StarDestroyer.Net BBS

In response to those Avatar bashing "fan" fics which have come up, I decided to write a short once off crossover. Try and guess which sci fi character it crosses over with.

Doctor Grace Augustine was dying. Not the most pleasant of sensations and certainly she never expected to be dying here. On Pandora. The world so alien, yet so amazing in its creatures. Grace had made it her life’s work as a scientist to study the wild life on this world, she knew the risks. From the flying banshees to the thanators, that was the risk one took when visited Pandora. Too bad she never expected to be shot by humans, her own kind.

Grace could sense her connection to Eywa as the Na’vi watched over her by the Tree of Souls. It was beautiful she thought. Nearby her comatose Avatar body was wrapped by the Tree’s bioneural connections as the Omaticaya prayed that her soul or her essence would be transferred to the Avatar. It was not to be, as she could feel herself becoming one with Eywa.

It wasn’t supposed to end like this. Grace and her team of scientists were supposed to be able to help negotiate a treaty with the Omaticaya so that RDA company could mine unobtainium. Not end in a shooting war with RDA laying waste to the Na’vi Hometree.

At least as when I die I get to experience being with Eywa. Her last thoughts were of the words of a human novelist who name eluded her in Grace’s confuses state. The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray.

Then something wonderful happened. The strange sound filled the forest. It was hard to describe it, barely audible over the Na’vi’s chanting. It was an odd wheezing and groaning sound. Suddenly Grace felt her connection to her Avatar strengthen, as if some outside force was pushing her mind into the Avatar. Then she felt that force. Communicated with it. It was frightening, like a million stars had suddenly increase their intensity several fold. Yet the presence was also wonderful.

It wasn’t just communicating with her. The stranger was talking with Eywa, but Grace couldn’t grasp the conversation. As Grace’s Avatar opened its eyes for the first time in days, her thoughts were that the best laid plans of mice and men may often go astray, but the plans of demigods were another matter. Especially for this particular one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

“He is here. Oh God he is here”.

“Who is here” Jake asked. The elation of Grace being seemingly resurrected into her Avatar body was quickly drowned out by the thought that she may not be all there.

“The Lonely God. The Man without a Home.”

“The what?”. Jake was becoming increasingly puzzled.

“He has come. He has asked Eywa for permission to bring something to Pandora.”

“Ooookay.” Jake thought was best to handle Grace with kiddie gloves. The transfer had obviously not gone smoothly.

“What did Eywa say?”

“Eywa is still thinking it over”

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Jake got up slowly. RDA’s destruction of Home tree. Their killing of Na’vi civilians. Now this. Grace’s madness. Another ledger that needed to be squared.

Motioning for Tsu'tey to translate for him, Jake prepared to give the best speech of his life.

As Jake talked about sending the Sky people a message, about uniting the Na’vi tribes for the confrontation with the humans on Pandora, Grace knew that the Lonely God will do it for them. If only Eywa accepted the offer.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

“The Natives are grouped by this structure. The so called Tree of Souls. This is their deity”.

Quaritch paused letting the sniggers build up among his troops of ex marines.

“We will….”

“Relocate soonish I should hope”

Quaritch had been about to say something along the lines of destroying Eywa and searing the defeat into the Na’vi’s collective consciousness when he was interrupted by a man and a woman who had someone gotten into his briefing room. He didn’t recognise them. They were certainly not one of his personnel, and they didn’t look like any of Augustine’s scientists, but he decided that was most probably who they were. He quickly waved away soldiers who had moved in to grab the duo. He could do with a verbal workout.

“Who..”

“Oh look Doctor. Toy soldiers.”

“Shush Donna, these people are quite serious”.

“Yeah. Attacking natives armed with bows and arrows with gun ships and giant robots. Bet you they feel pretty brave. What’s next. Squash a few ants”

That woman had the most irritating laugh Quaritch thought.

“Pandora is worse than hell.” Quaritch thundered. “Any one of these marines who have survive for months where every thing which crawls, walks or flies is trying to kill you is better than any of Augustine’s brain trust”.

“Lets not talk about hell because clearly you don’t have a conception of what it is. I am here to discuss your relocation.” The Doctor paused thinking back to the dying days of the Time War. Now that was truly hell. Hell which even the Time Lords could not survive.

“Our what?”

“Pandora. This planet has a giant neural connection among itself. You ever notice that. Oh that’s right, you are too busy playing toy soldiers to discover whats in front of your faces. Just like with the Ood. Anyway, it’s a sentient planet which has agreed for me to umm, relocate some nasty critters here. Its perfect for them. Plenty of forest, and in a parallel universe with a small gap for me to come through. Anyway, you primitives are threatening my operation.”

The gall of this man. Telling them what they can or cannot do. Parallel universes? This man was clearly deranged.

“RDA’s mandate here is to get us some unobtainium. I am sure if you weren’t stuck in some book you would be aware of how valuable this is to humanity.”

“Helps with FTL communication.” The Doctor waved his hand dismissively. “ I have seen better. Let me guess. Soon you will be saying that because its so valuable its essentially for humanities survival even though you guys were doing fine without it.”

“Like oil” Donna chimed in.

“Yes like oil. Useful stuff, but not essential. Certainly not at the cost of destroying the home of the indigenous species. You humans will just have to accept a lower standard of living. Kind of your own fault actually, but your population stabilises to a more sustainable level things will become better. Now who was it that said something about population. Oh that’s right Malthus. Nice fellow he was…” The Doctor trailed off.

“We tried to negotiate in good faith. I even used non lethal force. In return the Na’vi has fired their arrows at us. Arrows tipped with a neurotoxin which kills within minutes. We have shown incredible restraint here. We have..”

“Was that after you destroyed their Hometree.” The Doctor’s voice had suddenly become menacing. For a moment even Quaritch was taken aback. However he reminded himself that he was in control. He was master of his own destiny. So lost in his own thoughts Quaritch almost missed the Doctor’s next question.

“Did you ever hesitate before you gave the order to destroy the Na’vi’s home. Bows and arrows against gunships? Did that voice in your head ever tell you to stop?”

“My conscience?” Quaritch’s derision was matched by laughter in the crowd. “Next you tree huggers will be telling me to do a song and dance with the natives and all problems will be solved.”

“I wasn’t referring to your conscience. I am talking about FEAR. Because if it is alright for you to take what you want because you are stronger, then it follows that its alright for someone stronger to do the same to you. When it is humanity’s turn, when it is your turn, will you cry like the Na’vi did? Beg for mercy. Will you fight futilely against the coming of the night. Does that frighten you? That someone might be stronger than you. Stronger than Man, the undisputed master of air, sea, land and now space.”

“Nothing is absolutely right.” Quaritch replied. “However should someone try to force us from our homes you can be hell sure we will put up a hell of a fight, and they shouldn’t attack us without expecting it.”

“Ah, so might makes right. The same justification uttered by scores of dictators throughout time and space. I am so not impressed.”

“In case you haven’t noticed, Doctor, if that’s your real name..”

“Actually my real name would be quite hard to pronounce…”

“In case you haven’t noticed, I have several squadrons of ex marines right here. If we truly believed might makes right, then you just made a big mistake mister. Because I have the army. How many troops do you command?”

“Well now that you mentioned it, a few hundred actually. I would have bought millions more, but any more than that would most probably upset the balance of nature on this world.”

The Doctor’s reply was greeted by vacuous laughter.

“What army? You expect us to jump at shadows, just because you say so?”

“Oh, oh.” Donna murmured.

“Count the shadows Mr Quaritch. Before you only had two shadows, now you have three.”

“Throw him in the brig.”

“Last warning”.

“Get him out of here right now. I have a war to fight.”

Those were Quaritch’s last words as the Vashta Nerada made short work of him. Where before stood Miles Quaritch, head of security on Pandora, now stood an skeleton. Soon the whole human base on Pandora would feel their hunger.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

“Jake, something has happened.” Max was nearly panicking on the communicator.

“Some stranger came, called himself the Doctor and then started slaughtering the people on the base. I don’t know how he does it. What ever weapon he uses, it destroys all organic matter. Only the skeleton remains. Quaritch and Selfridge are already dead. Me and all other scientists are gathered here.. Oh god they are here.”

Jake could see it, but he couldn’t believe his eyes. The thing before him was wearing the clothes of a marine, however all that stood there was the skeleton. Shadows were starting to stretch out from it.

“No. You cannot have them.” A man stood there armed with a strange metallic wand, for want of a better word.

The being that was once a marine paused as if daring the Doctor to challenge him.

“You know what I am, and what I can do.”

Without a word the skeleton turned and walked away.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

“The man called the Doctor, if man is the right word to describe him. He looks like us, speaks our languages, walks like us, but he isn’t like us. The fact that he can breath in Pandora’s atmosphere without a mask proves it”. Jake paused recalling the events of the past few months.

“When I first came to Pandora, Quaritch warned me that this was worse than hell. He was wrong. I saw those creatures the Doctor bought to Pandora. These Vashta Nerada. The Na’vi now call them the Shadows that hunger. Tsu'tey and a few of them are started to domesticate them. They now call themselves the Shadow priests. They are our most potent weapon should RDA return. He has also given me a weapon in case they come back. Its called a coderain signal. Apparently it causes the copper in our weapons to become excited or something. Long story short, human guns won’t work when its activated.”

“A few scientists will travel back to Earth. They will tell the authorities what RDA really tried to do here . A few will remain here among the Na’vi. Grace is better now. Now that the Lonely God has left. She is already writing a new book and hopes one day to have it published. Its called Avatar or something like that. What a corny name. But hey, its her story. Maybe one day they will make it into a best selling movie.”

“The Doctor says we will may see him again one day. He tells us to look up.”

“This is the last video log I am going to make. After tonight it won’t matter. Jake signing off.”

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Epilogue

The humans will return to Pandora two more times. The first time they again tried to mine unobtanium. First with bribes, then with force. With the aid of the coderain signal and the Vashna Nerada, the Na’vi made short work of their expedition force.

Twenty years later the humans returned with more military force. The captain ordered a orbital bombardment of Pandora. To the natives it would seem like a big explosion occurred in the sky. To the humans the gasp of disbelief could be heard when a strange blue box blocked their mass driver. Even more amazing was when the box latched onto them with a tractor beam. But weren’t such things the stuff of science fiction. Within a few minutes the human ship was back in Earth’s orbit with a message blazed across several communications networks.

LEAVE PANDORA ALONE. I WILL BE WATCHING.

Interesting fic. As the writer of one of the fics mentioned in the prologue, I can see where you're coming from with this one.

Ten would doubtless have a problem with the situation on Pandora, and would probably overreact, but I can't quite seeing him setting the Vashta Nerada on an entire base of humans. This is the character which goes on about how wonderful the human race is every other episode, and allegedly has a rule against killing. Granted, he crossed the line a few times, but he probably wouldn't codone the deaths of all the soldiers.

Other than that mild OOC, a pretty good fic.

I liked it.

By the way, I think you meant to write "several squads of Marines", not "squadrons". I wasn't too keen on the whole "coderain signal" device(?) though.

The coderain signal is actually part of Doctor Who canon. One of the UNIT episodes with the 10th Doctor, though I can't remember which one exactly. Mind Control was also involved, or was it clones? Something like that.

I don't know about this one though. Its well written, but I'm not really fond of the premise. Its a bit Mary Sueish on the Doctor's part, which really isn't his thing. He interferes when things are going out of whack, and the Na'vi would have triumphed in the end. Not to mention the fact that with a total slaughter of the RDA base personal means a whole helluva lot of innocent people were killed. Even if the Doctor saved the support staff, the civilians mid-level administrators, etc. etc. etc. in addition to the scientists (which... probably not, the Vashta Nerada work fast) there were still plenty of grunts just there following orders for the benefits and the good cause.

Add that to the fact that the Doctor just murdered everyone there... Even the 10th isn't that bloodthirsty. This was a slaughter, and I really couldn't see how the Doctor would justify that.

Ugolino wrote:Interesting fic. As the writer of one of the fics mentioned in the prologue, I can see where you're coming from with this one.

Ten would doubtless have a problem with the situation on Pandora, and would probably overreact, but I can't quite seeing him setting the Vashta Nerada on an entire base of humans. This is the character which goes on about how wonderful the human race is every other episode, and allegedly has a rule against killing. Granted, he crossed the line a few times, but he probably wouldn't codone the deaths of all the soldiers.

Other than that mild OOC, a pretty good fic.

The problem with the Doctor is that unlike a character like Superman who we are sure will almost always follow his no kill rule, the Doctor's conduct can seemingly vary between stories. You could explain this as simply he has reasons only known to him or he is just written inconsistently, but there is clear precedent for him killing.

The idea of giving the humans their last warning was taken from "The Runaway Bride" where he offered the Racnoss Queen the option to relocate, but she refused prefering to destroy humanity. We know what happened next, where he pretty much committed genocide destorying the Queen and her eggs. Also he can be a bit of a bastard, see "The Family of blood" where he gives the Family immortality, however eternal suffering isn't quite what they had in mind.

So in this fic, I had the Doctor give the humans one chance to relocate just like he did the Racnoss, although I admit it was meant as a parody of Selfridge's statement about the Na'vi needing to relocate because they had something RDA wanted. Obviously the humans fail to see the irony. The point is though, compared to those actions mentioned above, his current one seems somewhere in the middle of the road.

[R_H] wrote:I liked it.

By the way, I think you meant to write "several squads of Marines", not "squadrons". I wasn't too keen on the whole "coderain signal" device(?) though.

Thanks. The coderain device was taken from The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky. Basically the Sontarans used the technology to nullify UNITs weapons, until the Doctor explained how it worked. After that UNIT adapted to it by using weapons without copper components. I have no doubt the humans in Avatar would be able to do the same. However without the advice they won't know what went wrong.

Jans wrote:
I don't know about this one though. Its well written, but I'm not really fond of the premise. Its a bit Mary Sueish on the Doctor's part, which really isn't his thing. He interferes when things are going out of whack, and the Na'vi would have triumphed in the end.

If you mean Mary Sueish in the sense that he gets things done while the regular characters are relegated to supporting roles, then I suppose so. The problem is when sci fi crossovers where one side is much more technologically superior to the other, you are going to run into such problems unless you deliberately power down one side. Obviously I chose not to.

If you mean Mary Sueish in the sense that he intervenes when the side he helps is going to win anyway, I think that misses the point. That is the Doctor's interference helps the other side by minimising casualties for that side.

Consider the Na'vi's casualties were reduced from having their armies routed to zero.

I will further submit examples where his interference ends up "only" minimising casualties eg "Water of Mars", "Christmas invasion" where we know the humans were going to triumph anyway. The former because they blow up Mars base taking 100% fatalities and the latter because the Torchwood cannon would blow up the Sycorax ship anyway, but it would most probably be a high price to pay given a) had the prime minister and several humans were on board and b) the ship was right over london. So its not like he just leaves people to their own devices if its not at a "fixed" point in time.

Not to mention the fact that with a total slaughter of the RDA base personal means a whole helluva lot of innocent people were killed. Even if the Doctor saved the support staff, the civilians mid-level administrators, etc. etc. etc. in addition to the scientists (which... probably not, the Vashta Nerada work fast) there were still plenty of grunts just there following orders for the benefits and the good cause.

If any of those grunts participated the destruction of Home tree I really can't feel too much sympathy for them especially given that even in human societies "I was just following orders" excuse doesn't cut it in a court of law.

Add that to the fact that the Doctor just murdered everyone there... Even the 10th isn't that bloodthirsty. This was a slaughter, and I really couldn't see how the Doctor would justify that.

See my example of the Racnoss above. As to how he would justify it, "I know best". No I am not kidding. See the Christmas invasion. He considered it murder for the humans to shoot the Sycorax in the back so to speak after they had already surrendered and was retreating. RDA was not in a comparable position. Moreover he will simply justify it as he knows best. Arrogant? Absolutely. Does he know best? Well we don't know since he never gave further justification than an appeal to his own authority. Which is not to say that he doesn't have good arguments, but felt it was not worth it to articulate them.

I think the death is a little needless here; he could probably accomplish the same thing by having the Vashta Nerada devour some plants by the base as a demonstration, and taunting them more. Their equipment is not going to be vashta proof, given that they were going around in shirtsleeves, and the shadows could eventually get through fifty first century spacesuits with the mesh density turned right up. I can imagine them getting into AMP suits, even, given that. A little patented Doctor sabotage on the RDA's airfleet would more than scupper their plans.

Also, I have the hilarious image of him taunting them with "by the way, those shadows, they just came from the greatest library of the sixth millennium. I hope you enjoyed having better guns than the natives... you won't have that for long."

Could somebody point me in the direction of said "basher-'fics"? I was only joking in the Movie review thread when I said I wanted to write one, and I'm pretty amused that some people actually did. I've already trawled FF.net but I now need eye-bleach from all the insipid romance fiction.

this was posted in the avatar review thread. Essentially it becomes an exposition of the authors view via a character he / she created just for this purpose. At least I tried to make the dialogue between Quaritch and the Doctor sound like how they would speak in character, rather than just cut and paste arguments from the avatar review thread.

Note the flaws in that bashing fic were already discussed in the avatar review thread
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=575

I still think that's a bit too far, even for the likable psycho that Ten was. He does kill, but he never does it so blatantly and to such a large group of people.

As for mary sue-ism, that's unfortunately mostly canon.

My "basher" fic was a 40k crossover.

mr friendly guy wrote:this was posted in the avatar review thread. Essentially it becomes an exposition of the authors view via a character he / she created just for this purpose. At least I tried to make the dialogue between Quaritch and the Doctor sound like how they would speak in character, rather than just cut and paste arguments from the avatar review thread.

I read part of it. I got about half way through, and couldn't finish it. I'm no Avatar fanwhore, but that "fan"fic was just terrible.

Jans wrote:Even if the Doctor saved the support staff, the civilians mid-level administrators, etc. etc. etc. in addition to the scientists (which... probably not, the Vashta Nerada work fast) there were still plenty of grunts just there following orders for the benefits and the good cause.

I didn't get the same impression from Jake's description of the soldiers in the movie's beginning. The word that most immediately comes to mind is "contractors" - PC-speak for MERCENARIES. They weren't there for the good cause... they were there for the paycheck.

I think the biggest concern I'd offer up here would be the classic "invasive species" problem: After the Vashta Nerada finish off the human base, what's to prevent them from getting out of hand and turning on the Na'vi and/or other planetary life? I know they don't generally seem to get out of hand in the series (that library incident was a one-off as far as I can tell), but still...

The thought of the Na'vi getting the Library treatment fills my heart with glee.

They usually only kill isolated individuals at irregular intervals, mostly praying on small animals, if I remember correctly.

I hated it.

Yes, the RDA is evil and the Na'vi are good. Woo. I don't find seeing the bad guys getting slaughtered to be any more fun then seeing the good guys get slaughtered -- particularly when the majority of those "bad guys" are punch-clock workers just trying to keep their heads down. The doctor is even more of a Mary-Sue here then he is in the series, and the entire idea of the Navi benefiting from the Great Library is absurd given that they don't use or desire technological devlopment.

Geez, people should realise this is an "Avatar bashing fic" bashing fic. Next I am going to have General Zod push the moon into the Earth during the events of Superman II, where the Kryptonians lecture Kal-el on how primitive and barbaric the humans of the 20 th century are. Therefore its ok to kill them. Although I think that would be even more subtle than this fic.

Ah, the "I was only following orders" argument. In the modern world its now become we are just "punch clock" workers right. Because killing the bad guys is wrong apparently. I sure wonder whether lazerus complains about the Doctor killing fleets of Daleks in "Journey's end" and an entire planet of Time Lords in "End of time", because I am going to say in those episodes he killed more individuals than he did in this fan fic. But thats ok, those bad guys really deserved it, unlike RDA employees who were just following orders? AM I RITE?

The Doctor is more Mary sueish than usual. I suppose if John Sheriden's whitestar fleet turns up and defeats RDA's ships it would be Mary Sueish too, right? The fact is Avatar is a low powered sci fi setting, even less powerful than Star Trek. Doctor Who is a high end setting. By sheer difference in power the Doctor will automatically seem Mary Sueish. Seem being the definite word, because having the more powerful setting dominate the lesser setting is what you would expect.

Its also ridiculous on the surface when you have the Doctor saved not just one planet, but the WHOLE universe, how many times now? I mean he did it in "Journey's end", "The End of Time", "Logopolis", etc etc. But apparently just saving one planet makes him MORE Mary Sueish. WTF. Moreover he does it against high end technological foes which will make RDA shit in their pants, but hey, whatever.

Also I believe it was NecronLord's idea, not mine that the Na'vi benefit from the Library technology. The technology the Doctor gave Jake was from elsewhere, and he was the only Na'vi who would have an idea how to use technology more advanced than bows and arrows.

Sheesh, if you are going to criticise it, at least apply fair standard to things like what constitutes being "More Mary Sueish" than usual, or how about criticise ideas I made (as opposed to suggested by another poster). Yeah thats a thought.

Geez, people should realise this is an "Avatar bashing fic" bashing fic. Next I am going to have General Zod push the moon into the Earth during the events of Superman II, where the Kryptonians lecture Kal-el on how primitive and barbaric the humans of the 20 th century are. Therefore its ok to kill them. Although I think that would be even more subtle than this fic.

No matter what kind of fic it was "supposed" to be, it wasn't interesting, it wasn't fun to read, and it wasn't funny. Therefore, it's bad. Maybe it was meant to be a highly over-the-top mockery of Avatar-Bashing fics, but if so, it fell flat and just came across as equally insipid for all the same reasons.

Ah, the "I was only following orders" argument. In the modern world its now become we are just "punch clock" workers right. Because killing the bad guys is wrong apparently. I sure wonder whether lazerus complains about the Doctor killing fleets of Daleks in "Journey's end" and an entire planet of Time Lords in "End of time", because I am going to say in those episodes he killed more individuals than he did in this fan fic. But thats ok, those bad guys really deserved it, unlike RDA employees who were just following orders? AM I RITE?

Try again, dipshit. I clearly stated that the RDA was evil, that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing the employees slaughtered. The Nazi's were evil, would I read a fanfic all about feeding hundreds of Nazi's to the Vashta Nerada? No, because that, like this fanfic, would be utterly retarded. Instead of punishing those responsible proportionate to their crimes and resolving the underlying conflict so that Humanity and the Navi can work together, the Doctor uses his awesome power to butcher humans like cattle, and in doing so ensures that the Navi will be primitive forever.

God like power, and all he uses it for is to be an arrogant, superior dick, addressing the immediate problem while making the underlying one's much worse, all with a double dose of the new-doctors holier-then-thou attitude.

The Doctor is more Mary sueish than usual. I suppose if John Sheriden's whitestar fleet turns up and defeats RDA's ships it would be Mary Sueish too, right? The fact is Avatar is a low powered sci fi setting, even less powerful than Star Trek. Doctor Who is a high end setting. By sheer difference in power the Doctor will automatically seem Mary Sueish. Seem being the definite word, because having the more powerful setting dominate the lesser setting is what you would expect.

No, he was Mary Sue'ish not because of his power -- but because he can do no wrong. Because he uses that power in an utterly ham-fisted way. Because he doesn't even try to address the fundamental problem, use subtly, or ensure that people are punished proportionate to what must be done. It's flat out, "If you agree with me, you're good, if you don't, eaten by aggressive nanite swarms." The fic clearly writes him as the hero when in reality, he's pretty much the worst of the canon Doctor rolled into one fanfic.

Its also ridiculous on the surface when you have the Doctor saved not just one planet, but the WHOLE universe, how many times now? I mean he did it in "Journey's end", "The End of Time", "Logopolis", etc etc. But apparently just saving one planet makes him MORE Mary Sueish. WTF. Moreover he does it against high end technological foes which will make RDA shit in their pants, but hey, whatever.

Again, not because of his power, but because he, like you, is written as an utter moron, as gung-ho for slaughter against "The Bad Guys" as the military stereotype he opposes.

Also I believe it was NecronLord's idea, not mine that the Na'vi benefit from the Library technology. The technology the Doctor gave Jake was from elsewhere, and he was the only Na'vi who would have an idea how to use technology more advanced than bows and arrows.

Yes, I was pointing out the flaw in NecronLord's idea. That was not directed at you.

Sheesh, if you are going to criticise it, at least apply fair standard to things like what constitutes being "More Mary Sueish" than usual, or how about criticise ideas I made (as opposed to suggested by another poster). Yeah thats a thought.

Why the fuck should I? Your fanfic blew like a cheap whore. It's "morality" would be hilariously hypocritical if it weren't so pathetic, the writing is shitty, the characterization is worse, and it manages to make the main character so unlikeable that the RDA seems okay -- because hey, which is worse, psuedo-conquistadors or a vengeful, petty, mass-murdering god?

lazerus wrote:
No matter what kind of fic it was "supposed" to be, it wasn't interesting, it wasn't fun to read, and it wasn't funny. Therefore, it's bad. Maybe it was meant to be a highly over-the-top mockery of Avatar-Bashing fics, but if so, it fell flat and just came across as equally insipid for all the same reasons.

Its bashing those fics by using the same arguments RDA apologists used, but turning it against them. Even Ugolino who wrote his own avatar bashing fic got the reference, or at least can see where I was coming from.

Try again, dipshit. I clearly stated that the RDA was evil, that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing the employees slaughtered. The Nazi's were evil, would I read a fanfic all about feeding hundreds of Nazi's to the Vashta Nerada? No, because that, like this fanfic, would be utterly retarded.

Nice dodge chickenshit. You tried to play down their evil by saying they were only "punch clock" workers. That was the thrust of that particular criticism, but I see you want to change the topic to something else. Hey, when you can't win the argument you are in, change it to one you can. AM I RITE?

Instead of punishing those responsible proportionate to their crimes and resolving the underlying conflict so that Humanity and the Navi can work together, the Doctor uses his awesome power to butcher humans like cattle, and in doing so ensures that the Navi will be primitive forever.

News flash. The Na'vi pretty much resisted the advances humans were offering them (Selfridge stated that in what the opening half an hour of the film and Jake pretty much reported they didn't want anything humans had to give) so blaming the Doctor for keeping the Na'vi primitive is pure bullshitting on your part. Keeping them primitive FOREVER takes your retardation to whole new levels. But hey I am sure you understand Avatar so well and you have a mind link with James Cameron so you know they will be primitive forever is some outside race doesn't give them technology.

As for punishing those responsibile proportionate to their crimes, were we even watching the same film? I guess not since you got holier than thou over keeping the Na'vi primitive forever when it was obvious to anyone who isn't a moron the thing keeping them primitive wasn't some outside force. Dumbass.

God like power, and all he uses it for is to be an arrogant, superior dick, addressing the immediate problem while making the underlying one's much worse, all with a double dose of the new-doctors holier-then-thou attitude.

News flash. Thats how he is written. Minus the making the underlying problem worse since you haven't actually explain how that is so compared to what would happen if the Na'vi were left to their own devices. Give you a hint since you are too retarded to count. The Na'vi fielded several thousand warriors. RDA would not have high numbers. If he left them alone the Na'vi would have taken high casualties, more so then what the Doctor inflicted on RDA. Ergo he saved more lives than what would happen. But I guess the lives of murdering aggressors are more important than primitives defending themselves. Now address this point.

No doubt you are going to shift the goalposts like you did earlier and say he could have come up with a better plan which ends up with everyone holding hands and singing songs or some shit. But guess what? That statement that he makes the underlying problem worse is still unsupported except by the drugs you're smoking.

No, he was Mary Sue'ish not because of his power -- but because he can do no wrong. Because he uses that power in an utterly ham-fisted way. Because he doesn't even try to address the fundamental problem, use subtly, or ensure that people are punished proportionate to what must be done. It's flat out, "If you agree with me, you're good, if you don't, eaten by aggressive nanite swarms." The fic clearly writes him as the hero when in reality, he's pretty much the worst of the canon Doctor rolled into one fanfic..

Lets ignore the fact that he used the same MO with the Racnoss and did worse because he pretty much genocided the race. So either way your claim its MORE Mary Sueish than he is in the series falls flat because by your logic he did more wrong in his own series and is still potrayed as the hero.

Again, not because of his power, but because he, like you, is written as an utter moron, as gung-ho for slaughter against "The Bad Guys" as the military stereotype he opposes..

Wow, the bloated septic tank can make up a new definition of Mary Sue.

Why the fuck should I? ?

Yeah, how dare I suggest you criticise things which ACTUALLY happened in the story.

I mean you are the oh so great lazerus you don't need to justify any claim. You don't like it. Fine. It was meant as a purely bashing fic the same way Star Trek bashing or Star Wars bashing fics are written. However you are a fucking retard and have made numerous bullshit statements like

a) playing down RDA's evil by saying they were punch clock workers when they were mercenaries. You then run away like the little chickenshit you are when I pointed that out, in favour of changing the argument. Bet you are going to run away some more in the next reply.

b) saying the Doctor is shown to be a greater Mary Sue than in his own series, even by which aspects you considered Mary Sueish that isn't true. He is written consistent with some of the behaviour he has demonstrated so accusing me of potraying him inaccurately is utter rubbish.

c) The doctor is keeping the Na'vi primitive forever. I bet you are going to run away from this point too, because your chicken little is coming out to play.

d) The Doctor is making the problem worse. Yeah I guess those dead Na'vi warriors who would have attacked anyway would agree with you. Gosh you're a retard.

Your fanfic blew like a cheap whore. It's "morality" would be hilariously hypocritical if it weren't so pathetic, the writing is shitty, the characterization is worse, and it manages to make the main character so unlikeable that the RDA seems okay -- because hey, which is worse, psuedo-conquistadors or a vengeful, petty, mass-murdering god?

So why don't you address the point I made earlier? Did you also complain when the Doctor did even worse to the Daleks and the Time Lords. Or does RDA personel have a special place in your heart considering your laughable reading of the morality of the situation seems to be a one sided analysis.

Its bashing those fics by using the same arguments RDA apologists used, but turning it against them. Even Ugolino who wrote his own avatar bashing fic got the reference, or at least can see where I was coming from.

Yes, and I got where you were coming from, but it's not funny, or fun, or interesting. I get what you're trying to parody, but it's still not good.

Nice dodge chickenshit. You tried to play down their evil by saying they were only "punch clock" workers. That was the thrust of that particular criticism, but I see you want to change the topic to something else. Hey, when you can't win the argument you are in, change it to one you can. AM I RITE?

As usual, no, you aren't. Punch clock villains may still be evil, but they don't necessarily all deserve to die. Not every member of the German Army is a war criminal, not every Germany citizen who collaborated with the Nazi regime deserves to be killed. By calling the punch-clock villains I indicated that while what they did was wrong, I felt no particular hostility towards them, and so derived no pleasure from watching them die.

News flash. The Na'vi pretty much resisted the advances humans were offering them (Selfridge stated that in what the opening half an hour of the film and Jake pretty much reported they didn't want anything humans had to give) so blaming the Doctor for keeping the Na'vi primitive is pure bullshitting on your part. Keeping them primitive FOREVER takes your retardation to whole new levels. But hey I am sure you understand Avatar so well and you have a mind link with James Cameron so you know they will be primitive forever is some outside race doesn't give them technology.

As for punishing those responsibile proportionate to their crimes, were we even watching the same film? I guess not since you got holier than thou over keeping the Na'vi primitive forever when it was obvious to anyone who isn't a moron the thing keeping them primitive wasn't some outside force. Dumbass.

Newsflash, fucktard -- steady with more technologically advanced civilization advances your civilization. The RDA was, indirectly, pushing the Navi to advance, they were just committing terrible warcrimes in the process, making it a net loss. A good solution would have been for the doctor to allow the humans to mine some Unobtanium in exchange for maintaining their network of schools across Pandora, and offering the Navi technologically advanced items in trade. What you call "bribes" is what sane people call "an offer." The doctor just needs to make sure that the Navi have the power to say no, so if they don't want the shiny toy that goes bling, they don't have to take it.

In other words, a reasonable solution would have been to keep the two civilizations in contact so the Navi can advance, while simultaneously protecting them from aggression or extortion.

Instead he just kills all the humans returning the Navi to their blissful, ignorant isolation.

News flash. Thats how he is written.

Cite it.

But I guess the lives of murdering aggressors are more important than primitives defending themselves.

No, you're just stupid and my point went over your head.

Lets ignore the fact that he used the same MO with the Racnoss and did worse because he pretty much genocided the race.

"Waah! He committed genocide! He is so evil! The skies turn dark in his presence and demons sing his name!"

Wait, no.

He killed one adult of the species, and one ship full of youngsters. Call it, maybe, a few thousand counts of murder, if we're *really* generous about the contents of that ship. Don't get me wrong, mass murder is still really bad, but he killed a few thousand members of his most hated enemy when the death of billions of humans was on the table if he didn't. That is hardly comparable to slaying all the humans who were clearly terrified of him and has no chance against his overwhelming firepower.

lazerus wrote:
As usual, no, you aren't. Punch clock villains may still be evil, but they don't necessarily all deserve to die. Not every member of the German Army is a war criminal, not every Germany citizen who collaborated with the Nazi regime deserves to be killed. By calling the punch-clock villains I indicated that while what they did was wrong, I felt no particular hostility towards them, and so derived no pleasure from watching them die.

I got that part moron. What I was criticising is how you downplayed them, as "just trying to keep their heads down" when its clear those the Doctor killed where mercenaries, who if they somehow didn't know what they were getting into at the start, it was drilled into their heads at the very beginning when they arrived on Pandora.

lazerus wrote: Newsflash, fucktard -- steady with more technologically advanced civilization advances your civilization.

Hey dumbshit, the Na'vi were refusing those advances anyway. In effect the Doctor changed nothing in terms of their technological development.

The RDA was, indirectly, pushing the Navi to advance, they were just committing terrible warcrimes in the process, making it a net loss. A good solution would have been for the doctor to allow the humans to mine some Unobtanium in exchange for maintaining their network of schools across Pandora, and offering the Navi technologically advanced items in trade.

Where you watching the same movie retard? The humans were already mining some of the Unobtanium. The conflict arose because they got greedy and wanted more. The humans had already tried offering the Na'vi things which they didn't want. Therefore the Doctor didn't ensure the Na'vi would remain primitive at the present, they were already making that choice themselves. Therefore your claim that it was the Doctor's fault is full of shit just like you. Now show some evidence that the Na'vi would have taken up the technology or else concede the point. But I bet you will dodge it right?

What you call "bribes" is what sane people call "an offer."

The semantic whoring. Whether is a bribe or an offer, the point is the Na'vi were shown to not want it fuckwit. Once again the Doctors actions contributed nothing to leaving them primitive, yet alone primitive FOOOOREVER.

The doctor just needs to make sure that the Navi have the power to say no, so if they don't want the shiny toy that goes bling, they don't have to take it.

Once again they already made the choice in the movie.

In other words, a reasonable solution would have been to keep the two civilizations in contact so the Navi can advance, while simultaneously protecting them from aggression or extortion.

This does not support your statement that the Doctor made the existing situation worse. You know, the one where the Na'vi will attack and take tremendous losses. You know the one when the Na'vi will win anyway and still severe contact with the humans (except a few). Geez, that sounds like the situation the Doctor left them in but with less overall casualties. Now back up your bullshit claims that a) the Doctor left them primitive forever and b) he made existing situation worse or concede the point coward.

Instead he just kills all the humans returning the Navi to their blissful, ignorant isolation.

Now I have absolute proof that you are a dishonest turd. He kills ALL the humans. Did you even fucking read the story properly? When can I get your concession? But I bet you will just shift the goalposts right? You do realise the Na'vi would be in the "blissful, ignorant isolation" without the Doctor's actions right? Therefore he could not have made the situation worse in that regard.

lazerus wrote:

News flash. Thats how he is written.

Cite it.

You have seen the show right?

1. You have read the examples I have cited where he essential casts judgment on an entire planet of Time Lords right?

2. You did read the posts previously where he does exactly the same thing to the Racnoss.

3. You have seen the Christmas Invasion where in a moment of arrogance he brings down Harriet Jone's sovereign and democratically elected government because he didn't like one decision.

4. You did see human nature / family of blood where he punishes members of the family with essentially eternal suffering for a finite crime because it personally effected him emotionally didn't you.

5. You did see how he and Donna essentially killed more Daleks than RDA mercenaries.

6. You did see him freeing a criminal go because he got on well with her in Planet of the Dead.

7. You did see him breaking the laws of time because he felt like it in Water of Mars and becoming the "Time Lord Victorious"

Now lets see what you said.

God like power, and all he uses it for is to be an arrogant, superior dick, addressing the immediate problem while making the underlying one's much worse, all with a double dose of the new-doctors holier-then-thou attitude.

Arrogance - I would say all those examples. Being a superior dick is a subjective thing, however example four fits the bill since the Family's crime was only finite but he punished them with eternal imprisonment (ie an infinite punishment).

I don't care if you dislike how the Doctor is potrayed in his own show. I do however take issue with your claim that I have someone potrayed him incorrectly. But then if you watch the show with the same level of detail your watched Avatar its obvious now how a dumbshit like you could fail to see the point.

lazerus wrote:

But I guess the lives of murdering aggressors are more important than primitives defending themselves.

No, you're just stupid and my point went over your head.

What an dishonest turd you are, with your selective quoting.
Lets summarise for you. You claimed the Doctor's actions made the situation worse. Given that the Na'vi would have taken more casualties than RDA had numbers the Doctors actions saved more lives because the Na'vi wouldn't have to fight RDA anymore. The only way the situation could be worse is if somehow a human life from RDA is worth more than several Na'vi. This point you refused point blank to address, because, maybe it would require you to concede that your original statement about making the situation worse is utter bunk.

You again refuse to defend your contention that the Doctor made things worse by changing the topic and talking about how you would write the story. Combined with a selective quoting and appealing to your own personal opinion, and we have a winner.

Now why don't you address how the Doctor made the situation worse, unless you really do think the life of a human is worth several Na'vi?

"Waah! He committed genocide! He is so evil! The skies turn dark in his presence and demons sing his name!"

OMG, you can appeal to your personal incredulity. Maybe we should concede in the presence of your awe inspiring stupidity.

Wait, no.

He killed one adult of the species, and one ship full of youngsters. Call it, maybe, a few thousand counts of murder, if we're *really* generous about the contents of that ship.

Actually he killed the youngsters. The queen was killed by the orders of Harold Saxon.
Your stupidity knows no bounds I see. Either that you are a dishonest turd, because the fact this was the last of the Racnoss was a fucking plot point.

The fact that the queen and her brood were the last of the Racnoss flew over your head? If a nation leaves only one member of an ethnic group alive it would be counted as genocide by the UN.

Meanwhile, lazerus finds out that the mercenaries employed by RDA are clearly not the last of the humans. Therefore what he did to the Racnoss as a whole was worse and was genocide.

Don't get me wrong, mass murder is still really bad, but he killed a few thousand members of his most hated enemy when the death of billions of humans was on the table if he didn't.

The Racnoss was his most hated enemy? What the fuck are you smoking boy?

I can imagine a one of those quiz nights in a group where one of the questions is, In Doctor Who, which alien is the title character's most hated enemy?

Random Doctor who fan 1 : Daleks.
Random member of the public : Daleks.
Lazerus : THE RACNOSS

This is no doubt more of your usual and utterly worthless hyperbole.

That is hardly comparable to slaying all the humans who were clearly terrified of him and has no chance against his overwhelming firepower.

Yeah you are right. Its not comparable because he didn't genocide the humans in my story.

Once again just for you, I don't care if you hate the Doctor as a character. I do care that you accuse me to writing him differently from how he is potrayed in the show when a wealth of evidence shows he has done worse. Oh I forgot, killing bug eye monsters is less bad than killing evil humans.

I also don't care if you like the fic or not. I do care that a lot of your criticism is based on things WHICH DIDN'T OCCUR in the story. You know the part where he kills all the humans, the part where he makes things worse, the part where the Na'vi remain primitives because of him. The fact that you make, like one criticism of events which actually did happen in the fic does not absolve you of the above actions.

I love how threads degenerate into 'fucktard fuckwit fuck you' as soon as someone disagrees with somebody.

The Doctor was rather out of character in this, and it introduced nothing new or interesting to the storyline of Avatar whether in a serious way or by way of parody. He caused more death than there would have been to begin with, and things would've resolved on their own just fine otherwise quite honestly, so... yeah. Fucktardwit at me if you like, but this was not a well written story. And Colonel Mustard probably would've had his wits about him enough that seeing what appeared to be a human breathing without a mask would've given him pause, anyway.

Kuroji wrote:I love how threads degenerate into 'fucktard fuckwit fuck you' as soon as someone disagrees with somebody.

And I love how people who bring that fact up clearly think they're so superior to the guys who use profanity.

So what? You should know by now that SDN doesn't mind insults and profanity so long as you make a valid point, or at least some kind of coherent point instead of just insults for the sake of trolling. It's crap to think that just because someone uses insults means their point is suddenly less valid or they're just knuckle-dragging idiots, which is what your clearly contemptuous post is implying. A valid point is a valid point, regardless of whether it's phrased as "I am quite certain this is a valid point, good sir" or as "It's a valid fucking point, you dipshit"

A profane person with a point still has a point. A polite person with an erroneous point is still wrong. It's that simple.

You don't use profanity yourself? Fine. Don't let anyone stop you. But the rules allow for profanity, so you can't stop others from using it either. You don't like it? Too damn bad. Point here is debate, not polite style-over-substance.

Okay, then instead of picking my post apart for the fact that I didn't say that I thought the fic was a fucking piece of shit in those words, why not pick my post apart for what I said other than that one observation about behavior in general?

Because this fic doesn't interest me one way or another and I was calling you out for being a smug douche?

What, you open a post sneering at other people and get all pissy when you get called out for it?

Not really, no. It does amuse me that you think I was trying to be smug, in a sad way. More of people going 'well this fic has X, Y, and Z wrong with it' and the result being an almost immediate lashing out. If you want to insult me personally, I imagine there are better places for you to do it than this thread, but if you want to continue, be my guest.

I got that part moron. What I was criticising is how you downplayed them, as "just trying to keep their heads down" when its clear those the Doctor killed where mercenaries, who if they somehow didn't know what they were getting into at the start, it was drilled into their heads at the very beginning when they arrived on Pandora.

And this invalidates anything I said how?

You could make a decent case that Quaritch deserves to die. I dislike a sudden execution like this as a matter of personal taste, but I won't call it wrong. But at that point, the doctor has made it clear that he has vastly overwhelming firepower. He can persuade everyone else in the base to surrender, easily. Therefore, every kill after that isn't a regrettable necessity to protect the Navi, it's him delivering "justice" to all he encounters.

Hey dumbshit, the Na'vi were refusing those advances anyway. In effect the Doctor changed nothing in terms of their technological development.

That's really the standard you're judging a being with godlike power by? "Didn't make it any worse"?

Where you watching the same movie retard? The humans were already mining some of the Unobtanium. The conflict arose because they got greedy and wanted more. The humans had already tried offering the Na'vi things which they didn't want. Therefore the Doctor didn't ensure the Na'vi would remain primitive at the present, they were already making that choice themselves. Therefore your claim that it was the Doctor's fault is full of shit just like you. Now show some evidence that the Na'vi would have taken up the technology or else concede the point. But I bet you will dodge it right?

If by "Dodge it" you mean "Point out that I don't consider "Failure to make things worse" a suitable standard for a godlike being, yes. The doctor often stands by and watches terrible things happen, because the timeline says they must. The few times he gets involved, it's always to make things better. So why does he break his code of ethics to kill humans...but *not* to help Navi civilization?

The semantic whoring. Whether is a bribe or an offer, the point is the Na'vi were shown to not want it fuckwit. Once again the Doctors actions contributed nothing to leaving them primitive, yet alone primitive FOOOOREVER.

So then the RDA has to leave. Or, the RDA can make a better offer until they find something the Navi *do* want. Either way, the doctor does no harm by allowing the RDA and Navi peaceful contact, as long as the Navi aren't exploited.

Once again they already made the choice in the movie.

So one tribe gets to decide, on behalf of their entire species and all future generations that they don't want anything other star-fairing nations have to offer, to the point they won't even hear those offers.

Idiot.

This does not support your statement that the Doctor made the existing situation worse.

As far as I"m concerned, wanton butchery of humanity combined with making the Navi's exile from the rest of the galaxy permanent constitutes "making it worse."

You have seen the show right?

Conceded. That said, I stand by my previous statement that your fic represents the worst aspects of the doctor. You are right that he does this shit from time to time, but you have an entire fic full of it.

The fact that the queen and her brood were the last of the Racnoss flew over your head? If a nation leaves only one member of an ethnic group alive it would be counted as genocide by the UN.

As far as I am concerned, killing the last Racnoss in the galaxy would consisted of 1 count of murder. That's it.

The Racnoss was his most hated enemy? What the fuck are you smoking boy?

Conceded. Meant to say "Ancient enemy" reflecting the old battle between the Racnoss and the time lords.

Oh I forgot, killing bug eye monsters is less bad than killing evil humans.

How do I say this gently?

Yes.

The circumstances of those two events were completely different. The scale of the damage done isn't even comparable.