Brother Stormhammer wrote:Your Steel Vultures don't *exactly* go against the established Warhammer 40K background, but they push the limits in at least two ways:
1) They're very much a non-codex chapter. This, in itself, isn't necessarily bad, and certainly isn't without precedent in the universe (the Black Templars, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels all deviate in significant ways from the Codex Astartes, and all are not only accepted parts of the 40K universe, but have extensive followings among the player base). That said, non-Codex chapters tend to be looked at with some disfavor by the High Lords of Terra.
Also, note that two of those non-Codex chapters are
founding Chapters, with fifteen millenia of institutional tradition at their back. The third, the Black Templars, dates back all the way to the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, and no one sane doubts their loyalty. Indeed, most of the censure they're likely to face will be for
excessive zeal. In the
Imperium of Man...
In all those cases, we're looking at confident chapters whose formation was almost entirely an internal Space Marine matter, one that the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Inquisition had no influence over. A more recent chapter would not be able to get away with quite so much independence.
2) They're under the control of an organization outside the Adeptus Astartes. There is (as far as I can remember) only one chapter out of a thousand that's run that way...the Grey Knights, who are seconded to the Inquisition for the specific purpose of fighting Daemons. I suppose that counts as a precedent for the Steel Vultures service with the Mechanicus, but it would be a very unusual arrangement to say the least, particularly when the Mechanicus already have a standing army of their own...they have the Tech Guard and the Titan Legions.
Yes. On the other hand, if they are, say, an offshoot chapter of the Iron Hands, their close relationship with the Adeptus Mechanicus would be very reasonable. Though they would probably keep up a prickly insistence on their own
nominal independence, even if they spent most of their time doing exactly what the tech-priests would want them to be doing.
Beyond the problems with the background, as a player, I have huge problems with your Steel Vultures. They seem to have a bad case of "Better than everybody" syndrome. Their guns have longer range, do more damage, and generally outclass every other comparable bit of kit in the game, their 'special gear' includes stat bonuses that make individual line troopers the equal of legendary Space Marine heroes.
Seconded. I'm not a very experienced player, but I saw the problem just from the stats.
In my opinion, you need to throttle back on the special rules, particularly those that give significant advantages to your list, and come up with some limitations to balance out the advantages you keep.
Hmm. Make them bad at close combat? That's very rare among Space Marines (practically a Heresy in its own right), but their background suggests that these should be very shooty Marines indeed.
I propose the following:
-Keep a close relationship between the Steel Vultures and the Mechanicus.
-Because of this relationship, the Vultures tend to get some of the best equipment: not outright made-up stuff that beats everything else in the game, but still good stuff.
-Most of this stuff is
old, not new stuff that "promises to replace" existing technology; the reason you don't normally see it is because there are so few places that can make it. Compare to the Leman Russ Vanquisher or Executioner variants. Those tanks have great firepower, but there are only one (or zero) forge worlds in the galaxy that can make the guns, so they're more expensive than the norm.
-All this firepower comes at a price: because they have improved access to the Imperium's top-level firepower, and because they emphasize technological superiority over the warrior ethos, their close combat skills have atrophied.
-Thus, the Steel Vultures are like Tau to the Codex Marines' Imperial Guard. When it comes down to hand to hand, compared to a standard Codex chapter like the Ultramarines they're noticeably sub-par; compared to a CC-oriented chapter like the Blood Angels they're a bunch of clowns.
So you get a "shooty" Marine army, one that fights more like a modern special forces unit and less like the classic 40k "Drive closer, I want to hit them with my sword!" army. That will hurt them on the tabletop, but it's very consistent with the overall aesthetic you're trying to achieve.
Ryan Thunder wrote:Yeah, quite. I made up a chapter once, but about the only deviation that seemed reasonable was a Javelin-style missile launcher for killing tanks and a non-standard company organization where the individual Marines are treated like entire squads on their own (because they've always been portrayed as simply that badass.)
How is the Javelin-style missile launcher different from a normal launcher firing krak missiles?
____________
Also, a long, point by point commentary on Sidewinder's ideas, from the point of view of a military technology buff who knows a bit about 40k and has WAY too much time on his hands:
Sidewinder wrote:AVENGER ASSAULT CANNON: Range 30", Strength 6, AP 4. Heavy 4, Rending (type)
This assault cannon has extended barrels to improve range.
Why? Marine assault cannon are designed to fight enemy infantry hordes, and they're already as long ranged as most non-heavy weapon infantry in the game. That's good enough. Light infantry who try to stand and shoot it out against assault cannon-armed Marines are likely to have a hard time of it as it is; the extra range advantage is unnecessary.
DESIGNATED MARKSMAN BOLTER: Range 36", Strength 5, AP 4. Heavy 2, Sniper (type)
This weapon is chambered for heavy bolter rounds. The weapon is issued only to those with Ballistic Skill 5 or above-- assume all designated marksmen have met this requirement.
Bolter rounds are essentially rocket propelled grenades; they're really not a good choice for sniper rifles. Also, sniper rifles should not have a rate of fire comparable to that of the standard bolter or autocannon, for fairly obvious reasons.
GEMINI PATTERN (TWIN-LINKED) PLASMA CANNON: Range 36", Strength 7, AP 2. Heavy 2, Blast (type)
This weapon, resembling a twin-barrel plasma cannon, is vehicle-mounted only; its weight taxes even a space marine's superhuman strength.
By the way, there's a problematic pattern in your weapons. They're
all slightly overcharged versions of an existing weapon, and they're
all really heavy. Maybe you should make your Steel Vultures a slow, plodding gunline army to emphasize this: cut back on the Fast Attack elements and emphasize firepower, while downgrading their close combat performance.
MELTA JAVELIN: Range 18", Strength 8, AP 1. Assault 1, Melta (type)
This meltagun has an enlarged combustion chamber to improve range.
Some believe it will replace plasma weapons, despite a length that can match a space marine's height.
See, this is what I'm talking about. This thing is supposed to be extremely large and heavy, but your guys are carrying it anyway... and it eliminates the main flaw of the melta weapon that
all man-portable meltaguns share: short range. By increasing the range 50%, you make it MUCH more effective and easier to use without having to charge the tank you want to knock out. Which correspondingly unbalances it unless the point cost is greatly increased to match. In tabletop play, I suspect that people would complain; the meltagun is a good weapon and making it longer ranged will really screw with people.
MISSILE BARRAGE (FRAG): Range 12-48", Strength 4, AP 6. Heavy 1, Blast, Barrage (type)
MISSILE BARRAGE (KRAK): Range 12-48", Strength 8, AP 3. Heavy 1, Barrage (type)
Any missile may be launched in a ballistic arc, like mortar shells; note barrages have a minimum range. A Steel Vulture will not require line-of-sight to launch a missile against a designated target. The player must declare he is using this ability, and identify the designating unit, before launching a missile.
Here, again, we have a problem: this makes every missile launcher in your army double as an Imperial Guard-style mortar (the krak barrage will be nearly useless because it will scatter off the target so often and accomplish nothing). Imperial Guard mortars are worth... what, ten or fifteen points each? And that's given that they're put on a much less survivable platform than a Marine, with lower accuracy (BS 3). The synergy between (in effect) giving your Marines two different heavy weapons in one package will overpower them much more than the point cost of the two weapons might lead you to believe, too.
It's not that this isn't a useful (or, hell, logical) ability; shoulder fired missiles that can be used this way already exist in real life or will soon. But for gameplay it's going to be overpowered unless the point cost is jacked up, and at that point you're basically writing a new Codex... which is Games Workshop's prerogative.
TURBO-MELTA: Range 30", Strength 8, AP 1. Assault 1, Melta (type)
This is a multi-melta with an enlarged combustion chamber to improve range. Devastators favor the weapon over the multi-melta, despite (or because of) a weight that can make a space marine scout's knees buckle.
This is even worse than the upgrated conventional melta, because it's
an assault weapon with a range of 30". To me, that is, again, a problem. It outranges some of the game's
heavy weapons, will be fired with BS 4 or above, and can be fired on the move. That has tremendous potential to be exploited, especially against, say, Orks. This thing could cut Ork meganobs to ribbons, because it outranges most of their effective weapons and the meganobs won't be able to close with the Devastators who are firing them. Likewise against slow-moving armored vehicles that rely heavily on their secondary armament for anti-personnel work... although those are at reduced effect against Space Marines anyway, because the secondary weapons are usually short ranged, and the Marines are good shots,
and the Marines' armor save is good enough to resist most antipersonnel weapons fire.
SERVO-GUN/SERVO-TURRET
...A Vulture may take the device to free both hands for close combat weapons, such as a shield and shock blade.
Again, this is not good. As I understand it, characters armed with two melee weapons are normally barred from ranged fire
for a reason: it acts as a counterbalance, because it means they can't shoot and then charge and lay into the enemy with their (upgraded) melee attack. To get ranged power they must settle for suboptimal close combat abilities, even for high-point cost elite units. Here, you're giving your Vultures a way to get both. Not good.
SHOCK BLADE
This two-handed sword is a power weapon whose energy field extends with each hit, granting an extra long-range attack. Hits made with the blade are resolved at Strength 6. Hits made with the energy field (measured with a Template, like a flamer) are resolved at Strength 3, allowing the user to hit several opponents with a single blow.
If you have trouble imagining what I have in mind, watch 'Ninja Scroll: The Series' or other example of Asian pulp. Note how the wanked swordsman can project ki or qi, using a sword as a long-range weapon.
These treasured weapons are gifted to the chapter's greatest heroes, usually an expeditionary force leader and his Talon Guard.
Now, see the problem here? First of all, you're explicitly comparing this weapon to something which you come out and call "wanked." This should suggest to your mind that the weapon itself is "wanked."
Second of all, this doesn't seem to work well with the normal mechanics of the game. A powerful melee weapon with a built-in flamer (or mini-flamer with reduced power) might be reasonable. But a weapon whose every hit in close combat (and remember that heroic Marines may get several hits in one turn) produces a template attack on everything in the vicinity will be a pain to resolve on the tabletop, and will be extremely powerful because of the multiple template attacks.
Perhaps you could make this equivalent to the Ork burna, which can be used as
either a flamer
or a power weapon, but not both in the same turn.
Also, I advise that the Strength of the weapon should be tuned down, pursuant to the general goal of making this army weaker than Codex Marines in hand to hand. Maybe... a S4 power weapon
or a S3, AP- template attack? Though that makes the template attack pretty weak... not sure what to do.
SHOCK HAMMER
This is a thunder hammer whose energy field extends with each hit, like the shock blade, granting an extra long-range attack. Hits made with the energy field (measured with a Template) are resolved at Strength 3.
This is even worse than the shock blade, because the thunder hammer is so powerful in melee. This gives you multiple potent template attacks per turn against light infantry in melee
and powerful hits for dealing with single tough melee opponents
and antitank capability (because one major purpose of the thunder hammer is tankbusting). It's strong against everything in the game. Not good.
Also, note that if you're launching template attacks in close combat while using this weapon, there's a real chance of some of them hitting your own guys. I'm not sure you're allowed to do that; the ability to hit an enemy with area-effect weapons when your own troops will be caught in the blast is
extremely rare in 40k, with good reason.
TARGET DESIGNATOR
This is a communication device, like a signum. The target must be within the designating unit's line-of-sight. Unlike a signum, the device allows any Steel Vulture to shoot a target with the designating unit's Ballistic Skill, even if the firing unit cannot see the target; the player must declare he is using this ability, and identify the designating unit, before firing a shot.
Those with the rank of master sergeant or higher (Leadership 10) will carry a target designator to direct his unit's firepower. A Master Techmarine uses his when he must destroy technology to prevent its capture.
Without having the Space Marine Codex in front of me to see how this compares to a normal signum, I don't know what to say.
Sidewinder wrote:Each company may have a maximum of five enhanced marines.
Edit: Originally, each company may have a maximum of three.
This is... excessive. You're making these guys so powerful that five of them are likely to be
ludicrously overpowered, even in a large army. What precedents are there for this sort of thing on the tabletop, and what kind of point costs are we looking at?
Also, what rules do they follow? Are they independent characters, or what?
YUN-FAT PATTERN "GOD OF GUNS"This grants Ballistic Skill 6 and the ability to re-roll failed "to hit" or "to wound" rolls against a target; the player must choose which before shooting. If the marine forgoes the ability to re-roll, he may simultaneously shoot two different targets with weapons of the same family; permitted combinations include plasma pistol and plasma gun, bolt pistol and boltgun, inferno pistol and meltagun, laspistol and lasgun. This ability may be used with combi-weapons of a same type; a plasma pistol and combi-plasma gun's secondary weapon may be used, the pistol and combi-plasma gun's primary (bolt) weapon may not.
The marine can dodge bullets; this counts as a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks launched outside a six-inch radius. It is useless in close combat, or against an ordnance barrage.
...So he can dodge
energy weapons? And his dodging skills grant him protection equivalent to the Imperium's most advanced personal force field technology? And he gets BS 6, AND he gets to reroll failed "to wound" checks? Sorry, but... no. Just no. This is ridiculously powerful, and should have a point cost comparable to that of a large tank or a Space Marine chapter master... possibly higher.
If you turned this guy into a pistol dual-wielder (and with an augmented Space Marine it's at least conceivable that this could work), that would be... better. There's a precedent for treating a pair of pistols as a single twin-linked weapon, too; that's how Ursakar Creed does it with hellpistols. Also, by cutting down on his attack range making him a pistolero improves the balance, because he has to get close to deliver an effective attack, which lets units charge into melee range and overwhelm him.
KENT PATTERN "MAN OF STEEL"
This grants Strength 5, Toughness 5, Wounds 3, and a 6+ invulnerable save against all attacks.
At a reasonable (read: high) point cost this is... reasonable. Especially if these are the only guys in your army who are all that effective in close combat. One of these guys is about as dangerous in hand to hand as an Ork warboss with a cybork body; check the point cost of that Warboss as a reference point for how much these monsters should cost.
STEWART PATTERN "EYE OF HEAVEN"This grants a 5+ invulnerable save against psychic attacks, four powers from the "Librarian Psychic Powers" list, and the ability to use two psychic powers each turn.
Bad. This is an upgraded Librarian, and Librarians are rare. Also, it implies that the Adeptus Mechanicus is dabbling heavily in psychic powers, which is a great way to convince the Inquisition that this chapter is going heretical and needs to be mass-drivered into oblivion by a few other chapters' battle barges.
This is new to the list.
ALPHA PATTERN "ASSAULT BREAKER"
This allows a marine to go berserk, become subject to the "Feel No Pain" and "Furious Charge" special rules, and automatically pass any "Morale" or "Pinning" test.
He gains Attacks 10; this will not stack with any bonus but a shock weapon's energy field. He may re-roll failed "to hit" or "to wound" rolls in close combat; the player must choose before attacking.
The marine may use this ability one turn per game; otherwise the resulting physical and mental strain will kill him.
Do you have ANY IDEA how overpowered that is? Ten melee attacks per round,
with a power weapon? A power weapon that you want to make template attacks over and above its normal attacks!?
The developer of this enhancement is unidentified; some suspect it was Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters.
Edit: Significant changes in the enhancement's effects and limitations. Originally, the berserker gains Attacks 5, and may use this ability once every ten turns.
Games traditionally last six turns, so that limitation would have been useless anyway. 5 Attacks would be... less ludicrously overpowered.
Also, having a modification originate with the Primarch of one of the Traitor Legions would be
another great way to convince the Inquisition that your chapter needs to be mass-drivered into oblivion.
Sidewinder wrote:The nature of their mission forces the Vultures to deviate from the Codex Astartes. Each company is autonomous and self-sufficient, its captain granted the authority to act as he sees fit, in the Adeptus Mechanicus' interests. Each major warship is capable of manufacturing munitions and other materiel-- even battle tanks, given sufficient time and metal ore...
This is problematic too. From a logistics standpoint it means an enormous amount of space and mass aboard ship has to be dedicated to manufacturing capability, which should either cripple the chapter's ships
as warships or force them to be built to much larger nonstandard patterns to achieve the same combat power.
From an ideological standpoint, the Space Marines' warships are NOT among the galaxy's best armed for a reason: during the Horus Heresy, the Traitor Legions controlled large fleets of spaceships directly and used them to painful effect. Afterwards, the new-formed Chapters were stripped of most of their warships, and are now restricted to ships that are designed more for troop transport and surface-to-space fire support than for space combat: Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers.
That's part of the Imperium's system of checks and balances: no one part of the Imperial government can dominate the rest. The Space Marines (and the Imperial Guard) can both be neutralized by the Imperial Navy. Giving a Marine chapter that kind of ability to operate independently of its bases and to manufacture its own weapons on mobile platforms would be a major violation of this principle. Among other things, it would make the Steel Vultures effectively independent of their fortress-monastery... when one of the Imperium's chief defenses against renegade Marines is that it "knows where they live," so to speak, and can target their homeworld with overwhelming force that destroys their logistical support.
Four tactical squads and one specialist squad (assault, devastator, or scout, per mission requirements) form a platoon. A master sergeant, identified by four chevrons on his helmet and breastplate, leads the unit.
This is reasonable, though (obviously) non-Codex compliant; Guilliman recognized no unit between the squad and company levels.
Two to five companies form an expeditionary force. The leader is a marine with two to three stars on his helmet and breastplate, known as a "high captain" or "marshal." A Chapter Council governs the Vultures, who recognize the Fabricator-General of Mars as their chapter master.
A Space Marine chapter that's run by a
non-Marine? Not plausible.
Note the Steel Vulture leaders invert the Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill values given in 'Codex: Space Marines'.
I'd advise weakening them in close combat even more than that (reduced initiative or attacks per round might be good). Give them a real
weakness, at least relative to other armies of comparable point cost and toughness.
Sidewinder wrote:[TRANSPORTS]
HIPPO: BS 4. Armor 11 (F), 11 (S), 10 (R)
This open-topped tank, a Rhino variant, has the transport capacity for ten models (including Terminators).
The modification was made after large numbers of Land Raiders sacrificed their transport capacity to mount Earthshaker cannons.
Imagine a pickup truck.
How is this different from the Rhino, aside from being more vulnerable? Why not just use Rhinos? Bear in mind that using this as an armored mobile bunker for a squad of Marines to shoot from is both... underpowered and overpowered at the same time. A vehicle with armor 11 is WAY more vulnerable to enemy heavy weapons, and one good hit on the "Hippo" could kill the whole squad. But on the other hand, it also makes the squad nigh-immune to light weapons fire, which is overpowered against enemies that don't carry the heavy weapons to break the armor from long range.
[FAST ATTACK]
LAND SPEEDER TEMPEST BETA: BS 4. Armor 11 (F), 10 (S), 10 (R)
This fast skimmer is subject to the "Deep Strike" special rule. A belly gun turret (taken from the Land Speeder Tornado) mounts a heavy bolter. The nose-mounted target designator distinguishes the Tempest Alpha. It is otherwise identical to the Land Speeder Tempest, with a twin-linked missile launcher.
A heavy flamer with coaxial boltgun, Avenger, or turbo-melta may replace the heavy bolter.
How does this compare to standard Land Speeder variants in firepower?
LAND SPEEDER TORRENT: BS 4. Armor 11(F), 11 (S), 10 (R)
This fast skimmer is subject to the "Deep Strike" and "Scout" special rules. A belly gun turret mounts a heavy bolter. The Land Speeder Torrent has a jamming beacon, target designator, and transport capacity for six models (excluding Terminators).
The Torrent has an access point on each side, from which a marine may shoot; this requires him to be magnetically locked onto the floor, and cannot be used during an assault.
A Cerberus launcher (taken from the Land Speeder Storm), heavy flamer with coaxial boltgun, Avenger, or turbo-melta may replace the bolter.
Ditto.
An enclosed crew compartment (taken from the Rhino), enhanced engines, and dual repulsor plates distinguish the Land Speeder Torrent.
Wait. So you took the crew compartment of an APC and mounted it
on a speeder? That's... that is very wrong, from an engineering standpoint. Wow.
PEGASUS BIKER: WS 4, BS 4, S 4, T 4 (5), W 1, I 4, A 2, Ld 9, Sv 3+
This jetbike is subject to the "Deep Strike" special rule. Its nose mounts a twin-linked storm bolter, which may depress or elevate 45 degrees for strafing.
A twin-linked Gemini gun may replace the bolter.
Cost? Plasma-armed jetbikes would be ridiculously effective as tank hunters. Also, the use of these jetbikes in quantity turns the Vultures into a much faster-moving army than they ought to be.
Yeah, and you gave it to them as a
standard fast attack choice. That's wrong.
Sidewinder wrote:VINDICATOR VANQUISHER: BS 4. Armor 13 (F), 11 (S), 10 (R)
This tank replaces the Demolisher with a Vanquisher battle cannon.
It may have the Beta modification.
A Vindicator Vanquisher is deployed only when its peerless range and armor-piercing capability are needed; a Thunderhawk may only carry one, the long barrel taking up space for a second vehicle.
...The "beta" modification? Never mind. The real problems here are twofold:
1) This is a completely different weapon from the standard Vindicator design; it's a long range tank hunter rather than a short range siege tank.
2) The Vanquisher cannon is
extremely rare; indeed, as I recall the only planet ever capable of making the things has already been lost.
LAND RAIDER THUNDERER: BS 4. Armor 14 (F), 14 (S), 14 (R)
This tank has a semi-retractable turret for a Thunderfire cannon. It is otherwise identical to a Land Raider, with a twin-linked lascannon in each sponson. It has a transport capacity for 12 models.
How much is the extra Thunderfire worth?
The Vultures mounted the Thunderfire to counter human (or xeno) wave tactics. Efforts to fit Land Raiders with a Leman Russ battle cannon were judged impractical.
LAND RAIDER EARTHSHAKER: BS 4. Armor 14 (F), 14 (S), 14 (R)
EARTHSHAKER BARRAGE: Range 36-240", Strength 9, AP 3. Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast (type)
EARTHSHAKER DIRECT FIRE: Range 72", Strength 9, AP 3. Ordnance 1, Large Blast (type)
This tank has an Earthshaker cannon in an enclosed crew compartment, and a twin-linked heavy bolter in each sponson.
Why are they using rare and expensive Land Raider chassis for a self-propelled gun? Wouldn't it make more sense to mount them on a Rhino or Predator chassis, the way the Guard uses the Chimera instead of the Leman Russ as the basis for their Basilisks?
Earthshakers are artillery; they're supposed to fire from outside the enemy's effective range, not to charge in close where the enemy can pot them with AT weapons. There's no logical reason to put one on a heavily armored vehicle... unless your goal is to create the most firepower-wanked vehicle possible.
Picture the
Land Raider Ares. Replace the Demolisher and twin-linked assault cannons with an Earthshaker. Send forth this Frankenstein tank to ass-rape your opponents on the tabletop.
The fact that you're boasting about how this vehicle will ass-rape opponents on the tabletop is... not promising.
Sidewinder wrote:BETA
This suffix designates a Rhino with a modified exhaust system; it may apply to vehicles sharing this chassis, such as "Predator Annihilator Beta." Once per game, the exhaust pipes may project and ignite promethium, becoming flamers. The flames cannot be aimed; they are used for close defense, or to cover debarking marines.
Modified vehicles have angled pipes to direct the flame; this is usually sideways.
There are a lot of practical reasons why this is a truly bad idea... using exhaust pipes as flamethrowers. Bad.
Also, on the tabletop, how do you cover it being a fixed-mount weapon?
