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Ok, you guys know me, you know I like to do new and interesting things, and here's one of them: We're going to write an alternate-history, and we're going to do it together.

How? You ask? By putting together or collective intellects and doing some good thinking.

Why? You ask? Why not.

Here's my POD (Point of Departure):

100,000 years ago Neanderthals ruled the earth. Not ruled really, but dominated. Then homo-sapiens came and drove them to extinction about 30,000 years ago.

But wait! The fickle hand of fate has changed history! A large group of neanderthals made the sociological "great leap forward" in intellect and social structure, and migrated to the Americas where there were no humans. They spread out and built their own civilization and prevented Native Americans from gaining any sort of foothold. Everything in Human history went as expected until 1492...

What I need from you is to help me figure out what a Neanderthal civilization would be like:
What is their social structure?
How do they live?
What do they value?

Also, how does history change? Genocidal wars? Peaceful trade? The enslavement of Neanderthals? Neanderthal conquest of Europe?

A few guidelines:
1. Neanderthals are not as advanced as Europeans. They may have gunpowder or not, but they're definitely late-middle ages.
2. Neanderthals have taboo about crossing deep water, so they never built big ships before Europe found them.
3. Everything we know physiologically about neanderthals applies; They're shorter than us, far stronger, and primarily meat-eaters.
4. Anthropology applies too: They lived in more 'clans' than single family groups, and even way-back-when they cared for their elderly.
5. No magic. Sorry.
6. They preferred cave-dwellings to other locations, maybe these neanderthals have stone cities and a decidedly dwarven bent.
7. Neanderthal population of the Americas is less-dense, possibly only 2/3 the population of Europe+Middle-East.
8. Neanderthals are immune to most human disease, but they could be carriers:twisted:
9. I like megafauna, so they didn't get hunted to extinction.

I'll function as a moderator and refine and focus ideas as we go.

Tallyho!

Come on, guys! Its a challenge! Carpe Diem!

Hmmm...Neanderthals surviving to the 1400s?

I'd imagine they'd have a slight advantage in hunting, with superior strength and immunity to most diseases. They'd probably also be socially organized along lines of food possession (more on this below). If they're straight out carnivores than they'd most likely have a culture based on herding buffelo and other large cattle as food, which could have an impact on their cultural situation.

I'd also think they'd have a similar culture to the Native Americans who followed the buffelo herds and whatnot, but instead they'd have corraled the herds into cattle farming communities outside of their major 'cities'.

If i were to imagine it, i'd say they'd have cities built almost into the land, like fortified enclaves (think Helms Deep from Two Towers), but very centralized, with most of their population centred in a few dozen large fortified positions, seeing as they lived in fairly rigidly structured clans.

I'd think they'd have gunpowder, but nothing more than handcannons, no rifles or such. I would think they'd value relitively little in the way we do. Remember, their ideals of 'wealth' might be orginized in such a way that he who has more cattle (their meat eaters afterall) would be the most powerful. The comparason i'd draw is that in early Japanese history, rice was considered a valuable comodity. He who had more rice could feed more soldiers, more soldiers meant more land, more land meant more power. In this civilization, meat should be on their shortlist of valuable goods, as opposed to gold or silver or such.

When the Europeans land, they'll be looking for precious metals, and soon they'd need food. The Neanderthals, being as centralized as they are, would see this as an invasion. I knwo a little about carnivores, and from what i've read they'll defend their teritory very quickly. One thing that might slip them up will be the fear of the Europeans origins--they came across the deep oceans after all.

But as a match up, it'd be an interesting fight:

Neanderthals--stronger, smaller, more familiure with the land. Natural hunters, they'd quickly begin to hit European settlements. And their immunity to disease would make them un-effected by the European tactic of 'viral warfare'. But their weapons (lets assume archers, swords, spears) would be less effective at range than rifles and cannons. Combine that with the European's ship mounted cannons, and you have a considerable disadvantage for the Neanderthals.

Europeans--more powerful weapons, more numbers, but prone to unknown diseases perhaps carried by the Neanderthals...could you imagine the equivilent of The Plague carried by thousands of people, all immune, but you arent? That right there could do them in, and there is also the matter of having little or no knowledge about the land. But their weapons would be vastly superior to the Neanderthals, and their numbers much higher. They could afford to loose the battle and still win the war.

In the end, it'd be a very differnet Manifest Destiny. If the Neanderthals viruses dont kill them, they could get a foot hold in the areas near the sea, where the Neanderthals would veer away from. But viral infection would be a big problem...especially if the Neanderthals figure out that sniffly nose sickness that barely effects them happened to be 100% fatal to the Europeans .

But eventually, the European's firepower will make their colonization slowly succede. There wouldnt be an America as we know it, but slowly there would be an expansion of the colonies. But the Neanderthals as slaves isnt happening--they'd might as well try to tame a mammoth (that is what you mean by megafuana right?) than a race of carnivores with superior strength.

An aside: they'd probably live longer than the Europeans. The average age of death back then was 30s or 40s, the Neanderthals might hit 50s or 60s, and they'd be healthier too probably with their superior immune systems. That's a huge advantage.

That's what i have right off my head, i'll add some more later.

Question: how different do the Neanderthals look? Will it be too hard for them to tell one another is human, or will they figure it out with time? They sound like Dwarfs from LOTR (and it gives me a theory on where the Dwarves came from).

Finally a response, and I only had to PM you

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Hmmm...Neanderthals surviving to the 1400s?

I'd imagine they'd have a slight advantage in hunting, with superior strength and immunity to most diseases. They'd probably also be socially organized along lines of food possession (more on this below). If they're straight out carnivores than they'd most likely have a culture based on herding buffelo and other large cattle as food, which could have an impact on their cultural situation.

When I said immune, I meant to nasty euro-things like smallpox and the plague. They probably have their own diseases. And Neanderthals weren't carnivores, but more like dogs who eat about 8,000 calories a day, compared to our 20000.

I'd also think they'd have a similar culture to the Native Americans who followed the buffelo herds and whatnot, but instead they'd have corraled the herds into cattle farming communities outside of their major 'cities'.

If i were to imagine it, i'd say they'd have cities built almost into the land, like fortified enclaves (think Helms Deep from Two Towers), but very centralized, with most of their population centred in a few dozen large fortified positions, seeing as they lived in fairly rigidly structured clans.

That's what I was thinking, settlements near herds without a lot in-between, but plenty of trade between settlements (not everyone can raise mammoth)

I'd think they'd have gunpowder, but nothing more than handcannons, no rifles or such. I would think they'd value relitively little in the way we do. Remember, their ideals of 'wealth' might be orginized in such a way that he who has more cattle (their meat eaters afterall) would be the most powerful. The comparason i'd draw is that in early Japanese history, rice was considered a valuable comodity. He who had more rice could feed more soldiers, more soldiers meant more land, more land meant more power. In this civilization, meat should be on their shortlist of valuable goods, as opposed to gold or silver or such.

I'd think iron and gold and silver would still be significant for most of the same reasons they were to humans, their metalwork might even be a bit better if they're doing more stonework.

When the Europeans land, they'll be looking for precious metals, and soon they'd need food. The Neanderthals, being as centralized as they are, would see this as an invasion. I knwo a little about carnivores, and from what i've read they'll defend their teritory very quickly. One thing that might slip them up will be the fear of the Europeans origins--they came across the deep oceans after all.

Its not all of europe showing up at once, its Cortez and the others. There probably won't be coastal settlements as much as in human regions, but you're right about the neanderthals probably fearing and attacking the unknown. They're not afraid of the sea, its taboo, like in India.

But as a match up, it'd be an interesting fight:

Neanderthals--stronger, smaller, more familiure with the land. Natural hunters, they'd quickly begin to hit European settlements. And their immunity to disease would make them un-effected by the European tactic of 'viral warfare'. But their weapons (lets assume archers, swords, spears) would be less effective at range than rifles and cannons. Combine that with the European's ship mounted cannons, and you have a considerable disadvantage for the Neanderthals.

Europeans--more powerful weapons, more numbers, but prone to unknown diseases perhaps carried by the Neanderthals...could you imagine the equivilent of The Plague carried by thousands of people, all immune, but you arent? That right there could do them in, and there is also the matter of having little or no knowledge about the land. But their weapons would be vastly superior to the Neanderthals, and their numbers much higher. They could afford to loose the battle and still win the war.

Europeans definitely don't have numbers, gunpowder was their only advantage. 200 Spaniards against an angry city of people scared enough to overcome their fears wouldn't get very far. I envision trade at first, followed perhaps later by conflict.

In the end, it'd be a very differnet Manifest Destiny. If the Neanderthals viruses dont kill them, they could get a foot hold in the areas near the sea, where the Neanderthals would veer away from. But viral infection would be a big problem...especially if the Neanderthals figure out that sniffly nose sickness that barely effects them happened to be 100% fatal to the Europeans .

That's what I'm hoping, I want my people to stay alive. Maybe the Neanderthal kings (lords, whatever) permit coastal settlements by the outsiders to facilitate trade, and maybe some farming.

But eventually, the European's firepower will make their colonization slowly succede. There wouldnt be an America as we know it, but slowly there would be an expansion of the colonies. But the Neanderthals as slaves isnt happening--they'd might as well try to tame a mammoth (that is what you mean by megafuana right?) than a race of carnivores with superior strength.

Megafauna: Mammoth, Mastodon, giant elk, giant sloth, smilodon.

An aside: they'd probably live longer than the Europeans. The average age of death back then was 30s or 40s, the Neanderthals might hit 50s or 60s, and they'd be healthier too probably with their superior immune systems. That's a huge advantage.

That's what i have right off my head, i'll add some more later.

Question: how different do the Neanderthals look? Will it be too hard for them to tell one another is human, or will they figure it out with time? They sound like Dwarfs from LOTR (and it gives me a theory on where the Dwarves came from).

A neanderthal is a hominid that has an almost identical body-shape except for the following:

1. Wider hips give them a rolling gait and likely helped with agility over uneven terrain.

2. If 15th century europeans averaged 5'4", neanderthals would only be 4'6"-4'8".

3. Their muscles show. Their wide hips were also probably to help accomodate their increased muscle mass on their torso.

4. Their skulls are differently shaped, with almost no chin and a larger back-skull accomodating a larger brain.

5. You would never mistake a neandertal for a human. They were cold-adapted and likely had a lot more body-hair than we do.

Finally a response, and i only had to PM you

I was out like a light most of the day. Long story short: stayed up too late, fell asleep, woke up at 7:00...but i'm good now

Question: Are the Neanderthals capable of building European style armour? Some of my assumptions were based on the idea that the Europeans had superior protection, but it just popped to mind when i read this...

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'd think iron and gold and silver would still be significant for most of thesame reasons they were to human, their metalwork might even be better if their doing more stonework.

...that the Neanderthals might have plate armour similar to the Europeans or better. If so, they might get close enough to the Europeans for H2H and then their strength could be a significant advantage.

As for the megafauna...that could be a problem for the Europeans and the Neanderthals. I seriously cant picture any sort of hominid fighting a mastadon. I imagine they're rare, however. Mammoths were smaller, i think, and could be herded/tamed perhaps. Could you imagine domesticated mammoths? Riding into battle atop huge, wholy elephants...that would be a sight to see, and i'd imagine a horrifying one as well.

If i were to hazzard a guess i'd say at first, perhaps for years, there would be almost all out war (ala the 'Indian Wars'). I cant see a centralized, well developed, urbanized, clan-based hunter culture accepting the existance of outsiders completly different religiously and physically from them. But after a while, it's possible the two sides would be uneasy neighbors. Trade would be a factor in this, certainly. Like i said, a few mammoths can go a long way in terms of food, so would giant elk. It would be a different world though. I simply dont see the mass-colonizatin of the entire continent by homo sapiens: too hostile enviromentally, megafauna, too in-trenched native culture.


Your description of Neanderthals is interesting. They sound like huge apes, just as i suspected they would. The thing is, they'll certainly have their own diseases, ones that they might have developed antibodies for. Before medicine as we know it, it would be child's play to transmit those diseases to the Europeans...remember, the same thing happened in reverse before. Giving them imunity to the plague and smallpox certainly give sthem a big advantage.

But if it comes down to hand to hand, their smaller frames, more ape-like profiles, and increased strength and muscle density will win out over a normal human like you and moi. If they had a larger brain, and their intelligence was proportional to their increased brain size, they might even be smarter.

If i were Cortez, these are my orders:

1. Hold back, wait for them to get within range and fire, never get close enough to engage in hand to hand fighting.

2. concentrate on their larger torsos.

3. watch out for their hands--if they can get a grip, they'll most likely kill you.

4. most importantly--watch out for the mastadon/mammoth herds. Domesticated or not, their dangerous. The giant sloths and whatnot are prety bad too (but i'm assuming the elephantine creatures are the majority here), but not as numerous.

Using superior weapons, they could certainly carve out a foothold. But to take down the Neanderthal cities would meen street to street fighting, in an unfamiliure territory. A situation the Neaderthals are oddly enough probably looking forward to--in their cities, with their close combat strength, it'd be a slaughter. But at range, with inferior weapons, they cant force the Europeans off the continent without loosing massive numbers.

Manifest destiny would deffinately be offste by a few centuries, and America as we know it would be nonexistant.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:I was out like a light most of the day. Long story short: stayed up too late, fell asleep, woke up at 7:00...but i'm good now

Question: Are the Neanderthals capable of building European style armour? Some of my assumptions were based on the idea that the Europeans had superior protection, but it just popped to mind when i read this...

Let's say they're working on articulated plate, but they mostly don't need it because their superior strength would drive a metal weapon through any wearable metal armor. If you're stronger than armor, you don't really need it. So, they'd wear armor about as much as the conquistadors did, protecting only the vital areas.

...that the Neanderthals might have plate armour similar to the Europeans or better. If so, they might get close enough to the Europeans for H2H and then their strength could be a significant advantage.

As for the megafauna...that could be a problem for the Europeans and the Neanderthals. I seriously cant picture any sort of hominid fighting a mastadon. I imagine they're rare, however. Mammoths were smaller, i think, and could be herded/tamed perhaps. Could you imagine domesticated mammoths? Riding into battle atop huge, wholy elephants...that would be a sight to see, and i'd imagine a horrifying one as well.

Mastodons were actually smaller, especially in North-America. Both were likely similar in temperament to elephants, and could likely be domesticated for labor. However, they aren't oliphants and war elephants have not been successfully used in warfare to my knowledge.

If i were to hazzard a guess i'd say at first, perhaps for years, there would be almost all out war (ala the 'Indian Wars'). I cant see a centralized, well developed, urbanized, clan-based hunter culture accepting the existance of outsiders completly different religiously and physically from them. But after a while, it's possible the two sides would be uneasy neighbors. Trade would be a factor in this, certainly. Like i said, a few mammoths can go a long way in terms of food, so would giant elk. It would be a different world though. I simply dont see the mass-colonizatin of the entire continent by homo sapiens: too hostile enviromentally, megafauna, too in-trenched native culture.

You're assuming they have religion .

Your description of Neanderthals is interesting. They sound like huge apes, just as i suspected they would. The thing is, they'll certainly have their own diseases, ones that they might have developed antibodies for. Before medicine as we know it, it would be child's play to transmit those diseases to the Europeans...remember, the same thing happened in reverse before. Giving them imunity to the plague and smallpox certainly give sthem a big advantage.

But if it comes down to hand to hand, their smaller frames, more ape-like profiles, and increased strength and muscle density will win out over a normal human like you and moi. If they had a larger brain, and their intelligence was proportional to their increased brain size, they might even be smarter.

Intelligence is not proportional to brain size. Not in mammals, anyway.

If i were Cortez, these are my orders:

1. Hold back, wait for them to get within range and fire, never get close enough to engage in hand to hand fighting.

2. concentrate on their larger torsos.

3. watch out for their hands--if they can get a grip, they'll most likely kill you.

4. most importantly--watch out for the mastadon/mammoth herds. Domesticated or not, their dangerous. The giant sloths and whatnot are prety bad too (but i'm assuming the elephantine creatures are the majority here), but not as numerous.

Its not mammoths and mastodons as far as the eye can see, there's wolves, bears, lions, tigers, buffalo, giant elk, giant sloth, and a lot of other unfriendly things. They'd be as dangerous to the explorers as african fauna was to various expeditions.

Using superior weapons, they could certainly carve out a foothold. But to take down the Neanderthal cities would meen street to street fighting, in an unfamiliure territory. A situation the Neaderthals are oddly enough probably looking forward to--in their cities, with their close combat strength, it'd be a slaughter. But at range, with inferior weapons, they cant force the Europeans off the continent without loosing massive numbers.

Manifest destiny would deffinately be offste by a few centuries, and America as we know it would be nonexistant.

So, does a young trapper named George Washington befriend a neanderthal hunter?

@#$@ post accidently went before I finished.

I was going to say that maybe colonists on the edge of North America turn to the Neanderthal kings for help when British rule proves to be less than satisfactory.

Oh, and a giant sloth stood 13 feet tall and grazed like a brontosaur.

Well, if we assume their very clan-based, and they care for their ancesstors, they could have a sort of ancesstor worhsip is what i was thinking. But still, Cortez would most likely try to convert them, with pradictable results.

As for various fauna, i kind of thought that the more mondane animals wouldnt be a problem, they have wolves and such in Europe. But a sloth as big as car....that's a problem. If there are a lot of them, like there used to be millions of buffalo, then that could be serious bad shit for nayone not used to living in that kin dof competition for survival. And you're right, huge elk and tigers would be a huge problem. Maybe not in small numbers, but if the numbers are big enough then thinsg could get messy when they start fighting the Neanderthals.

Without armour, the Neanderthals are at a sever disadvantage at range, but without Neanderthal strength the Europeans cant take them on in close quarters. I still see small colonies in the uninhabited (by Neanderthal) areas, and a slow expansion based on population growth. But George Washington meeting a Neanderthal would be interesting

As for the Neanderthals helping the colonists...that depends. It might be that the Neanderthals would take advantage of the Revelution to expand their territory, while some clans would definately try to cut a nice slice of the colonial pie from the British royals, by assisting the Rebels. It might even turn the Neanderthals against one another.

Assuming their the same intelligence, then it's probably safe to say they'll have a written language by the time the Europeans arrive. That was something i just thought of--they might be able to communicate more easily through writing. If either side can get a rosetta stone of sorts going, then war might be avoided. They might even become allies, and begin peaceful trade. But that would be a fun story now would it? It depends on how you want to go: if it were me, i'd say they fight tooth and nail against what they see as basically an alien invasion...but if they actually do create some kind of back-and-forth communications, it might go very differnetly.

Tell me, do the Neanderthals have horses, and are their guns equivilent to matchlocks? If so, this could be an interesting fight. And we need a name for the Neanderthals, something shorter to write...what about the Kin?

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Well, if we assume their very clan-based, and they care for their ancesstors, they could have a sort of ancesstor worhsip is what i was thinking. But still, Cortez would most likely try to convert them, with pradictable results.

Neanderthal: Wait, who died for my sins?

I don't know if they'd even be considered human and posessing of a soul, if they look so different. Passive conversions get ignored, forcible ones don't go over so well.

As for various fauna, i kind of thought that the more mondane animals wouldnt be a problem, they have wolves and such in Europe. But a sloth as big as car....that's a problem. If there are a lot of them, like there used to be millions of buffalo, then that could be serious bad shit for nayone not used to living in that kin dof competition for survival. And you're right, huge elk and tigers would be a huge problem. Maybe not in small numbers, but if the numbers are big enough then thinsg could get messy when they start fighting the Neanderthals.

How significant were tigers in the British conquest of India? Not very. Camps will have to post guards when they realize there's 800 pound wolves and 2000 pound bears out there, though. Probably why Neanderthals live in large, wallled cities...

Without armour, the Neanderthals are at a sever disadvantage at range, but without Neanderthal strength the Europeans cant take them on in close quarters. I still see small colonies in the uninhabited (by Neanderthal) areas, and a slow expansion based on population growth. But George Washington meeting a Neanderthal would be interesting

As for the Neanderthals helping the colonists...that depends. It might be that the Neanderthals would take advantage of the Revelution to expand their territory, while some clans would definately try to cut a nice slice of the colonial pie from the British royals, by assisting the Rebels. It might even turn the Neanderthals against one another.

For glorious battle and a chance to honor your ancestors, you'd join up, too. Hey, maybe Neanderthals decide to help out when a dejected continental army makes camp in valley forge.

Assuming their the same intelligence, then it's probably safe to say they'll have a written language by the time the Europeans arrive. That was something i just thought of--they might be able to communicate more easily through writing. If either side can get a rosetta stone of sorts going, then war might be avoided.

People understood each other when the Spanish got here, and there wasn't any writing. It just takes two people who want to understand each other.

I can definitely see the Europeans fast-dominating the Carribean, the islands wouldn't be large enough or rich enough in wildlife to support more than 500 Kin on any one island.

Tell me, do the Neanderthals have horses, and are their guns equivilent to matchlocks? If so, this could be an interesting fight. And we need a name for the Neanderthals, something shorter to write...what about the Kin?

There's no reason to think the 5-toed horse wouldn't be treated like any other food animal, though I suppose it could be domesticated as a smaller work-animal. The Kin would probably have matchlock at best, supplemented with spears, bayonets, and some other bladed weapon.

I'd think reprecussions in Europe on the discovery of another race would cause quite a bit of turmoil, and it might be 100 years before everyone gets a good idea of just what these Kin and kingdoms are.

From what i know of Manifest Destiny, i'd bet my very life someone would try to convert someone. Hey, we never discussed what would happen if the Kin start trying (and perhaps succeeding) in converting Cortez's men!

Cortez: So you worship what again?

Kin: Oh, we have many gods. They are our great ancesstors, they are Those Who Survived. And any who die valiantly in battle will be awarded eternal paradise in the Halls of the Ancients, where they will be young and live forever.

Cortez: Hmmm, eternal youth eh? *wrings hands* That sounds promising, tell me more.


I imagine the Europeans, used to 'tiny' 200pounder wolves, would be in for quite a shock when they meet an 800 pound uber-wolf . More over, i think they'd figure out the usefulness of massive stone walls too, especially when sloths start tipping the scale at Mack truck sizes. They'd rapidly either leave this 'land of monsters' or build fortifications and cannon emplacements as quick as possible.

Assuming the Colonials live long enough to form a rebellion, i can certainly see some Kin city-states joining them, but i can just as easily see a divison amongst the Kin: those who welcome trade with the 'aliens', and those who want to skin them and use their skulls as ashtrays. It could literally spark a civil war. Heh...the Union of Northern Strongholds versus the Confederacy of Southern Lords, that would be a lot more interesting than any revolutionary war.

Assuming physical appearances dont deter communication, they might have a system set up relitively quick. But because of their tendancy to live in walled cities and their superior strength and smaller target profile (if your shooting at them) i think any European conquest will definately be in the more isolated areas, like you said. The Kin population in, say, Colorado might be in the tens of thousands. Even with numerical and firepower superiority, they'd be a tough army to handle. But with mathlocks too, and plate armour, the Kin have an advantage anywhere they can dig in. The Europeans face the problem any force does when invading teritory held by a technologically comperable culture--laying siege to dug in positions held by an enemy familiure with the terrain. Most sieges are either very quick and victorious, or very long and fruitless, and especially when an enemy has been dug in for centuriess simply by virtue of their cultural needs.

As for reprecussions:

I think it would literally rock Europe. It's not like when they went to Africa or India, those were different cultures, but they werent differnet species of men. This is literally going to change how they look at the world.

If it goes peacefully, it might make them more tolerant, after all, if these creatures that are more ape than man can be counted as freinds what about the actual homo sapiens. On the other hand, it'd take decades or centuries for someone to come along and actually figure out what the Kin are, so they might just dub them 'ape-men' and begin planes for a large scale invasion.

Meanwhile, if the Kin make nice with the Colonial Rebels, it could end up being a three way war: the Kin and the Colonials fighting against the oppression of the British Empire.

Is this an idea for a book, cause it sounds like it could make for a good story in a number of ways.

I'm kicking it around as an idea for a book, and there's a lot of creative talent here. BTW, I think you meant to say "more man than ape", otherwise no one would like them

And remember, the Spanish didn't come with an army, Cortez had less than 1000 men. They won because of some very lucky circumstances, Pizzaro even moreso. You can bet that spanish missions would have a decidedly more fortress-like nature, perhaps even built with labor purchased from local stonemasons. As for religion, I think that once both sides realize conflict won't be easy, they'll have to "agree to disagree" like they did in China and India, with slow, gradual conversions on both sides.

What will really be interesting is if hybridization is possible.

On the flip-side, hardly anything is going to be living in the South-American jungles, they're hot, humid, and wet, not the sort of thing neanderthals enjoy living in. So, there is SOME room for settlement, as in places like Virginia and florida.

Yes i cant see heavily coated Kin going into the everglades either. That would be a perfect spot for the Europeans to set up shop, as would any humid place, now that i think about it. But the Kin might eventually figure a way around that.

Spanish missions and British forts wouldnt be made of thin walls and wood anymore. They'd almost certainly have stone walls not unlike the great castles of europe, just to protect against giant wolves and bears and huge sloths, and god forbid there is a mammoth stampeed. They'd have to almost use cannon or ballistas to take the damn things down, or would a musket have any effect against a giant creature like that?

As for hybridization...it's possible. Tigers and Lions can reproduce, so i see no reason a Kin-Homo Sapien baby wouldnt be possible. I think it'd look like a human with a Kin's muscles and head, or vice versa. It'd probably be weaker than a Kin, but stronger than a normal human, and with light covering of fur.

If you were to write a story, my suggestions would be:

1. The Europeans arrive, establish colonies in the south, and hunker down with an 'agree to disagree' treaty set up. But then, when the Colonials rebel, the British/Spanish (your choice) Empire send their armies to re-conquer teh colonies. The Colonials send an envoy to try and make an alliance with the Strongholds of the Lower Kingdoms. But something goes wrong, and the Kin decide to fight both armies.

2. After the revelution (sucessful), some of the more powefrul Kingdoms want to make a formal, permenant alliance with the Colonial Congress. But others wnat to turn the Homo Sapiens into the next dish on their menus. A Three way war erupts: the Colonials and the Northern Kingdoms against the Southern Kingdoms. Then, when Hybrids are born, all hell breaks lose...suddenly, two races are one, and things become very complicated very rapidly.

(mind you, i like military thrillers, so a more peaceful senario would be up to you)

Try these ideas, some stuff i thought of from this premise. Tell me if it sounds like what you were thinking :

The Kin live in clans from 100s to 1000s, centered in huge fortified cities called Strongholds, each ruled by a Lord. A perticularly powerful Lord may unite various Strongholds or Holds for short to form a Kingdom. Militarily, they have some riflemen, and mostly pikemen and armoured swordsmen, and some archers. Numbers vary between the Strongholds: some have thousands of soldiers, other have a handfull of militiamen for defense. As natural hunters, these 'armies' are always officials first, warriors second, like knights.

They have two distinct factions: the Kingdoms of the North who are more urbanized and open to trade and exploration, and the Kingdoms of the South, closer to the bear and wolf herds and much more militarized.

Some Kin are Outcasts. They're dangerous, and they've tamed the proto-horses to use as mounts. Even the other Kin fear them, becaus ethy're all outcasts becaus eof horrible crime...imagine an entire 'civilization' of Jeffrey Dhamers and Ed Geins.

They worship their ancesstors, who are burried in the Mountain Halls: fortress tombs dug into the Rockies, aka the Halls of the Ancients. They also have a reverence for the forests. Their militaries have titles like Glade Guard and Knights of the Grove for officers.

Neither side is 'evil' or 'good': they just want to keep their civilization in tact, and they dont want to be conquered by creatures they've never seen before. In the end, they're just trying to get by, and if some see that as meaning war, and others peaceful commerce, then that's becaus ethey feel it's best to survive that way. They mean no ill will, nor do they intend to give themselves over completly.

And i think the Thread title sounds prety good: Adam's Stepchildren. Or, alternitively, Lost Eden. Or does that last one sound like a romace novel?

Keep it up and I'll have to give you co-author credit.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Yes i cant see heavily coated Kin going into the everglades either. That would be a perfect spot for the Europeans to set up shop, as would any humid place, now that i think about it. But the Kin might eventually figure a way around that.

Spanish missions and British forts wouldnt be made of thin walls and wood anymore. They'd almost certainly have stone walls not unlike the great castles of europe, just to protect against giant wolves and bears and huge sloths, and god forbid there is a mammoth stampeed. They'd have to almost use cannon or ballistas to take the damn things down, or would a musket have any effect against a giant creature like that?

Generally, animals stay away from humans unless they have a really good reason. I think if spears can bring down mammoths, multiple musket-shots could. If you were hunting mammoth, probably 4 or 5 men would work together with guns.

Interesting fact: A hunter-gatherer only needs to spend 17 hours a week to provide food for a mate and 2 children.

As for hybridization...it's possible. Tigers and Lions can reproduce, so i see no reason a Kin-Homo Sapien baby wouldnt be possible. I think it'd look like a human with a Kin's muscles and head, or vice versa. It'd probably be weaker than a Kin, but stronger than a normal human, and with light covering of fur.

More of a blending of features, methinks. Better muscles, blended height, I can make some characteristics X-linked.

If you were to write a story, my suggestions would be:

1. The Europeans arrive, establish colonies in the south, and hunker down with an 'agree to disagree' treaty set up. But then, when the Colonials rebel, the British/Spanish (your choice) Empire send their armies to re-conquer teh colonies. The Colonials send an envoy to try and make an alliance with the Strongholds of the Lower Kingdoms. But something goes wrong, and the Kin decide to fight both armies.

2. After the revelution (sucessful), some of the more powefrul Kingdoms want to make a formal, permenant alliance with the Colonial Congress. But others wnat to turn the Homo Sapiens into the next dish on their menus. A Three way war erupts: the Colonials and the Northern Kingdoms against the Southern Kingdoms. Then, when Hybrids are born, all hell breaks lose...suddenly, two races are one, and things become very complicated very rapidly.

1. I don't think a 3-way war would happen, if anything the eastern kingdoms would try and play the 2 sides against each other, or maybe feuds of their own would prompt different Kin warlords to join different sides.

2. Eastern kingdoms benefitting from their partnership with the Hairless might spawn jealousy from the eastern kingdoms and perhaps even the outcast, or maybe Europeans start selling the outcast modern weapons in a "sour grapes" move. No matter what, humans taste terrible.

Try these ideas, some stuff i thought of from this premise. Tell me if it sounds like what you were thinking :

The Kin live in clans from 100s to 1000s, centered in huge fortified cities called Strongholds, each ruled by a Lord. A perticularly powerful Lord may unite various Strongholds or Holds for short to form a Kingdom. Militarily, they have some riflemen, and mostly pikemen and armoured swordsmen, and some archers. Numbers vary between the Strongholds: some have thousands of soldiers, other have a handfull of militiamen for defense. As natural hunters, these 'armies' are always officials first, warriors second, like knights.

Cities based on hunting-gathering cannot be excessively large. 50,000 for their largest seems like the maximum.

They have two distinct factions: the Kingdoms of the North who are more urbanized and open to trade and exploration, and the Kingdoms of the South, closer to the bear and wolf herds and much more militarized.

I don't really know where your "North" and "south" divide. Seems kinda odd.

Some Kin are Outcasts. They're dangerous, and they've tamed the proto-horses to use as mounts. Even the other Kin fear them, becaus ethy're all outcasts becaus eof horrible crime...imagine an entire 'civilization' of Jeffrey Dhamers and Ed Geins.

Cast them out because they have a new, revolutionary belief system or a stygma. They'd be most likely to deal with europeans, because they have no one else to deal with. Eager to make deals, they might even take on shipbuilding.

They worship their ancesstors, who are burried in the Mountain Halls: fortress tombs dug into the Rockies, aka the Halls of the Ancients. They also have a reverence for the forests. Their militaries have titles like Glade Guard and Knights of the Grove for officers.

Groovy.

Neither side is 'evil' or 'good': they just want to keep their civilization in tact, and they dont want to be conquered by creatures they've never seen before. In the end, they're just trying to get by, and if some see that as meaning war, and others peaceful commerce, then that's becaus ethey feel it's best to survive that way. They mean no ill will, nor do they intend to give themselves over completly.

And i think the Thread title sounds prety good: Adam's Stepchildren. Or, alternitively, Lost Eden. Or does that last one sound like a romace novel?

Your Kin are a bit more bloodthirsty than I envisioned. If they go out and kill stuff on a regular basis, they might not be so violent. As for kingdoms, you'd have the Western Lands, the most advanced, the east-lands (Apalachia) which are a bit less-impressive, and the Southern Nations (advanced, but different culture.) There'd be kingdoms and alliances that would put premodern Italy to shame, my friend, and plenty of wide-open spaces in the great plains with only an occasional city-outpost.

And yes, "Lost Eden" is already a romance novel.

Anyone else want to get in on this?