StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Posted: **2010-09-25 04:50am**

What do I do if I want to make a fanfic, but many of my characters are ones that other people have made originally in their own fanfics? And what if I just can't make the story good. I have an idea, but it's so...well...I don't know how to make a fight scene. I am not good at making characters talk. And even the scenes...I just can't make them sequentially. Do I just give up on my idea?

Posted: **2010-09-25 06:17am**

kilopi505 wrote:What do I do if I want to make a fanfic, but many of my characters are ones that other people have made originally in their own fanfics? And what if I just can't make the story good. I have an idea, but it's so...well...I don't know how to make a fight scene. I am not good at making characters talk. And even the scenes...I just can't make them sequentially. Do I just give up on my idea?

I won't touch the legal component of this question, since more likely than not I won't get it right.

However, I can tell you that the fanfic community in general frowns strongly upon use of original characters not your own (there is a rather hypocritical statement that goes 'steal from your betters, not from your peers'). If you are going to use the characters/concepts of another fanfic author always try to get their permission or, at the very least, include a line or two acknowledging that the stuff you are using is not your idea.

It might just save you some grief down the road, particularly in places with strong anti-plagiarism rules like SD.net itself.

In the other frond, if you feel that your skills aren't currently adequate for the scope of your ideas/ambition, I'd recommend practice and try to get some beta readers that can give you tips about your work until you feel ready to release your production to the criticism of the general public.[/$0.02]

Posted: **2010-09-25 12:51pm**

My advice would be to avoid using characters that aren't yours entirely. Try to create your own, if you fail at that step then it's likely anything you write even with borrowed characters won't be anything special either.

The other side of the coin on that is that you'll know instinctively how characters you've created will act or react to situations, dialogue or internal conflicts. When you take someone elses character and start using them, you may end up using them in a way you perceive to be correct but the original author would find completely wrong.

As to the rest... all of that is part and parcel of writing. If you can't do any of that with your current writing skills I'd say shelve it until you can develop some writing skills to begin with.

The start of that of course is to read. Read other people's fanfics and read books most especially. See what works and what doesn't, then emulate that.

Some pro tips.

1. Characters.

Think of who you'll want and what story you'll want them in. Check Here or Here for some stock archetypes you can use, just don't forget that archetypes aren't the be all and end all of characters.

2. Plot

You have a story. Great. Now you need a plot.

What?

Yes. A plot. Every story has a plot. It has a beginning, a middle and an end.

Beginning: The Trouble Begins
Middle: The Trouble Escalates
End: The Trouble Has Been Vanquished... or it ends with even more escalation resulting in a cliff hanger.

This is of course a very basic plot. Most writers plot out their story from start to finish subdivided into these three subdivisions. You can take any plot from a book, a film, even a webisode short and still come with a beginning a middle and an end.

Heres an example on how I'd plot out a story I'm making up as I go along.

Beginning

Homeless little girl all alone in street
Sees advertisement for intergalactic space cruise
Little girl stows away in transport craft

Middle

Little girl on spaceship
Is found by crew
She runs
Eventually is captured

End

Crew decides what to do with little girl
Realises she is homeless
They're on the way out of the solar system, turning back is pointless
Crew adopts little girl

The End.

All that needs to happen is to write a story that covers all those points. As you write, new scenes might pop up in your head, the plot may even change completely depending on how you want to spin the story. As long as you have a plan and a plot, you should be on track.

3. Practice

Nobody got good at anything by not practising. Start writing and keep reading. Draft and redraft if you need to, as many times as you want until you're either sick of looking at it or are happy with what you've got.

Post what you've got for public review and say you want constructive criticism.

Now here's the most important part.

When people criticise your work constructively, TAKE WHAT THEY SAY ON BOARD. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen someone blow up because somebody gave them an honest appraisal of what they wrote or simply IGNORED what was said because it wasn't what they wanted to hear. If someones taken the time to give you some concrit, take it on board.

4. Don't fall in love with your work.

Exactly what it says on the tin. You might have a great line, a great scene or even a great chapter... but if everything around it is crap, don't be afraid to throw it out or forget about it.

Your idea may be great, you may have some killer dialogue or a great character in the works. But if your current story just isn't any good according to your concrit, do try to look at your work with a critical eye and don't be afraid to take a knife to the sections that aren't working.

Posted: **2010-09-26 06:35pm**

kilopi505 wrote:What do I do if I want to make a fanfic, but many of my characters are ones that other people have made originally in their own fanfics?

Safest thing would be to get the permission of the people who created those characters first.

And what if I just can't make the story good. I have an idea, but it's so...well...I don't know how to make a fight scene. I am not good at making characters talk. And even the scenes...I just can't make them sequentially. Do I just give up on my idea?

It sounds like you need help improving your technique. I really can't say much, except that maybe one thing you might want to do then is to study the way other writers do it. Failing that, perhaps a creative writing class might help (if you have professional ambitions anyway, seems a bit of a ludicrous suggestion if you just want to write a fanfic, but that's really up to you).

Perhaps try writing some fanfics anyway. Even if you make lots of mistakes it's an opportunity to improve through practice.

Posted: **2010-09-26 08:23pm**

Junghalli wrote:
kilopi505 wrote:What do I do if I want to make a fanfic, but many of my characters are ones that other people have made originally in their own fanfics?
Safest thing would be to get the permission of the people who created those characters first.

And what if I just can't make the story good. I have an idea, but it's so...well...I don't know how to make a fight scene. I am not good at making characters talk. And even the scenes...I just can't make them sequentially. Do I just give up on my idea?
It sounds like you need help improving your technique. I really can't say much, except that maybe one thing you might want to do then is to study the way other writers do it. Failing that, perhaps a creative writing class might help (if you have professional ambitions anyway, seems a bit of a ludicrous suggestion if you just want to write a fanfic, but that's really up to you).

Perhaps try writing some fanfics anyway. Even if you make lots of mistakes it's an opportunity to improve through practice.

What if what I write is just...well, very bad to look at. I don't want to get compared to that atrocity to humankind, 'My Immortal'. I admit right now, my idea is just so...out there.

Right now, my characters, well, I have a reason why they are acting so aggresively and so...lunatic that they make everyone else in their world just stand in shock, and awe.
My story, would anyone flame me for basically revising history for my fanfic? I mean, will you accept this in any story: "The Soviet Union lost one armored division and 30 aircraft in a battle near Mazar-I-Sharif to 1500 mujaheeddin fighters on horseback during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan."

Or how about Japan almost got exterminated since rogues of many, many different factions hijacked all the remaining ICBM's of America and Russia, and pointed them at Japan or spread Chemical and Biological weapons all over Japan. Well, the nukes did land on Japan, they just didn't explode since the factions forgot to arm them, and all the canisters of Poison gas and Plague thingies, didn't get released since the transmitters have no battery charge..
Well...

Really. Just checking.

Posted: **2010-09-27 08:48pm**

Look, from one amateur writer to another, the best advice I can give you is to make a list. List every single main and supporting character you have, list out each of their personality traits beside their names, list their strengths, their weaknesses, definitely their motives, yadda yadda. Then after you've completed that monumental task, sit back and take a look at your characters. Take a look at how they might interact. Will one character get along well with another? Will these two clash? Will these two get along?

From there, take another look at how those characters fit into your plot. Think about how characters would react in certain situations and adjust your story accordingly.

As for the basis for characters, try drawing from experience; see how other people you know have reacted in certain cases, and see how you can apply that to your own characters.

Hope this helps.

Posted: **2010-10-05 12:11am**

Wow whatever happened to "Have fun"?

THE UNOFFICIAL FANFIC COMMANDMENTS

Rule #1 - Don't steal from other authors, regardless if its original fiction or fanfiction
Rule #2 - Have fun.
Rule #3 - If you post it, be prepared that somebody may not like ir or might point out your huge gaping flaws.
Rule #4 - Remember rule #2.
Rule #5 - There is a royalty of $1500 for any fanfiction you write payable to me since I invented fanfiction sometime in the mid 1980's. You are welcome. No personal checks please.

EDIT:

Whoa, sorry about the Necro, I saw it fairly high up on the front page and thought it was still recent. My bad.

Posted: **2010-10-05 12:54am**

Another note: If you're an amateur writer, your stuff's going to suck. There's no getting around that. It's not a bad thing, it's just part of the learning process. The only reason there are good fanfic writers out there is because the sucky ones refused to stop writing and eventually got better. It's the same as any other artform and/or learned skill. If you have ideas in your head, write them out, revel in your lack of skill and, if you're feeling brave, share it with others. Take your lumps, take the good criticisms to heart and try again, and again.

Posted: **2010-10-07 03:26am**

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:Take your lumps, take the good criticisms to heart and try again, and again.

I suppose I should add something on here. I've found that after people bomb your work for the umpteenth time that a sort of depression tends to set in. There's a site I use called fictionpress.com--not a lot of people frequent it, I've found--and posting work on there, even if no one responds, seems to have a cathartic effect on me. Try it out if you're ever feeling down.

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but don't be afraid to ask for help. Don't be afraid to post up on here, "Hey, can someone review this for me?" or "I need help logically figuring out this particular plot point."

Posted: **2010-10-07 10:09am**

Think of who you'll want and what story you'll want them in. Check Here or Here for some stock archetypes you can use, just don't forget that archetypes aren't the be all and end all of characters.

That's terrible advice. Please don't send novice writers to TVTropes unless you're deliberately trying to sabotage their development.

Posted: **2010-10-07 11:42am**

that's not fair red. I've seen good things on that site, and a few members have even written fanfic that is, dare i say it, good. They also accureatly sum up quite a few bad things (mary suedom).
Ps, how do you avoid making a mary sue?

Posted: **2010-10-07 12:25pm**

Darth Yan wrote:that's not fair red. I've seen good things on that site, and a few members have even written fanfic that is, dare i say it, good. They also accureatly sum up quite a few bad things (mary suedom).
Ps, how do you avoid making a mary sue?

Given he's fucking right, who cares if it steps on someone's senstive feelings. TV Tropes is one of the worst places to direct a nascent writer.

But because you don't have the brain cells to use the search function a link to a site that Red has recommended in the past.

SFWA, which should be a stop for aspiring or current writers of science fiction on many points.

Posted: **2010-10-07 12:44pm**

Since the issue's come up a number of times, I wonder if it would be worth it to sticky one of the multiple threads that thoroughly demonstrated why TVTropes and its attitude towards fiction is generally a really bad way to go about things.

Caiaphas wrote:I suppose I should add something on here. I've found that after people bomb your work for the umpteenth time that a sort of depression tends to set in. There's a site I use called fictionpress.com--not a lot of people frequent it, I've found--and posting work on there, even if no one responds, seems to have a cathartic effect on me. Try it out if you're ever feeling down.

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but don't be afraid to ask for help. Don't be afraid to post up on here, "Hey, can someone review this for me?" or "I need help logically figuring out this particular plot point."

Yeah, I've posted most of my first-draft stuff on fictionpress. Basically you're going to get next to no reviews unless you go out of your way looking for attention.

Posted: **2010-10-07 02:41pm**

Darth Yan wrote:that's not fair red. I've seen good things on that site, and a few members have even written fanfic that is, dare i say it, good. They also accureatly sum up quite a few bad things (mary suedom).

It's perfectly fair, because it's true. I explained in another thread what's wrong with TVTropes as a resource (HERE). It's worse for beginning writers, and here's why:

A beginning writer is trying to figure out a lot of things--how stories work, how characters work, how plots flow believably, how things like symbolism and theme and other "between the lines" stuff fits in, all that. It's a tall order. It's hard. It's why a lot of beginning writers give up, and why a lot of beginning writers who don't give up never actually get any good at it, the same way that I could never get good at playing the trumpet even after years of practice. The only way a beginner is going to get a grasp of this stuff is to 1) read a lot, and 2) write a lot. Reading to see how it works in successful stories (and how it breaks in unsuccessful ones), and writing to learn how to do it yourself.

When you send a beginner to TVTropes, you're telling him, "Hey, there's a shortcut to this." TVTropes tries to break down narrative fiction into discrete blocks, like Legos, and categorize them. Go to TVTropes, rummage through the bin for blocks you like, and then snap them together to make a story. Then try to figure out why your story blows, because, shit, turns out that's not how stories work, and snapping a bunch of tropes together just leaves you with a pile of cliches stuck together. It's like trying to learn to build a house by picking random parts out of the Home Depot catalog.

This is all beyond problems with TVTropes' organization, which I explained in my earlier post.

It's especially egregious to tell someone, "Hey, go to the list of character archetypes and pick one you like." That's fucking awful advice for someone who's struggling with character creation. A character is a simulated person--he or she has goals, a personality that's going to determine how he or she attempts to meet these goals, likes, dislikes, loves, hates. His or her behavior in the story should emerge organically from the events of the plot and the actions of other characters, and in turn his or her actions will influence the plot and the actions of other characters. You construct a character by deciding in the beginning what role you think he or she will serve in the story (this can change as you write; stories emerge organically, remember), sketching a personality, and then turning him or her loose in the story. At no point in that process should you go to a website written by a bunch of pedantic weeaboos, pick a cardboard cutout from a list, and stick him on a rail because that's what that "archetype" is supposed to do. Write the damn story and let the weeaboos figure out into which archetype pigeonhole they want to shove your character later.

Ps, how do you avoid making a mary sue?

Have your other characters respond realistically to the actions of the protagonist, have the courage to give your character actual flaws, and give him or her real obstacles that he or she actually has to work hard to overcome.

Posted: **2010-10-07 03:57pm**

okay. thanks. what of more experienced writers?

Posted: **2010-10-07 04:16pm**

Darth Yan wrote:okay. thanks. what of more experienced writers?

TVTropes is less likely to damage an experienced writer, but it's still pretty useless as a writing resource. If it wasn't, I'd use it.

Posted: **2010-10-07 09:41pm**

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:Yeah, I've posted most of my first-draft stuff on fictionpress. Basically you're going to get next to no reviews unless you go out of your way looking for attention.

I know. I have around forty works of mine on there and a grand total of 20 reviews. My account's been up for almost two years.

I recommended it not so much for the reviews you'll get but more for the psychological value of it. I found it useful when I was going through a harder phase in my writing. I'd go online when I was feeling that my work was a complete steaming pile of shit, and I'd look at what I posted, and that helped. Somehow.

Posted: **2010-10-08 08:52am**

Darth Yan wrote:okay. thanks. what of more experienced writers?

TVTropes is the place you go to laugh at the fact that there are people out there who think that just because they've got a bigger collection of animes (definition: The Japanese equivalent of the badly written '80s American cartoons created for the express purpose of getting people to buy overpriced crap,) and mangas (defintion: The Japanese equivalent of American comic books, except with bigger eyes and boobs,) than the Library of Congress has books, and they have time to watch all of it because their parents don't care if they ever leave the basement, that it qualifies them to be literary critics.

In other words, it's the place experienced writers go to remind themselves that, no matter how badly your editor has marked up your latest draft . . . at least you know what you're doing; unlike those TVTropes weeabos.

Posted: **2010-10-08 10:06am**

I did check the site red mentioned. As an anlytical site it definately is superior. I will acknowledge that. I still found the style to be unfamiliar and uncomftorable. And yes tvtropes is definately flawed but there is more to it then just anime and manga. I'm not saying it's perfect, or that they're analysis is great (serious analysis is somewhat above average at best, and truly inisightful comments about real books is pretty damn rare) but the average troper is still more then just a manga and anime fanwhore who lives in the basement.

Posted: **2010-10-08 10:17am**

Darth Yan wrote:I did check the site red mentioned. As an anlytical site it definately is superior. I will acknowledge that. I still found the style to be unfamiliar and uncomftorable. And yes tvtropes is definately flawed but there is more to it then just anime and manga. I'm not saying it's perfect, or that they're analysis is great (serious analysis is somewhat above average at best, and truly inisightful comments about real books is pretty damn rare) but the average troper is still more then just a manga and anime fanwhore who lives in the basement.

You're right, the average troper isn't just a cartoon/comic fanwhore, he's just a basement dweller who doesn't grasp how to make a proper example to explain what the fuck example he spewed out and makes no attempt to try to clarify for the audience. In fact your defense of it can be summed up that because you like it, it is not so bad.

The particular fact that eludes you because you do not want to admit that TVTropes has less handle on itself then Wikipedia does, gives nonsensical information with no referential points, and the only reason it provides something useful is more by way of coincidence then any concerted effort by said tropers.

Posted: **2010-10-08 10:30am**

Let me give my two cents on writing fanfics. I don't believe in looking at websites like Tv Tropes - I personally find it interesting but would never take inspiration from it for my writing. The single best way to improve your writing is to write. It sounds silly but the more you get words to paper (figuratively speaking) the more they start to flow and you create your own style over time. The second greatest factor in writing is to read. Yes, folks, you need to read a book. I don't give a shit if it's a trashy romance novel or right wing propaganda crap like Glen Beck - read. Reading makes you to start to recognize how words fit together. How they sound and in some instances you even can identify what you don't like.

If you want to step up your game then you must start reading good works. If you're fanfic is sci fi related then I strongly suggest books like Ender's Game and the excellent sequel Speaker of the Dead. Other great works to want to read are some of Asmiov's stuff, the Foundation series is a little old school but the writing itself is solid. Don't worry if you find yourself imitating the writing styles. I have lifted some descriptions whole sale from works because I really liked the imagery it conjures up. Imitation prepares you for instituting your own style.

You will not be an awesome writer off the bat. That just doesn't really happen. I've been writing since I was 10, small short stories written in a beat up notebook that I still have. I read it now and I cringe. But I was 10. And it was the first time I had tried to write. After many years I still don't think I have it down - that's one of the awesome things about writing, you are always improving - but I think many people here seem to like what I write so practice does make perfect.

Here's the takeaway. Don't rely on others telling you how to write, and by that I mean going to websites or reading how to write books. Believe in yourself, find your voice and then stick with it.

One last thing. You don't really know how to write until you run it by an audience. When you get feedback that is when you have become a writer. When someone took time out of their day and actually read your work and then felt strongly enough to write something about it - there is no better feeling for me in the world. I could care less if it says "This suxxors!!" That person actually read it.

Posted: **2010-10-08 12:04pm**

Darth Yan, from a slightly better universe where he could type, wrote:I did check the site Red mentioned. As an analytical site it definitely is superior. I will acknowledge that. I still found the style to be unfamiliar and uncomfortable[/i]. And yes TV Tropes is definitely flawed but there is more to it then just anime and manga. I'm not saying it's perfect, or that they're analysis is great (serious analysis is somewhat above average at best, and truly insightful comments about real books is pretty damn rare) but the average troper is still more then just a manga and anime fanwhore who lives in the basement.

1) It is spelled "definitely." There is no letter a in it. Gods, I wish you borderline illiterates would stop calling forth my inner grammar nazzie. At the very least, for the lazy, there's this thing called "spell-check."

2) The fact that you find a much better site to be both unfamiliar and uncomfortable shows that you're filling your head with nothing but pap and bullshit. I have terrible taste and enjoy that kind of pap and bullshit, but I also recognize that they are not legitimate sources of information. Things like TV Tropes and Cracked.com are for entertainment only. Facts happening to be right are incidental things that somehow manage to happen between the fanservice, silliness, and hyperbole. They are the mental equivalent of candy: perfectly fine if one's diet is mostly healthy and it's just a treat, but very unhealthy when overeaten or eaten in lieu of stuff that isn't pure crap. If you can't handle your vegetables at all, then whine when something isn't 100% sugar, to put it in words you may understand, "you're doing it wrong."

Posted: **2010-10-08 01:08pm**

TVTropes are for fanboys to fawn over their favorite serieses and shows and gundamechanimumangoes by doing post-mortem autopsies to show what cool bits and pieces of it there are that tickle their fancies, nothing more and everything less. RedImperator gives excellent reasons as to why TVTropes is meh, and he's not the only one who's said so. So far, many of the people who've 'dissed' TVTropes come off as relatively intelligent well-to-do people with decent writings, whereas those who rush to protect TVTropes with their bleeding breasts come off as a bunch of Morlocks shrieking from sunlight. At least, they seem to be as intelligible as Morlocks.

I mean, come on, its a site for fanboys who make stupid names to describe portions of their favorite animus that make them happy in the pants. That is not where you want aspiring writers to go to, to get sucked into brainbugged fanbois with delusions of standing, who doublethink that it's all just for "fun", cause it's just a big fun circlejerk of fun guys having fun by sucking each other's dicks for fun over fun animus and fun mangoes and fun whateverers.

In short, in a metaphor RedImp might appreciate, good buildings and good architecture are not made out of goddamn prefabricated plaster pieces of shit. Writing is something that you build by yourself, something an architect designs over a period of time, revises, tears to pieces, remakes, in an organic process, in a learning, growing process as the person tries to better himself - with varying levels of success - over a period of time, driven by the aspiration to make his works greater and greater while he tries to improve himself.

TVTropes isn't even that.

(Man, it's hilarious that after anybody tries to posit TVTropes as a source for anything valuable, he gets challenged on it and ultimately it always comes down to "tvtropes is just for funs mangs!". Yeah. That's it. TVTropes. Nothing more, and everything less.)

=^____________________________^=

Posted: **2010-10-08 02:54pm**

Mayabird is definately correct in her analysis of me, and I will admit that I have been to unwilling to accept other opinions about the site. I still find the attitude that every single member of the site is a brainless loser to be an unfair judgement. By all means, hate the site if you want too. But can you at least acknowledge that not every single person on the site is a brainless imbecile.

Posted: **2010-10-08 03:02pm**

Darth Yan wrote:Mayabird is definately correct in her analysis of me, and I will admit that I have been to unwilling to accept other opinions about the site. I still find the attitude that every single member of the site is a brainless loser to be an unfair judgement.

Which no one fucking said. Read the posts and not skim and leap to a conclusion that soothes your ego.

By all means, hate the site if you want too. But can you at least acknowledge that not every single person on the site is a brainless imbecile.

Thank you for being a fucking retard who needs to falsely remember the facts presented before him.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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