explains various cosmic concepts.

Sometimes she gets stumped or yells back something along the lines of "This is the first time we've seen this phenomena and you expect me to have an explination for it 5 seconds AFTER I SEE IT!?"

In other words, I'm going to dance around it SO much.

[Styphon]

Troodon were smart for the time, but not THAT smart .

Yeah, that's just a brain-bug of mine due to some documentary I watched as a kid with the whole dinosauroid nonsense in it.

Really wish I could remember the name of it for nostalgia reasons... it had two hosts, one of which was named Gary (I think)... and one of them got turned into a t-rex at the end somehow... or something.

Edit: Oh yeah, Google. *foreheadslap*