StarDestroyer.Net BBS

This is a short story I wrote about a week ago. I was originally going to submit it to a publisher, but I decided it was too short for publication, so I decided to post it on the Internet instead. The story is about a Germanic tribesman who is forced to fight in the Roman arena. Feedback appreciated.

The Barbarian Gladiator

Barbarian. Savage. Uncivilized.

Those were the words the Romans used to describe Ansgar the Germanian. The Romans----who had invaded his land, pelted his village with flaming boulders launched from catapults, butchered most of his people---men, women, and children---and enslaved the survivors--- considered him the real brute. Ansgar could not understand why.

Just as baffling to him were the acts he was now being forced to commit to “enterain” the Roman citizenry. When the Germanian had been brought to Rome in chains, the Romans decided to make him a “gladiator”, a type of warrior who fought wild beasts or other warriors in the arena. Watching these men battle to the death was the Romans’ idea of fun. They loved to see people dying before them---and yet they called Ansgar’s race bloodthirsty and savage.

Ansgar stepped out onto the sandy floor of the arena. He was a large, broad-shouldered man, slightly tanned without being as olive-skinned as the Romans. His blond-haired, blue-eyed head was covered by a bronze helmet with a visor. He wore a linen arm guard and a loincloth and carried a short sword and rectangular shield.

Ansgar’s entrance into the arena was announced by blaring trumpets. The cheering and hooting of thousands of spectators greeted him. Despite knowing that he should feel honored by being the center of so much attention, the Germanian only felt nervous and uncomfortable instead. He feared how such an enthusiastic crowd would react were he to somehow disappoint them.

Ahead of the Germanian stood a swarthy, black-haired Greek. He wore a loincloth and arm guard just like Ansgar’s, but he lacked a helmet or shield and carried a trident instead of a sword. When Ansgar reached this other gladiator, he stared into his dark eyes. He could tell that the Greek felt just as anxious about the coming battle as he felt.

“You don’t want to do this either, do you?” Ansgar whispered to his future opponent.
“Which one of us does?” the Greek replied.

The loud voice of a Roman announcer began counting down from ten to one, and then cried, “Let the fight commence!”

Ansgar was the first to attack, thrusting his sword towards the Greek’s stomach. With a quick sidestep, his foe dodged him. The Germanian then swung his sword from left to right, only to be parried by the shaft of the other gladiator’s trident. Next the Greek drove his own weapon towards Ansgar’s torso. By shifting his shield to cover his front, the Germanian saved himself. Still the trident’s sharp points pierced through the shield. It took a great backward yank for Ansgar to free his shield from the trident.

In a circular arc the Greek swung his weapon, carving three scars into Ansgar’s chest. The Germanian let out an agonized roar, then raised his blade above his head and swung it downwards at his rival. Again his attack was swiftly evaded. With another swing of his sword, this time from right to left, Ansgar slashed the Greek’s belly. As the Greek groaned in pain, Ansgar smashed his shield into him with enough force to knock him onto his back.

The Germanian looked up at the crowd watching him. Most held their fists out and pointed their thumbs downward, a gesture meaning that they wanted him to thrust his blade into the fallen Greek.

“Be a barbarian!” he heard one spectator cry, “Kill him while he’s weak!”

Barbarian... if he were to kill his opponent, he would prove himself to be a barbarian, a savage, an uncivilized person. The very names the Romans called him with contempt, and the very kind of person the Romans believed they could justifiably murder or enslave.

Ansgar threw his sword aside.

“Barbarian?” he cried out to the crowd, “You Romans think I am the barbarian here? You who laid waste to my home, you who massacred and enslaved my people, you who force me to fight and kill merely for your entertainment---you think I am the barbarian? No, you Romans are the real barbarians, and I will not sink to your level by killing him!”

The enormous mass of spectators gasped.

From one seat, the Emperor of Rome stood up and pointed a finger towards Ansgar.

“As the Emperor of Rome, I order you to finish off your opponent!” he exclaimed.

“Never!” Ansgar roared.

“Very well, for your defiance, you will be executed. Guards, take him away!”

On his command, armored guards with swords entered the arena floor and marched towards the Germanian. At first, Ansgar tried repelling them with his sword, but their armor deflected every blow he made. Confiscating his sword and grabbing his arms tightly, the guards dragged him away from the arena.

The Greek gladiator gazed at his former adversary, grateful that his life had been spared and privately agreeing with every word the Germanian had said.

A few things:

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote:Ansgar the Germanian.

It would be "German" or "german tribesmen. Germanian is not really used anymore, especially if he really does come from Germania libera.

The Romans----who had invaded his land, pelted his village with flaming boulders launched from catapults, butchered most of his people---men, women, and children---and enslaved the survivors--- considered him the real brute. Ansgar could not understand why.

Hmmm. If this is during the empire, there really is only one campaign against a nation that did not deserve it (although nowadays people tend to consider that they did) and they certainly knew the roman way of life.

Just as baffling to him were the acts he was now being forced to commit to “enterain” the Roman citizenry.

Why? The german tribes loved prize-fighting.

“You don’t want to do this either, do you?” Ansgar whispered to his future opponent.
“Which one of us does?” the Greek replied.

So Ansgar knows latin and/or greek? Or does the greek somehow know germanic dialects?

Ansgar was the first to attack, thrusting his sword towards the Greek’s stomach. With a quick sidestep, his foe dodged him.

The person with the trident would not sidestep in such a fight as that is only used when the sword is within body's reach. There is no way a Murmillo gets inside a retarius like that at the start of a fight.

Still the trident’s sharp points pierced through the shield.

That shield must suck.

*snip rest of fight*

I think you are approaching this from a wrong level - your opponents do not use their assets very good. After all, the retarius would have used his net at some point during the fight.

The Germanian looked up at the crowd watching him. Most held their fists out and pointed their thumbs downward, a gesture meaning that they wanted him to thrust his blade into the fallen Greek.

We actually do not know if it did, but it has become engrained in popular culture.

The very names the Romans called him with contempt, and the very kind of person the Romans believed they could justifiably murder or enslave.

Wrong.

Ansgar threw his sword aside.

“Barbarian?” he cried out to the crowd, “You Romans think I am the barbarian here? You who laid waste to my home, you who massacred and enslaved my people, you who force me to fight and kill merely for your entertainment---you think I am the barbarian? No, you Romans are the real barbarians, and I will not sink to your level by killing him!”

Now this gets into modern mindsets, but for the sake of the story that might be acceptable.

I read somewhere that the "spare sign," Was to close your hand into a fist (meaning to sheath the sword), and the outstretched thumb meant to sink the blade in. I could be wrong though.

Well, it's a bit short on originality, and the fight scene could use some polish, but it's not bad.

I submit that we've already seen a good reason why the "sword and sandals" genre moved into fantasy worlds so early: the authors were afraid that if they tried to tell the stories they wanted, they'd be eaten alive by berserk classical historians for getting the details wrong...

Thanas wrote:

The very names the Romans called him with contempt, and the very kind of person the Romans believed they could justifiably murder or enslave.

Wrong.

To be fair, this is the musings of a man the Romans just made into a slave. His thoughts at a time like this are more likely to be bitter than accurate.

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, it's a bit short on originality, and the fight scene could use some polish, but it's not bad.

Any suggestion for how to polish the fight scene?

I submit that we've already seen a good reason why the "sword and sandals" genre moved into fantasy worlds so early: the authors were afraid that if they tried to tell the stories they wanted, they'd be eaten alive by berserk classical historians for getting the details wrong...

Yeah, I should have probably made this into a fantasy story with fictional nationalities instead of Germans, Romans, and Greeks.

Well, I think Thanas is on the right track. What you need to do is think more carefully about how the weapons in question and how they are used for lethal effect.

- For example: the trident is the signature weapon of the retiarius. "Retiarius" means "net-man," but this particular retiarius didn't use his net at all; did he even have one?
- He swung his trident as if it was an axe, despite the fact that compared to a jab, that's a slower form of attack that leaves you open and is less likely to actually injure your opponent. A trident is basically a spear, not a poleaxe.
- The trident user made very little effort to control distance in a fight- which is always a major priority. You've heard of pike formations and phalanxes? Those guys beat entire armies by keeping them at bay, making it impossible to close from spear range (where they dominated) to sword range (where their enemies would dominate). The trident is only dangerous at the points; a swordsman who gets too close for the trident wielder to stab him with the points may very well have won the fight right there.

Think of this as choreographed- not for awesomeness, but for realism. You're trying to pick motions for your characters that seem natural, given their preferred tactics and experience. If you don't feel like you can put things together, try to find someone with some experience at simulating hand to hand combat- a recreational society, someone in your community who does stage-fighting for theater, something like that.

This is just a random idea that occurs to me: try physically performing the motions in question, slowly, maybe even going through them with a friend, using sticks or something. At the least, get some experience with what it feels like to swing around an object of the right size and weight: too many amateur fantasy writers have their characters using absurdly massive swords or axes as if they were feather dusters.
__________

It occurs to me that the Greek's bad tactics could be explained by his own lack of experience: Ansgar fought more or less like a real swordsman, but the Greek didn't act like an experienced spear fighter- fast and strong, yes, but not good at achieving the basic goals that a spearman would be aiming for in combat.

With all due respect, it reads completely wrong. The technical errors and so on confirm that impression but they are only icing on the cake. The problem is that when writing the scene (the short length means that this is no more than a scene, it works out as two pages in a paperback book) there is a complete failure to get inside the mind of the main character.

Think about it this way. You are being pushed into an arena to fight for your life. Are you going to be thinking philosophical thoughts about the nature of violence and its perception. No way. You're going to be looking at your opponent and desperately trying to learn as much as you can about him.

How is he holding his weapons? Is he a novice or an experienced professional?
How is he moving? Has he a plan already or is he confused and bewildered?
Is he left- or right-handed? is he keeping to the shadows?
Is the crowd cheering him? If they are, he must have fought and won here before and have a following
How does he respond to the crowd? Is he a showman?
Is he a he? or is he a she? Male and female gladiators had different fighting styles.
Is what I am seeing accurate? Or is he putting on a show for me?
Is his equipment standard? or is he carrying something unusual
If he is carrying non-standard weaponry, then how did he get it? And why?

All of those questions run through the mind and keep running through it. Get the wrong answer to any of them and it's lights-out. And its desperately important for your protagonist because he's the underdog. In secutor versus retiarus, the odds were three to one in favor of the retiarus.

The "we don't want to do this" exchange is also out-of-character. It may or may not be true, but by saying it each man is admitting weakness. When fighting for one's life, that is exactly what one doesn't do. There are a lot of other examples littered throughout the text but those will do; to make the story convincing, you have to get inside the protagonist's head and see the world through his (or her) eyes. If you're telling a story about a WW2 Russian officer, you're seeing the world through the eyes of a Russian brought up under the communist system and probably a communist. The story has to reflect that. If your point of view character is a female prostitute, the story has to reflect how she sees the world and the people she interacts with. Here, you're telling a story about an ancient-times gladiator but you are thinking and seeing the world with the mind and through the eyes of a 21st century person. The result is a massive culture clash.

The same really applies to the fight scene as a whole. It's robotic, a catalog of blows given and received with no emphasis on how the protagonist feels about them or what his reactions are. This is a point of view problem. When writing a scene, one starts off seeing it through the eyes of a specific person. As you did here. So, the story of the fight should have been told through the eyes of that person. What does he see? What does he feel? How does he decide what he will do next? Is he desperate or confident? Do his wounds hurt? Are they limiting his movement? Is his sweat trickling into his eyes? Most critical of all, what the hell is this retiarus up to? For a retiarus, his trident is his defensive weapon - its his equivalent of the secutor's shield. The offensive weapon of a retiarus is his net and the guy doesn't use it at all. This is so weird it defies rational belief. So why is he doing it?

The end section is corny and hackneyed; about as cliched as you can get. Again, it fails to see the world through the eyes of the protagonist. He's a gladiator, he's just won. The last thing he's going to do is give a deep philosophical speech to the crowd. If he felt like it, he might tell them to do the Roman equivalent of 'take a flying fuck at a rolling donut' but the speech quoted? Not a chance. And the reaction of the Emperor is out of the ballpark as well. He's the Emperor for heaven's sake. He's not going to be seen to be upset over defiance from a single gladiator. It's beneath his dignity and a sign of weakness he can't afford. He'll just stare coldly at him and give the order "shoot him down". And that will be that.

So, when writing a scene like this, select your viewpoint and stick with it. Put yourself in the man's head and see through his eyes - not your eyes. Think on his background and experience and ask yourself, how would this man see the world? And then write from that perspective. Above all, ask yourself how this character this person, the one you have created, will react. What sort of person is he? How will that affect what he does? Above all, make the story fit the era. To show how your story fails in this respect, do a global replacecemnt of the word "gladiator" with "boxer" and exchange "sword" for "punch". It reads just as well (or just as badly) as an account of a boxing match as it does of a gladiatoral fight.

Read the story written by the Duchess of Zeon "The Action of 5 Jyaistha (Kaetjhasti)." That's a perfect example of a story that fits the era. It's superbly well-written, the point of view is consistent throughout, its written in the style and using the thoughts and attitudes that were prevalent in that era. It rings so true, one forgets the unlikeliness of the basic premise and instead reads the story of a naval battle as if it was happening in front of the reader. Take the setting-specific details out and it would pass as an authentic account of a naval engagement of the era.

Read the story written by the Duchess of Zeon "The Action of 5 Jyaistha (Kaetjhasti)." That's a perfect example of a story that fits the era. It's superbly well-written, the point of view is consistent throughout, its written in the style and using the thoughts and attitudes that were prevalent in that era. It rings so true, one forgets the unlikeliness of the basic premise and instead reads the story of a naval battle as if it was happening in front of the reader. Take the setting-specific details out and it would pass as an authentic account of a naval engagement of the era.

Have a link to the story in question?

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote: Have a link to the story in question?

It's on this site - on this page in fact - HERE

I think that a lot of the problems Stuart described are very important, but they can be improved on with practice. Have you written things like this before elsewhere?

Stuart wrote:With all due respect, it reads completely wrong. The technical errors and so on confirm that impression but they are only icing on the cake. The problem is that when writing the scene (the short length means that this is no more than a scene, it works out as two pages in a paperback book) there is a complete failure to get inside the mind of the main character.

Think about it this way. You are being pushed into an arena to fight for your life. Are you going to be thinking philosophical thoughts about the nature of violence and its perception. No way. You're going to be looking at your opponent and desperately trying to learn as much as you can about him.

Gack, you're right. That's way more important than what I was talking about, and it managed to slip right under my radar.

Then again, you're the novelist, so I suppose it figures.

Most critical of all, what the hell is this retiarus up to? For a retiarus, his trident is his defensive weapon - its his equivalent of the secutor's shield. The offensive weapon of a retiarus is his net and the guy doesn't use it at all. This is so weird it defies rational belief. So why is he doing it?

Speculatively, he's a flaming incompetent excuse for a retiarus, with no popular following because if he'd ever been in the arena before against opposition with any talent, he'd have been carved like a roast. How that dovetails with him being in the greatest Roman arena, rather than being a minor, short-lived exhibit in some provincial town... no idea.

Simon_Jester wrote:Speculatively, he's a flaming incompetent excuse for a retiarus, with no popular following because if he'd ever been in the arena before against opposition with any talent, he'd have been carved like a roast. How that dovetails with him being in the greatest Roman arena, rather than being a minor, short-lived exhibit in some provincial town... no idea.

Exactly; (I love the phrase "he'd have been carved like a roast"; I'll steal that ). There's no way that a show with two fumbling prats like this would have been put on in front of the Emperor. Or, if it was, the next bout would have been between a professional gladiator and the guy who organized the program. Pitching an idiot up against a trained gladiator was a common means of execution.

This would have been a show in some small provincial town with (at best) the local magistrate in attendance. It's unlikely there would have been a true retiarus present; using net and trident was a skilled artform (the net, by the way, had lead-weighted edges and it made a vicious, long-reaching club). Might have been some poor dumb cluck got the net and trident pushed into his hands before being shoved out on to the sand but we can't tell from the story. Another by-the-way, the death rate in professional gladiators was surprisingly low; very few trained gladiator vs trained gladiator engagements were fights to the death. Trained gladiators were too expensive to be chucked away like that. Most of the "to the death" battles were thinly-disguised executions. This one would be simply a way of getting rid of some unwanted prisoners.

Professional gladiators had fan clubs and followings that went around from arena to arena to see their hero fight. It was quite an interesting social set up and quite different from the way it's usually portrayed. Woman gladiators mostly fought from chariots but they were also feared retiarii. I picked up one known female gladiator (Achillea) as a character in TBO.

Another thing - based on when the story was playing, it would have been uncommon for tribesmen to be shoved into the arena. We know of some leaders being forced to fight to the death or been thrown to the wolves, but ordinary tribesmen were usually just sold as slaves. Furthermore, if this is playing during the first century and Ansgar is a typical german, he probably would have no clue how to handle a sword, because he would never have owned one.

The name Ansgar is also odd for the time period, maybe one should better be using a typical german name like Segimer.

Thanas wrote:Another thing - based on when the story was playing, it would have been uncommon for tribesmen to be shoved into the arena. We know of some leaders being forced to fight to the death or been thrown to the wolves, but ordinary tribesmen were usually just sold as slaves.

Perhaps they tried and nobody wanted him Although I suspect in that case, he'd have been sent off to a Latifunda and worked to death. Perhaps in this case it was a comedy act; two utterly incompetent buffoons flailing away at each other. Then, the next act would have been two professionals showing how to do it properly.

Furthermore, if this is playing during the first century and Ansgar is a typical german, he probably would have no clue how to handle a sword, because he would never have owned one.

Interesting; I hadn't thought of that. What would he have carried?

The name Ansgar is also odd for the time period, maybe one should better be using a typical german name like Segimer.

Names are a real pest; what I do is that I have lists from various eras and countries and I take attractive-sounding combinations out. I also try and match the meaning of names to the character and their role. For example, in a soon-appearing TBO story, one of the characters is called Olinda - her role and place in the story is reflected by her name "defender of the land". Making names up from whole cloth rarely has a happy ending.

Stuart wrote:Perhaps they tried and nobody wanted him Although I suspect in that case, he'd have been sent off to a Latifunda and worked to death. Perhaps in this case it was a comedy act; two utterly incompetent buffoons flailing away at each other. Then, the next act would have been two professionals showing how to do it properly.

No, that would not have been done. Comedy acts were not like that (comedy acts being rather other things, like midgets fighting each other or a bull raping a woman or something like that). Having people dress up as gladiators and then having them made like a comedy act would be a shame to the lanista. For the romans differentiated social class by dress, thus someone dressed like a gladiator would have to act like one. (This is also the criticism levelled at Emperors when dressing as greeks or gladiators, something most people do not get when reading the sources and wondering why the emperor dressing funny is such a bad thing. It is a religious and social sacrilege).

Furthermore, if this is playing during the first century and Ansgar is a typical german, he probably would have no clue how to handle a sword, because he would never have owned one.

Interesting; I hadn't thought of that. What would he have carried?

Depending on the tribal and local custom, either throwing spears, an axe, a knife/dagger, a wooden shield, no helmet or a leather cap, a short bow. Most likely however a combination of a long spear, a round wooden shield, no helmet, one or two throwing spears and a dagger, if he could afford to own one, otherwise a knife or a short axe.

The name Ansgar is also odd for the time period, maybe one should better be using a typical german name like Segimer.

Names are a real pest; what I do is that I have lists from various eras and countries and I take attractive-sounding combinations out. I also try and match the meaning of names to the character and their role. For example, in a soon-appearing TBO story, one of the characters is called Olinda - her role and place in the story is reflected by her name "defender of the land". Making names up from whole cloth rarely has a happy ending.

Yesh, that is true. Ansgar, for example, is predominantly found in the 8th-10th centuries, under the swedish influence.

Stuart wrote:Exactly; (I love the phrase "he'd have been carved like a roast"; I'll steal that ).

I in turn stole it from somewhere, but I can't remember where... sigh. Possibly Glory Road by Robert A. Heinlein, but I'm not sure.

There's no way that a show with two fumbling prats like this would have been put on in front of the Emperor. Or, if it was, the next bout would have been between a professional gladiator and the guy who organized the program. Pitching an idiot up against a trained gladiator was a common means of execution.

I'm not sure Ansgar was a fumbling prat. He seemed to do a decent job in terms of actual performance, except for failing to stop that bizarre trident swipe. Yes, he isn't written as thinking like an experienced warrior, but that's a problem with the writing, not the character.

Another by-the-way, the death rate in professional gladiators was surprisingly low; very few trained gladiator vs trained gladiator engagements were fights to the death. Trained gladiators were too expensive to be chucked away like that. Most of the "to the death" battles were thinly-disguised executions. This one would be simply a way of getting rid of some unwanted prisoners.

Seems easy enough to me: the "retiarus" was a random guy scheduled to be executed, while Ansgar the "secutor" was (from the point of view of the fight organizer) a mouthy and unreliable slave who'd be little loss but who might have the makings of a decent gladiator. Might.

Still no way this should be happening in the Colosseum, though. Ancient Rome was quite experienced in putting on spectacles, and the entertainment in the Colosseum was generally the best entertainment they could come up with, given their definition of "entertaining."

Something like this would be like having a couple of husky high schoolers shoved out onto the field in the middle of the Super Bowl, then having one of them go into a nervous breakdown and start flinging shit at the people in the boxes. It's just not credible; that kind of people wouldn't be there, especially if there was any reasonable chance of one of them acting out that way.

Thanas wrote:Another thing - based on when the story was playing, it would have been uncommon for tribesmen to be shoved into the arena. We know of some leaders being forced to fight to the death or been thrown to the wolves, but ordinary tribesmen were usually just sold as slaves. Furthermore, if this is playing during the first century and Ansgar is a typical german, he probably would have no clue how to handle a sword, because he would never have owned one.

No reason to assume he was typical; I figured him for some sort of very minor chieftain, the sort of people that get called the "nobility" in English translations of Caesar's commentaries (and yes, of the Germans not the Gauls, you know what I mean). That might help to explain why he views the whole affair as a massive personal insult, which is the closest approximation I can think of to the thoughts and words he expresses that would make sense in contemporary context.

Thanas wrote: No, that would not have been done. Comedy acts were not like that (comedy acts being rather other things, like midgets fighting each other or a bull raping a woman or something like that). Having people dress up as gladiators and then having them made like a comedy act would be a shame to the lanista. For the romans differentiated social class by dress, thus someone dressed like a gladiator would have to act like one. (This is also the criticism levelled at Emperors when dressing as greeks or gladiators, something most people do not get when reading the sources and wondering why the emperor dressing funny is such a bad thing. It is a religious and social sacrilege).

A good point and I happily concede that issue. If we assume that this was being held in some minor arena in the back end of nowhere (and the "emperor" was just the local magistrate if that), how about this being some sort of trial-by-elimination process. The slaves nobody wanted (in this case for being to mouthy and disruptive) get pushed on to the sand to see if any of them have potential to be a gladiator. That way, the truly useless get killed, the local population get an afternoon's entertainment and the lanista may get a couple of possible recruits for formal training.

Simon_Jester wrote:I'm not sure Ansgar was a fumbling prat. He seemed to do a decent job in terms of actual performance, except for failing to stop that bizarre trident swipe. Yes, he isn't written as thinking like an experienced warrior, but that's a problem with the writing, not the character.

Not really; the lady who taught me to fence would describe it as "waggling his sword". That trident swipe was truly bizarre though; I honestly can't think of any reason why somebody would use a thrusting weapon like that. An experienced or even semi-competent swordsman would have taken him out real fast. All he had to do was get past that net and since the retiarus wasn't using it (perhaps he thought it was a cloak or something?), that part of the fight had already been conceded.

Stuart wrote:

simon_jester wrote:I'm not sure Ansgar was a fumbling prat. He seemed to do a decent job in terms of actual performance, except for failing to stop that bizarre trident swipe. Yes, he isn't written as thinking like an experienced warrior, but that's a problem with the writing, not the character.

Not really; the lady who taught me to fence would describe it as "waggling his sword".

I see what you mean. My practical swordfighting knowledge is very slim; I gave up on fencing lessons in a hurry. Looking over the fight again, it does seem to be sort of like the equivalent of Flynning for something heavier than a foil. Maybe the sword isn't something he's familiar with, as Thanas suggested, after all?

EDIT: Also, I like being capitalized; it's not as if I'm e. e. cummings or anything...

Simon_Jester wrote:I see what you mean. My practical swordfighting knowledge is very slim; I gave up on fencing lessons in a hurry. Looking over the fight again, it does seem to be sort of like the equivalent of Flynning for something heavier than a foil. Maybe the sword isn't something he's familiar with, as Thanas suggested, after all? EDIT: Also, I like being capitalized; it's not as if I'm e. e. cummings or anything...

Fixed the capitalization. Sorry about that. It certainly reads like Ansgar had never handled a sword before. The idea of swinging it over his head when facing a man with a thrusting weapon that outreaches him by at least an arm's length is risible. It's asking for a thrust to the gut. A lot of the actions there are mechanically impossible anyway. If the secutor is within sword-swinging range of the retiarus, the prongs of the trident will be at least a foot behind him. All Secutor has to do is drop his shield arm and the trident is trapped. Then, the battle is precisely one sword thrust away from being over. Reach is absolutely critical in a swordfight. So much so that women gladiators are believed to have used the spatha when fighting men rather than the shorter gladius. That's also why rapier will usually beat katana by the way. Its also why retiarus is so highly favored; if it goes badly, all he has to do is to keep backing up and use the trident to keep secutor at a safe distance. Then wait for something to develop (this is called "letting the situation mature") like the secutor tripping over something or the retiarus recovering his net.

So, all the infighting described simply couldn't take place; secutor is already inside the trident's reach and the points are behind him. The trident is trapped on his left side and secutor is thrusting with his right. Retiarus is utterly defenseless, there is no way he can parry or counterthrust.

Stuart wrote:A good point and I happily concede that issue. If we assume that this was being held in some minor arena in the back end of nowhere (and the "emperor" was just the local magistrate if that),

Then how do you get a greek slave there? Greece was never a popular slave-farming territory and it is extremely unlikely that a greek slave would be near the end of the empire, especially not in Germany, unless he was a servant. But greek servants were very highly priced and one would not waste them in the arena.

how about this being some sort of trial-by-elimination process. The slaves nobody wanted (in this case for being to mouthy and disruptive) get pushed on to the sand to see if any of them have potential to be a gladiator. That way, the truly useless get killed, the local population get an afternoon's entertainment and the lanista may get a couple of possible recruits for formal training.

Maybe. However, it would make far more sense to have a trial by elimination with wooden weapons and simply sell the survivors to the mines. Disruptive slaves got sent to the mines or, when it was allowed, were simply castrated/whipped and then put back to work. A slave was extremely valuable. If this is a local magistrate, he would not simply throw something away that cost months of wages of the typical worker.

Unless he could afford to and had a grudge against a particular slave, but in that case I am wondering why the death was not more humiliating. For example, we have one medaillon that describes a truly humiliating defeat - after being defeated, the opponent was then anally raped by the victor. Or slaves were fed to sea snakes or something like that. It might be that the magistrate thought that this would be enough, but a quick death in the arena does not really fulfill the purpose of being a signal to the other slaves, for they would not be watching (plus, a quick death being not particularly threatening to slaves who see death every day in their work/life, Roman culture was far more accustomed to death than we are today). In my opinion it is far more likely a mouthy slave was either simply crucified (thus serving as a signal for several days/weeks before dieing), tortured or subjected to other unpleasant things.

Furthermore, to have this work, the greek slave would not have been apprised and sold/put to work already. It is very unlikely a magistrate from greece would not take slaves with him he would not trust.

Thanas wrote:Then how do you get a greek slave there? Greece was never a popular slave-farming territory and it is extremely unlikely that a greek slave would be near the end of the empire, especially not in Germany, unless he was a servant. But greek servants were very highly priced and one would not waste them in the arena.

Possibly a provincial town in an area close enough to Greece proper that there would be a substantial number of people from the Greek lower classes in the vicinity simply from random diffusion?

Maybe "Ansgar" already passed a bout with wooden weapons, partly by luck? And for his next trick he's being used to execute a condemned criminal (the Greek, who has even less idea of how to fight with his weapons than Ansgar does), only Ansgar has some kind of bizarre nervous breakdown after the fight for some unlikely reason?

Simon_Jester wrote:

Thanas wrote:Then how do you get a greek slave there? Greece was never a popular slave-farming territory and it is extremely unlikely that a greek slave would be near the end of the empire, especially not in Germany, unless he was a servant. But greek servants were very highly priced and one would not waste them in the arena.

Possibly a provincial town in an area close enough to Greece proper that there would be a substantial number of people from the Greek lower classes in the vicinity simply from random diffusion?

That makes no sense - how do you get freshly captured germans there then?

Maybe "Ansgar" already passed a bout with wooden weapons, partly by luck?

Then he would have been trained, which kinda negates the rest of your post.

Thanas wrote: Then how do you get a greek slave there? Greece was never a popular slave-farming territory and it is extremely unlikely that a greek slave would be near the end of the empire, especially not in Germany, unless he was a servant. But greek servants were very highly priced and one would not waste them in the arena.

Exactly; the whole thing does not hang together on social grounds. Greek servants/slaves wer, as you say, the cream of the crop and highly prized. There's no conceivable way that one would end up as sword-meat in the arena. If one did something bad enough to get there, they would have a much more interesting way out than just gutted by a gladius. Nope, can't see any way of making it work.

Maybe. However, it would make far more sense to have a trial by elimination with wooden weapons and simply sell the survivors to the mines. Disruptive slaves got sent to the mines or, when it was allowed, were simply castrated/whipped and then put back to work. A slave was extremely valuable. If this is a local magistrate, he would not simply throw something away that cost months of wages of the typical worker.

All too true. The more we look at this, the more apparent it is that the basic situation is simply implausible.

Sorry, Vastatosaurus Rex, we've really tried to help. The basic story is too flawed historically and textually to salvage. It really needs a complete rewrite from ground zero. Don't worry too much about it; most first-draft stories need extensive rewriting.

Thanas wrote:That makes no sense - how do you get freshly captured germans there then?

Thinking about the geography, I see your point. How much did lower-class Greeks (not the type who would be valuable as tutors and the like) get around during that era? Did you see them in parts of the Empire remote from Greece but relatively closer to Germany? Or were they pretty much not found outside of Greece proper?

Simon_Jester wrote:

Thanas wrote:That makes no sense - how do you get freshly captured germans there then?

Thinking about the geography, I see your point. How much did lower-class Greeks (not the type who would be valuable as tutors and the like) get around during that era? Did you see them in parts of the Empire remote from Greece but relatively closer to Germany? Or were they pretty much not found outside of Greece proper?

The problem here is defining what a greek is, however, most greek settlements can be found in either Greece, asia minor or the levant. The greeks never settled en masse in Pannonia, the Illyricum or the danube regions because peoples hostile to them (the Illyrians, the thracians, the dacians etc) lived there during the time of the greek expansion. Some individual greeks might have settled in Gaul/Germania as merchants, but these would not end up as slaves then. One way might be that they were sold due to debt, but again, you would not throw them away in the arena and debt-slaves were protected by law from such treatment.

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote:
Ahead of the Germanian stood a swarthy, black-haired Greek. He wore a loincloth and arm guard just like Ansgar’s, but he lacked a helmet or shield and carried a trident instead of a sword. When Ansgar reached this other gladiator, he stared into his dark eyes. He could tell that the Greek felt just as anxious about the coming battle as he felt.

“You don’t want to do this either, do you?” Ansgar whispered haltingly, [unsure of his Latin]. His future opponent shrugged.
“Which one of us does?” the Greek replied.

I'm not sure how they both speak the same language, especially if the German were newly captured. Took the opportunity to insert a suggestion, to reduce the 'everyone speaks perfect English' trope.

....
Ansgar threw his sword aside.
.....


“Never!” Ansgar roared.

“Very well, for your defiance, you will be executed. Guards, take him away!”

On his command, armored guards with swords and [large shields] entered the arena floor and marched towards the Germanian. At [once, Ansgar dove for his discarded weapon. Rising with his sword, he lashed out impotently -] their armor deflected every blow he made. Confiscating his sword and grabbing his arms tightly, the guards dragged him away from the arena.

No explanation as to how he got his sword back; a missed chance for more action.

Took the liberty to offer a quick and rewrite to give the general idea. The word 'repelling', for example, doesn't conjure the imagery and nuances needed for this particular swordfight scene.

Added the shields because a technique modern police use with their riot shields is to crowd an opponent, blocking out attacks while simultaneously battering down and pinning the suspect, but I didn't write in their use.

Just my opinions, and this is certainly better than anything I could write.