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Evaluate this alt-hist timeline for me please

Posted: 2006-02-26 05:34pm
by Junghalli
I'm starting work on an alt-Draka universe fanfic for another board (may post it here to). Not Drakafic, a different alternate timeline much closer to the original one. Basically, to sum up the premise of it, the Draka suffer a spontaneous character shield failure around 1942.
Please evaluate this TL for seeming implausibilities/blatant stupidity (PS, do keep in mind that I'm making it as close to Sterling's TL as I can, so I won't pretend real plausibility).

1932 -Hitler elected with majority in Germany. F.D. Roosevelt elected President in U.S.; declares "New Deal" for lower classes, Hispanics, etc. Limited recovery.

1936–37 -Civil war in Spain; defeat of Nationalists by 1937. Soviet Republic of Spain established. Germany takes Austria. French and British abandon Czechoslovakia; Sudeten War follows. Clashes on Draka–Japanese and Draka–Soviet borders. Experiments with electrodetection (radar) in several countries. Domination begins long-term project to harness nuclear energy. Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi move to U.S.

1939 -France and Britain guarantee Poland. Eurasian War begins. Nazi–Japanese alliance. Transistor invented in Toronto, State of Ontario. First commercial tape recorder.

1940 -Fall of France. Battle of Britain ends in stalemate; Nazi submarines effectively close Atlantic. Japanese aggression in Southeast Asia produces severe tension with U.S., Australasian Federation.

1941 -Domination attacks Italy with tacit consent of Germany. Germany attacks and defeats Soviet Union. Moscow falls October 1; Germans reach Urals and Caucasus by first snow. Imperial Japan attacks U.S. on December 3rd, occupies eastern Siberia, destroys entire American Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbor. Hawaii, Philippines overrun, West Coast raided, landings made in Panama. U.S. declares war on Japan and Germany.

1942 -January–March: Hawaii overrun by Japanese; widespread atrocities. Philippines conquered; Japanese begin roundup of 900,000 'North Americans' (U.S. citizens from the mainland states); West Coast raided, Acapulco bombarded by battleships lead by Yamato, landings made in Panama.

April: Draka airborne legions seize passes over Caucasus mountains.

German Sixth Army surrenders. Battle of the Kuban; massive armoured engagements. Leapfrogging pincer movements combined with offensive from northwest Kazakhstan shatter German Army Group South. Draka amphibious forces land in Crimea. In September, another front is opened in Balkans, with Draka attack out of the Domination's Bulgarian province. By October, all of the Ukraine is in Draka hands, and the Germans are forced to withdraw their Army Group Center to the eastern frontiers of Poland. Widespread attrocities, public opinion in the US and Britain begins to turn against alliance with the Dominate.

November: Belgrade falls to Arch-Strategos Edgar Tull's 4th Army. Arch-Strategos Estelle Finbogasson's 7th Army reaches Hungarian frontier. Draka airborne forces seize Trieste, reach Adriatic. Ten divisions of German troops cut off in Serbia; many escape to mountains, join partisan forces of Mihailovic.

1943 -U.S. jet fighters and glide bombs inflict severe defeat on Japanese navy in Battle of the Sea of Cortez, defeat attempt to land in Baja California. Japanese evicted from Panama Canal Zone. U.S. submarine fleet begins destruction of Japanese merchant marine on huge scale. U.S., Australasian forces defeat Japanese in New Guinea and begin offensive into Indonesia. U.S. surface navy reappears in Pacific, together with British forces.

April–September: German counter-offensive is allowed to penetrate central Rumania, then cut off by Draka. Draka attack on 1,000-mile front, initially mostly with Janissary forces. Armoured breakthrough into central Poland followed by attack to Baltic; German forces in East Prussia cut off. Widespread attrocities continue in Draka occupied territory, with the Draka making little or no attempt to conceal them from the horrified eyes of the rest of the world. Support for a negotiated peace with Axis begins to gain ground in American, British political circles, as this is increasingly considered a far more palatable alternative than to allow the Draka advance to continue unchecked.

September–December: main Draka offensive begins across north Poland. Vistula and Oder lines forced, Silesia overrun. Heavy casualties on both sides; offensive into Bavaria bogs down in difficult mountain country. Fortress Berlin encircled November 25; Warsaw falls November 29th. German and other European forces manage to contain Draka offensive along upper Danube, Elbe. Outskirts of Hamburg under Draka artillery fire by year's end; slow, grinding offensive continues.

Alliance (basically Anglo–U.S.) aircraft carriers meet, defeat Japanese navy's main strike force west of Hawaii. Reconquest of Hawaii begins; well-armed Japanese garrison resists fanatically. Alliance forces also advancing in eastern Indonesia, again with heavy losses. Japanese begin to strip forces on Asian mainland to meet Alliance threat. U.S. submarines sink more than 40% of Japanese cargo tonnage, begin economic strangulation of Japanese heartland as food, raw materials and petroleum cut off.

December: Dec. 15, Hitler dies—officially of heart attack, actually poisoned by agents of Admiral Canaris, head of German Military Intelligence. Coalition government of military, Nazi party, SS and anti-nazi conservatives takes power, with Herman Goering as Chancellor. ("Fuhrer" is declared a unique position which only the inspired Adolf Hitler could bear.) New regime negotiates conditional surrender with Allied powers in hopes of preventing conquest of Europe by the Draka. Western Allies agree to cease hostilities in exchange for restoration of sovereignty of conquered nations, war reperations, cessation of "Final Solution" policies. Believing themselves capable of conquering Germany on their own and unwilling to give up on the chance for a massive land grab the Draka refuse to sign peace accord, continue offensive across Poland. Japan also refuses to surrender.

1944 -Taos Project detonates first fission bomb (plutonium, shaped-charge implosion type, 40 kilotonnes) on February 1st, in New Mexico. First Draka test (uranium bomb, two sub-critical masses) March 4, in central Sahara. Both countries begin work on series production, fission weapons. Allies begin lend-lease aid to Germany but stop short of sending troops.

April: Draka jet bombers deliver five-weapon nuclear strike against Ruhr valley, Brussels. Conventional offensive smashes through to Rhine; amphibious landings in southern Spain are contained in narrow beachheads.
Western Allies begin Operation Berlin. Allied paratroopers dropped directly into the path of Draka divisions. The Draka cannot advance without engaging neutral American and British troops.
Overeager Draka general tasked with taking Berlin is furious at having his prize snatched away from him, orders storming of Berlin anyway, believing that Allied troops will not actually fight to defend the city. Draka forces clash with Allies in vicious city fighting. Berlin taken, Allied paratroopers mostly killed defending it. In response America, Britain, declare war on the Dominate.

Two nuclear-armed cruise missiles fired from Alliance submarines against main Japanese fleet in lagoon of Truk island, central Pacific. One malfunctions; the other destroys three of the seven remaining Japanese fleet carriers and much else besides. Alliance offensives continue across Pacific and north from Indonesia.

May: Allied troops pour into Germany. Draka offensive halted and then pushed back, Berlin liberated.

June-October: Allied-German advance across Poland and Russia, halt short of Moscow due to onset of winter. Vermacht offensives into Romania, Bulgaria, seize much of Dominate's European territories, advance halted at Istanbul.

December: Tokyo destroyed by cruise missile from Alliance submarine; Imperial family and most high government officials killed, casualties exceed 150,000. New government of fanatical younger officers takes power, vows revenge. Widespread starvation in Japan as imports cut off; 80% of merchant tonnage sunk. Most remaining naval units destroyed in Battle of Philippines. Japanese control now limited to Siberia, eastern China, Korea and the home islands.

1945 April-July: Allied forces resume march across Russia. Dominate armies driven south into Bactria (Afghanistan) and Persia (Iran). Russian Dominate provinces overrun by the Allies.

July: Allies force pass into Persia, begin attack on Tehran.

Posted: 2006-02-26 08:21pm
by DrMckay
all good except:
The tech was leapfrogging a bit too fast, kinda implausable even assuming German scientific cooperation in the ventures of guided missiles, etc. also, what was the Draka's role in worls war I. IF the germans entirely sealed off the Atlantic, England would not get sufficient food and starve. on a large scale. Also, Hitler would have to do something insanley stupid and callous, (perhaps related to the Kregismarine(German Navy) in order for Canaris to kill him. Prehaps also involve the carachter of Oscar Schindler in the "New German" government.

Posted: 2006-02-26 08:38pm
by consequences
DrMckay wrote:all good except:
The tech was leapfrogging a bit too fast, kinda implausable even assuming German scientific cooperation in the ventures of guided missiles, etc. also, what was the Draka's role in worls war I. IF the germans entirely sealed off the Atlantic, England would not get sufficient food and starve. on a large scale. Also, Hitler would have to do something insanley stupid and callous, (perhaps related to the Kregismarine(German Navy) in order for Canaris to kill him. Prehaps also involve the carachter of Oscar Schindler in the "New German" government.

The tech is straight from the original timeline, as are most of the other events.

Draka in WW1 snatched Afghanistan and southern chunks of what would have been part of the Soviet Union originally

Posted: 2006-02-26 08:47pm
by Sea Skimmer
The Draka attacking Italy with the approval of Germany makes no sense to me. The Germans have no reason to wish the Draka to establish a foothold in Europe and a long list of reasons to oppose such a move.

Your timelines Japan also must have about ten times its historical resources and industrial capacity.

Posted: 2006-02-26 08:57pm
by consequences
Sea Skimmer wrote: Your timelines Japan also must have about ten times its historical resources and industrial capacity.
Going by the Drakas anthology, Japan was receiving Draka aid as early as the Russo-Japanese war.

Posted: 2006-02-26 09:01pm
by Sea Skimmer
consequences wrote: Going by the Drakas anthology, Japan was receiving Draka aid as early as the Russo-Japanese war.
It would take an absurd quantity of aid to build up Japan to the point where it could make attacks on the US mainland. They became greatly overextended with there historical level of expansion after all, so they are working up from a ‘capability deficit’. Plus the Draka model of economics and technology is not one a nation of limited resources would want to copy. Plus the US would also be far stronger.

Posted: 2006-02-26 09:16pm
by consequences
Sea Skimmer wrote:
consequences wrote: Going by the Drakas anthology, Japan was receiving Draka aid as early as the Russo-Japanese war.
It would take an absurd quantity of aid to build up Japan to the point where it could make attacks on the US mainland. They became greatly overextended with there historical level of expansion after all, so they are working up from a ‘capability deficit’. Plus the Draka model of economics and technology is not one a nation of limited resources would want to copy. Plus the US would also be far stronger.
Personally, I was thinking more along the lines of more concessions from the Russians at the end of the war, coupled with better pre-WW2 landgrabs with a more consolidated position and better weaponry.

But yeah, it is insanely farfetched to begin with.

Posted: 2006-02-26 10:55pm
by Junghalli
DrMckay wrote:all good except:
The tech was leapfrogging a bit too fast, kinda implausable even assuming German scientific cooperation in the ventures of guided missiles, etc.
That's Sterling's stupidity, not mine. :P I am thinking of turning down the tech development a fair bit. Maybe equivalent to late forties: some jet fighters but mostly prop aircraft, a Draka MBT being roughly equal to a King Tiger etc. But the point of divergence from Sterling's TL is in the beginning of WWII so a lot of the whopping implausibilities of the STL are going to spill over.
DrMckay wrote:IF the germans entirely sealed off the Atlantic, England would not get sufficient food and starve. on a large scale.
Good point. Scratch that part of the TL.
DrMckay wrote:Also, Hitler would have to do something insanley stupid and callous, (perhaps related to the Kregismarine(German Navy) in order for Canaris to kill him.
Ah, there's a quite plausible (IMO) reason for him to do it. The Nazi armies were being belted fairly smartly by a horde of utterly evil psychopaths in service of the most despicable regime in human history, bent on conquering all Europe. Canaris saw the writing on the wall and realized that Germany's only hope for evading what happened to it in STL would be a negotiated surrender with the Allies. But Hitler was basically reacting to the situation as he did in OTL; going into "total victory or death11" mode.
Sea Skimmer wrote:The Draka attacking Italy with the approval of Germany makes no sense to me. The Germans have no reason to wish the Draka to establish a foothold in Europe and a long list of reasons to oppose such a move.
Your timelines Japan also must have about ten times its historical resources and industrial capacity.
It doesn't make much sense to me easier but all that's before the divergence point between my TL and STL (around 1942).
Although I'll probably scale back Japanese gains in the war. Raids on Hawaii instead of an outright conquest of it, and they never touch the US mainland except a few carrier raids.

Posted: 2006-02-26 11:06pm
by Junghalli
Here's the new timeline, revised as per your suggestions. I've considerably slowed Sterling's rather implausible tech development, the tech in this TL will be maybe three to five years ahead of OTL in most areas. However, the divergence is in 1941 so a lot of Sterling's implausibilities will spill over. As I've said, I won't pretend real plausibility here.

1932 -Hitler elected with majority in Germany. F.D. Roosevelt elected President in U.S.; declares "New Deal" for lower classes, Hispanics, etc. Limited recovery.

1936–37 -Civil war in Spain; defeat of Nationalists by 1937. Soviet Republic of Spain established. Germany takes Austria. French and British abandon Czechoslovakia; Sudeten War follows. Clashes on Draka–Japanese and Draka–Soviet borders. Experiments with electrodetection (radar) in several countries. Domination begins long-term project to harness nuclear energy. Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi move to U.S.

1939 -France and Britain guarantee Poland. Eurasian War begins. Nazi–Japanese alliance. Transistor invented in Toronto, State of Ontario. First commercial tape recorder.

1940 -Fall of France. Battle of Britain ends in stalemate. Japanese aggression in Southeast Asia produces severe tension with U.S., Australasian Federation.

1941 -Domination attacks Italy with tacit consent of Germany. Germany attacks and defeats Soviet Union. Moscow falls October 1; Germans reach Urals and Caucasus by first snow. Imperial Japan attacks U.S. on December 3rd, occupies eastern Siberia, destroys entire American Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbor. Philippines overrun. U.S. declares war on Japan and Germany.

1942 -January–March: Hawaii bombed by Japanese; widespread atrocities. Philippines conquered; Japanese begin roundup of 900,000 'North Americans' (U.S. citizens from the mainland states); West Coast subjected to Japanese carrier raids.

April: Draka airborne legions seize passes over Caucasus mountains.

German Sixth Army surrenders. Battle of the Kuban; massive armoured engagements. Leapfrogging pincer movements combined with offensive from northwest Kazakhstan shatter German Army Group South. Draka amphibious forces land in Crimea. In September, another front is opened in Balkans, with Draka attack out of the Domination's Bulgarian province. By October, all of the Ukraine is in Draka hands, and the Germans are forced to withdraw their Army Group Center to the eastern frontiers of Poland. Widespread attrocities, public opinion in the US and Britain begins to turn against alliance with the Dominate.

November: Belgrade falls to Arch-Strategos Edgar Tull's 4th Army. Arch-Strategos Estelle Finbogasson's 7th Army reaches Hungarian frontier. Draka airborne forces seize Trieste, reach Adriatic. Ten divisions of German troops cut off in Serbia; many escape to mountains, join partisan forces of Mihailovic.

1943 –USN carrier fleet inflicts severe defeat on Japanese navy in Battle of the Sea of Cortez. U.S. submarine fleet begins destruction of Japanese merchant marine on huge scale. U.S., Australasian forces defeat Japanese in New Guinea and begin offensive into Indonesia. U.S. surface navy reappears in Pacific, together with British forces.

April–September: German counter-offensive is allowed to penetrate central Rumania, then cut off by Draka. Draka attack on 1,000-mile front, initially mostly with Janissary forces. Armoured breakthrough into central Poland followed by attack to Baltic; German forces in East Prussia cut off. Widespread attrocities continue in Draka occupied territory, with the Draka making little or no attempt to conceal them from the horrified eyes of the rest of the world. Support for a negotiated peace with Axis begins to gain ground in American, British political circles, as this is increasingly considered a far more palatable alternative than to allow the Draka advance to continue unchecked.

September–December: main Draka offensive begins across north Poland. Vistula and Oder lines forced, Silesia overrun. Heavy casualties on both sides; offensive into Bavaria bogs down in difficult mountain country. Fortress Berlin encircled November 25; Warsaw falls November 29th. German and other European forces manage to contain Draka offensive along upper Danube, Elbe. Outskirts of Hamburg under Draka artillery fire by year's end; slow, grinding offensive continues.

Alliance (basically Anglo–U.S.) aircraft carriers meet, defeat Japanese navy's main strike force east of Hawaii. Alliance forces advancing in eastern Indonesia, again with heavy losses. Japanese begin to strip forces on Asian mainland to meet Alliance threat. U.S. submarines sink more than 40% of Japanese cargo tonnage, begin economic strangulation of Japanese heartland as food, raw materials and petroleum cut off.

December: Dec. 15, Hitler dies—officially of heart attack, actually poisoned by agents of Admiral Canaris, head of German Military Intelligence. Coalition government of military, Nazi party, SS and anti-nazi conservatives takes power, with Herman Goering as Chancellor. ("Fuhrer" is declared a unique position which only the inspired Adolf Hitler could bear.) New regime negotiates conditional surrender with Allied powers in hopes of preventing conquest of Europe by the Draka. Western Allies agree to cease hostilities in exchange for restoration of sovereignty of conquered nations, war reperations, cessation of "Final Solution" policies. Believing themselves capable of conquering Germany on their own and unwilling to give up on the chance for a massive land grab the Draka refuse to sign peace accord, continue offensive across Poland. Japan also refuses to surrender.

1944 -Taos Project detonates first fission bomb (plutonium, shaped-charge implosion type, 40 kilotonnes) on February 1st, in New Mexico. First Draka test (uranium bomb, two sub-critical masses) March 4, in central Sahara. Both countries begin work on series production, fission weapons. Allies begin lend-lease aid to Germany but stop short of sending troops.

April: Draka bombers deliver five-weapon nuclear strike against Ruhr valley, Brussels. Conventional offensive smashes through to Rhine; amphibious landings in southern Spain are contained in narrow beachheads.
Western Allies begin Operation Berlin. Allied paratroopers dropped directly into the path of Draka divisions. The Draka cannot advance without engaging neutral American and British troops.
Overeager Draka general tasked with taking Berlin is furious at having his prize snatched away from him, orders storming of Berlin anyway, believing that Allied troops will not actually fight to defend the city. Draka forces clash with Allies in vicious city fighting. Berlin taken, Allied paratroopers mostly killed defending it. In response America, Britain, declare war on the Dominate.

May: Allied troops pour into Germany. Draka offensive halted and then pushed back, Berlin liberated.

June-October: Allied-German advance across Poland and Russia, halt short of Moscow due to onset of winter. Vermacht offensives into Romania, Bulgaria, seize much of Dominate's European territories, advance halted at Istanbul.

December: Tokyo destroyed by B-29 carried nuclear bomb. Imperial family and most high government officials killed, casualties exceed 150,000. New government of fanatical younger officers takes power, vows revenge. Widespread starvation in Japan as imports cut off; 80% of merchant tonnage sunk. Most remaining naval units destroyed in Battle of Philippines. Japanese control now limited to Siberia, eastern China, Korea and the home islands.

1945 April-July: Allied forces resume march across Russia. Dominate armies driven south into Bactria (Afghanistan) and Persia (Iran). Russian Dominate provinces overrun by the Allies.

July: Allies force pass into Persia, begin attack on Tehran.

Posted: 2006-02-27 02:58pm
by Glocksman
Didn't Hitler and Mussolini back Franco in the Spanish Civil War here as they did IRL?

Posted: 2006-02-27 03:40pm
by Junghalli
Glocksman wrote:Didn't Hitler and Mussolini back Franco in the Spanish Civil War here as they did IRL?
No, there was a Soviet Republic of Spain. Don't ask me why, but it's before the divergence point of this TL.

Ooh, chalk up another utterly ludicrous bit of wank from Sterling. Apparently in STL the Draka attacked a neutral country and the Allies were just peachy with it. :roll:

Posted: 2006-02-27 04:05pm
by Glocksman
Junghalli wrote:
Glocksman wrote:Didn't Hitler and Mussolini back Franco in the Spanish Civil War here as they did IRL?
No, there was a Soviet Republic of Spain. Don't ask me why, but it's before the divergence point of this TL.

Ooh, chalk up another utterly ludicrous bit of wank from Sterling. Apparently in STL the Draka attacked a neutral country and the Allies were just peachy with it. :roll:
Wouldn't having a Soviet Spain alter the dynamics of Continental politics enough that Britain and France just might be willing to cast Poland to Hitler in order to have him as a bulwark against both the Reds and the Draka?

Posted: 2006-02-27 04:16pm
by frogcurry
Clashes on the Draka-Japanese border will be a little hard - the Draka are to the west of Kazakhstan I believe, the Japs in Korea and potentially Manchuko . They shouldn't have any borders unless Japan controls a huge chunk of Asia or the Dominate is way too big.

Also the Japanese territory should not include Siberia. They have no military or economic benefit to war with the Soviets (too busy in China). And if they were to fight such a war they might be in a position to take the oil fields or at least support the Germans in taking them - removing the need for a war with the USA. This is not too big a thing admittedly but it seems a bit off.

Posted: 2006-02-27 06:50pm
by Junghalli
frogcurry wrote:Clashes on the Draka-Japanese border will be a little hard - the Draka are to the west of Kazakhstan I believe, the Japs in Korea and potentially Manchuko.
At some point in STL pre-WWII the Draka grabbed all of what was the southern Soviet sattelite republics in OTL. They also took parts of western China.
I don't like it any better than you do...
Also the Japanese territory should not include Siberia.
That has been changed. Thanks.