StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I don't have a working title for this yet, as I'm winging this story rather than having planned out the whole plot, but the idea behind it was, "What if a certain popular superhero got a girlfriend?" Of course, it'll expand far beyond that initial idea.

##

“That’s a nice suit you’ve got on, Master Bruce,” Alfred said to me as I exited my bedroom, “Out on another date with Ms. Collins?”

“Yes,” I replied, “We’re going to Celestino’s tonight. This time, though, it won’t be like any other date. Tonight’s going to be special.”

“How come?”

I pulled out the little velvet case from my pocket and opened it before Alfred, showing the diamond ring inside. It wasn’t like your ordinary diamond ring with just one diamond---it had multiple diamonds arranged together to form the shape of a bat.

“By God, that’s a beautiful ring!” Alfred said, “I bet she’ll be absolutely elated to see it… but don’t you think the bat symbol might, uh, give something away?”

“Alfred, I can’t hide the truth from Sierra any longer. I love her too much to keep any more secrets from her.”

“It’s not so much her knowing that concerns me. It’s that someone else might see the ring on her and figure your identity out.”

“That assumes they recognize her as my significant other.”

“Of course they’ll recognize her. Don’t you realize how well-known you are, Master Bruce? Any woman betrothed to you will have her face on almost every magazine and tabloid in Gotham! Everyone will know what she looks like!”

“Hmm…you have a good point. Still, I could always tell people that the reason I chose a bat symbol is because I’m fond of bats.”

“I suppose that could work. Anyway, I wish you good luck on your proposal. Please tell me how it goes.”

##

I don’t usually eat at Celestino’s. It’s a very expensive restaurant, even for a rich guy like me. However, as I said, this was a special night for both Sierra and I, so I didn’t mind the price.

I’ve been with Sierra for over two years now. She’s a beautiful young African-American woman who works as a paleontologist at the Gotham Natural History Museum. She mostly does lab work there instead of going out on digs, but her work is still important. She’s helped clean up and prepare for display many of the museum’s fossils. She’s also a very good person to talk to---practically all my knowledge on things prehistoric comes from her.

While we were waiting for our food to be prepared that night, the dominant conversation topic between us was a Tyrannosaurus rex skeleton that had recently been dug up in northern Mexico and was going to be on display in the museum two months from now. The T. Rex itself was quite large for its species, about forty-two feet long. As if that was not impressive enough, the exhibit was going to be quite grand---it would take up an entire room and feature not only the skeleton, but also a life-size sculpture and some faux tropical vegetation. I could tell it was going to be awesome…but it wasn’t quite as exciting as what I was preparing to do.

It was not until after our food had finally arrived that I changed the topic.

“Sierra, we’ve been together for over two years, and in that time, I’ve come to admire you not only for your physical beauty, but also your intelligence and compassion. I have never met a woman as wonderful as you before, and I want to spend the rest of my life with you. Therefore, Sierra, I want to ask you…”

I got out of my chair, kneeled down, pulled out the velvet box, and presented her the ring.

“…will you marry me?”

Sierra gasped as hard as any woman could.

“Yes…yes I will, Bruce. Of course I’ll marry you---but, why a bat symbol?”

I sighed. “Sierra, there’s something you really need to know. I’ll show you back at my mansion.”

“Why can’t you just tell me now?”

“Promise me you won’t tell anyone else. It should be a secret between us.”

She nodded. I moved my head so that my mouth was just a few inches away from her ear and whispered:

“I’m the goddamned Batman.”

V. Rex, the basic premise is interesting, but there are some big problems with your characterization and your portrayal of the setting.

1) Batman has really big issues with the idea of revealing his identity to anyone. Historically this has been a major problem with his love life: he can't bring himself to explain what he's been up to after hours. For him to reveal this to his intended fiancée would be something he'd only decide to do after a major, painful struggle. As I understand it, he has dumped girlfriends in the past precisely because he didn't want to let them into his "real" life as Batman.

2) Batman is driven. That is one of his defining character traits. He works as hard as he can practically all the time, and his main objective is crime-fighting. To the point where everything else in his life takes a back seat to going out after dark and beating hardened criminals to a pulp with his fists. This is another major problem with his love life, and one that any story about Mr. Wayne's relationships should address. He's not like normal people in this respect: he isn't going to give up fighting crime even for the woman he loves. He probably won't even trade in his crimefighting operation because in a real sense he loved crimefighting first.

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote:“That’s a nice suit you’ve got on, Master Bruce,” Alfred said to me as I exited my bedroom, “Out on another date with Ms. Collins?”
“Yes,” I replied, “We’re going to Celestino’s tonight. This time, though, it won’t be like any other date. Tonight’s going to be special.”
“How come?”

Here, we run into another difficulty. Alfred is the archetypal butler: the gentleman's gentleman.

Your Alfred dialogue is... not very convincing. Alfred would not speak so informally, so colloquially. For Alfred to ask "how come?" or "I bet" would be almost impossible to explain.

“It’s not so much her knowing that concerns me. It’s that someone else might see the ring on her and figure your identity out.”
“That assumes they recognize her as my significant other.”

And... another problem. Batman is supposed to be smarter than hell. World's greatest detective and all that. He'll have thought this through. He shouldn't need Alfred to tell him that he's a well known celebrity, unless he's been walking around all those former dinners with his eyes tight shut and his fingers in his ears.

“Hmm…you have a good point. Still, I could always tell people that the reason I chose a bat symbol is because I’m fond of bats.”

In GOTHAM? I mean, come on, the gossip columnists would be all over this.

I don’t usually eat at Celestino’s. It’s a very expensive restaurant, even for a rich guy like me. However, as I said, this was a special night for both Sierra and I, so I didn’t mind the price.

...Dude. Bruce Wayne is a freaking billionaire. He's like Bill Gates; he's orders of magnitude richer than other people who are themselves rich enough to live in mansions and own private jets and stuff. Any place he can't afford to eat at regularly, nobody else on Earth can afford to eat at.

I’ve been with Sierra for over two years now. She’s a beautiful young African-American woman who works as a paleontologist at the Gotham Natural History Museum. She mostly does lab work there instead of going out on digs, but her work is still important. She’s helped clean up and prepare for display many of the museum’s fossils. She’s also a very good person to talk to---practically all my knowledge on things prehistoric comes from her.

Once again, Batman is extremely intelligent; he is a master of many subjects. He might not have specifically studied paleontology, but he'd know far more than almost anyone who isn't a high-level specialist in the field already.

Your Bruce Wayne simply does not match up to the caliber of man who could be Batman: he isn't smart, he isn't knowledgeable, he isn't focused.

“I’m the goddamned Batman.”

Ah... you might want to actually have Wayne not give the secret away. Especially not that way, since it's a sort of cheesy inside joke within the Batman mythology, a product of Frank Miller's decision to write Batman as a lunatic a few years back.

Simon_Jester wrote:1) Batman has really big issues with the idea of revealing his identity to anyone. Historically this has been a major problem with his love life: he can't bring himself to explain what he's been up to after hours. For him to reveal this to his intended fiancée would be something he'd only decide to do after a major, painful struggle. As I understand it, he has dumped girlfriends in the past precisely because he didn't want to let them into his "real" life as Batman.

That's odd, because a lot of superheroes with secret identities have gotten away with regular girlfriends. Spiderman and Superman, for instance. Is there something about Batman's character that makes him different?

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote:That's odd, because a lot of superheroes with secret identities have gotten away with regular girlfriends. Spiderman and Superman, for instance. Is there something about Batman's character that makes him different?

Yes. I'd think this would be fairly obvious, but here goes:

Batman has a very high profile public identity. This increases the risk he takes of exposure, because it means that paparazzi types will be after him all the time. You know the coverage celebrities get, where every time they hiccup the tabloids scream? Like that.

Batman has more psychological issues than most other superheroes. His desire to be a hero has consumed practically his entire life, even though he has a much greater innate potential to live a happy life than, say, Peter Parker. Peter Parker is a geek, albeit a fairly successful and well adjusted one. Bruce Wayne is a billionaire playboy who can have practically anything he wants any time he wants it.

It's easy to see why Parker put on the mask: adventure, excitement, the knowledge that you're doing good, having crowds of admirers. But Wayne could have all those things without a costume, because he's that rich. He could adventure like Richard Branson, donate enough money to charity to feed and clothe a small Third World country, and he'd practically have to fend off crowds of admirers with a stick. All at a far, far smaller risk to his own life and limb.

What kind of man walks away from the life Wayne could live if he wanted to in order to go wandering the streets at night and beating up armed criminals? Just how dominated is he by the desire to avenge his parents' death on the entire criminal underworld? How compulsive must he be about his lifestyle?

What kind of happy relationship can such a man have, except with a person almost as strange as he is?

Simon_Jester wrote:What kind of happy relationship can such a man have, except with a person almost as strange as he is?

Hmm...that gives me an idea for how Sierra's character can be reworked.

Well, you see, there's a problem. The "Batman's girlfriend is as crazy as he is" slot is already taken:

Catwoman.

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, you see, there's a problem. The "Batman's girlfriend is as crazy as he is" slot is already taken:

Catwoman.

IIRC, Catwoman is an antagonist, not Batman's girlfriend.

Catwoman is an antagonist, but she's also a "love interest" in the classic fictional sense. Lots of (usually unresolved) romantic tension. She and Batman have a LOT in common; the main difference between the characters is simply that they operate on opposite sides of the law.

...Are you sure you know enough about Batman to write convincing Batman stories?

Vasty, might I respectfully give you something to think about here?

Before you write a story using an existing character, you have to know that character intimately and be familiar with his/her motivations. You're not painting on a clean canvas, you're cutting and pasting a character from somewhere else and your story has to be consistent with that adopted character. You have zero flexibility in how that character thinks, acts and behaves.

To give you an example; somebody once wrote a story in my TBOverse (a very good one as it happened). But, early on, there was a scene where one character (Lillith) was ready to "leap into action". Now, Lillith isn't going to leap anywhere, she has crippled feet and even walking is painful for her. When action starts, she takes off in the opposite direction, her fundamental character is that of a librarian and record-keeper. On both physical and character grounds, she will not get into a fight.

In one of your earlier stories (about some golden hyenas IIRC) you started off by making the central character Beowulf, then you had second thoughts and changed it to an original (Ogdar) then changed it back to Beowulf. Yet never once did you actually change the characterization or the story That tells you something very important; your story protagonist didn't have a character, it was just a name on a piece of paper. One dimensional. It didn't matter who the character was or what his name was, he had no distinguising features one way or the other. That's a deadly flaw. Remember a story is about people; if the characters don't have any character, you don't have a story.

Here, you've taken an existing character with a very rich and well-defined back-story, one that is already laid down in great detail. You've then pissed all over it. If you don't stick with the character that already exists, why are you using the character's name? This story isn't about Batman in any of the characters incarnations; its about a totally different character that you've called Batman. Why not charge the name to "The Pink Gerbil" since it is an original character.

Another thing, you need to do research. You can't go writing about things you know nothing about and hope to be taken seriously. Your lack of research has come out in everything you write. In Barbarian Gladiator, you had no idea how weapons are used or the mentality of people who fight for a living. Here, you have no idea about the character of teh person you're writing about. In Antarcticans you didn't even know what powered ships in the 1940s (and that left me with my jaw hanging open).

So, two things to concentrate on. One, get your character defined and settled before you start writing. Second. Do the research. Both will improve your work immensely.

Thank you for the advice, Stuart, even if it was harsh and critical of my earlier work.

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:1) Batman has really big issues with the idea of revealing his identity to anyone. Historically this has been a major problem with his love life: he can't bring himself to explain what he's been up to after hours. For him to reveal this to his intended fiancée would be something he'd only decide to do after a major, painful struggle. As I understand it, he has dumped girlfriends in the past precisely because he didn't want to let them into his "real" life as Batman.

That's odd, because a lot of superheroes with secret identities have gotten away with regular girlfriends. Spiderman and Superman, for instance. Is there something about Batman's character that makes him different?

To reiterate what has already been said . . . if you're going to write stories about other peoples' characters, (or about anything in general) you must first do the research. This question you've asked is one that someone who is writing Batman fiction shouldn't have to ask after having already posted the first chapter. Batman has Issues. Batman even admits that he has relationship-killing Issues, to a woman who expresses romantic interest towards him, knows his secret identity, and is just as strange as he is (Wonder Woman in the animated Justice League continuity.)

IIRC, Catwoman is an antagonist, not Batman's girlfriend.

How much Batman material have you watched or read? As has been stated, there's substantial unresolved romantic tension between the two characters. Hell, this was a significant sub-plot in a Batman movie (Batman Returns starring Michael Keaton and Michelle Pfeiffer. Though that film may, in fact, be before your time (as it came out in 1992.))

Thank you for the advice, Stuart, even if it was harsh and critical of my earlier work.

If you persist in writing, you'll find out that the best advice on written work is, often, critical advice. Especially if the advice given has to do with fundamental flaws, such as those in a story's basic framework or characterization. Doubly-so, if you're playing in someone else's sandbox and the framework and characterization have already been laid out for you.

I'd like to give another example on some of Stuart's points, using the board's great common frame of reference: Star Wars.

Imagine someone is writing a story that features Jabba the Hutt. There's a scene where we are seeing the situation from Jabba's point of view, and Jabba is feeling guilty over all the harm his criminal activities do.

BOOM! Stop the train, because we've just derailed the character. I mean, Jabba the Hutt is not a soft-hearted giant slug. Quite the opposite. Every moment we see him on screen makes it obvious that he is a ruthless crime lord who smuggles drugs on a grand scale, calls in deadly bounty hunters to take down people who fail or displease him, and throws his enemies to be torn apart by wild beasts with a hearty "Ho ho ho!" of enjoyment. Hell, he even throws inadequate dancing girls to be torn apart by wild beasts with a hearty "Ho ho ho!"

And if you manage to really tick Jabba off? He will use your frozen corpse as a conversation piece. Jabba is a complete, thoroughgoing bastard, tough-minded almost beyond belief and as ruthless and deadly as a viper.

It is not at all plausible for Jabba to be thinking "I wish I didn't have to hurt these innocent people." He doesn't care, even though you or I would. It's taking the thoughts of some other person and jamming them into Jabba's head... which is particularly bad given Jabba's proven resistance to thinking what other people want him to think.

Now, some other crime lord might honestly be a little torn up about the fact that someone's little girl got killed in a crossfire between his men and people from a rival gang. Or that the neighborhood is falling apart because everyone is addicted to the drugs he sells.

But Jabba the Hutt? No way.

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Batman even admits that he has relationship-killing Issues, to a woman who expresses romantic interest towards him, knows his secret identity, and is just as strange as he is (Wonder Woman in the animated Justice League continuity.)

I'd heard of that. Wonder Woman basically laughs her ass off, because the idea that any of Batman's enemies would present much of a threat to her is kind of ridiculous. I'm not sure whether anything like a relationship actually develops; I'm guessing "no."

EDIT: Now the idea here has some potential. We can sanely ask the question: What if Batman really loved a woman and honestly thought it was safe to bring her into his life? That's not unprecedented, either, because we've got examples like Rachel Dawes from the two most recent Batman movies.

But exploring that would require a great deal more intimate understanding of the dynamics of the character than I have...