StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I've had an idea cooking for a while but I don't know if it's good:

I call it Horsetrading:

In this worldwar, Britian explodes a nuke in Jerusalem, destorying the city and causing a crisis in Atvar's command. He had intended for the not-Empires to keep what land they had, and give back territory to the USSR, the Reich and America, but with the British bomb this extends to Britain. And so the great game begins; Britian for the last time, is the broker in world affairs. Atvar wants the Middle East and Austalia, but he'll have to give up other things to Britian in return. Will Iraq be sacrificed for a free Mexico, will Australia be given up, partioned? Can Hitler get the Race to leave Europe with British concessions. How much of the "British Empire" will the Race consider to be British (like is Canada and New Zealand British territory or different.) This might go into the colonization era and I have my ideas, I might even make it set in a slightly alternate world of my own making, but I want to know what you think...

I don't know if Atvar would give up North Africa and the Middle East. Actually, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't, the climate is just too perfect for them.

A split of Western and Eastern Australia would be possible. The Western half is/was sparsely inhabited, and the interior is what the Race likes in terms of climate. Maybe the Brits get the coastal cities in Australia-the series isn't too clear on when exactly Sydney and Melbourne get glassed.

India's probably the biggest possibility for a British return, especially if it means the British concede the Middle East and Africa. Alternatively, South Africa might remain free instead, along with Guiana and maybe Hong Kong. I could see India for two reasons-the climate is mostly too wet for the Race to be really comfortable, and the number of humans might mean Atvar's willing to let them be someone else's problem.

If they do keep India, expect an interesting relationship to develop there to keep the Brits busy. As a concession for giving up South America, Africa, most of Australia, and the Middle East, maybe the Race lets Mexico or Korea stay in human hands.

I just don't see the Middle East and Africa being handed back. At all. I also don't see the Brits nuking Jerusalem-more trouble post-war than it's probably worth. Gunning for Cairo or one of the other major Race-held Arab cities, sure, but not Jerusalem.

The Race is obliged to withdraw from all territory of the nuclear powers, including Britain. The Brits would have nuked Jerusalem because JERUSALEM WAS THE LAST BATTLE OF THE WAR! They let the Race come in and blew them up, like the Americans in Chicago. They also manage to swarm the retaliation bomber headed towards London and shot the sumbitch down.

But you're right, the Race would not give up the Outback, North Africa or the Middle East for anything. That's why they would be willing to trade for it. The Brits have no interest in these, except Australia, because with the rise of hydrogen, and likely treaties of drilling rights for royalties paid to Atvar's Vicroyalty, they'd still get oil in the meantime.

I figure a square km2 per km2 exchange in order. I did my homework and assuming Spain, Portugal, and Thrace are not under German contol of protection AND the Race conquered Madagasgar, and we really have no reason except the CRAPTASTIC map at the beginning of Colonization, especially as they conquered British occupied Madagasgar but not Indochina or Indonesia from the much weaker Japanese.

Occupied British territory:

7,741,220 km2 Australia (2,709,427 km2 wanted at 35%, 2,322,366 km2 at 30 %)

143,998 km² Bangladesh

22,966 km² Belize

581,730 km² Botswana

475,442 km² Cameroon

10,380 km² The Gambia

238,534 km² Ghana

214,969 km² Guyana

3,287,590 km² India

580,367 km² Kenya

30,355 km² Lesotho

118,484 km² Malawi

131,313 km2 West Malaysia

824,292 km² Namibia

923,768 km² Nigeria

880,254 km² Pakistan

71,740 km² Sierra Leone

699 km² Singapore

1,221,037 km² South Africa

17,364 km² Swaziland

945,087 km² Tanzania

236,040 km² Uganda

752,618 km² Zambia

390,757 km² Zimbabwe

665 km2 Bahrain

47,000 km² Bhutan

676,578 km² Burma

1,001,286 km2 Egypt (1,001,449 km² minus 163-km2 Seuz Canal Zone)

1,103 km² Hong Kong

438,317 km² Iraq

17,818 km² Kuwait

309,500 km² Oman

22,145 km² Israel

6,220 km² Palestine

11,437 km² Qatar

137,600 km² British Somaliland

332,970 km² Aden Protectorate

2,505,813 km² Sudan

89,342 km² Jordan

83,600 km² United Arab Emirates

Total Occupied Area: 25,522,398 km2

Continents to liberate:

South America 17,840,000 km² occupied, total loss

North America 2,470,983 km2 occupied

22,966 km² Belize

51,100 km2 Costa Rica

21,040 km2 El Salvador

108,890 km2 Guatemala

112,090 km2 Honduras

1,972,550 km2 Mexico

129,494 km2 Nicaragua

52,853 km2 Panama

Latin America sans Mexico: 498,433 km2

Total Western Hemisphere liberation: 20,310,983 km2

Left Territory: 5,211,415 km2

European states to liberate:

505,992 km² Spain

583,562 km2 Turkey (783,562 km² -200,000 km2 Kurdistan)

Poland (divided between Reich and USSR, British administration, no exchange)

92,391 km² Portugal

Total: 1,181,945 km2

Left Territory: 4,029,470 km2

Dominions to liberate:

Australia: 2,322,366 km2 (30% of Australia, mostly the eastern seaboard to the mountains, the Costal Control zone, maybe 25 miles around the coast, and a thinner sliver for the Perth Enclave. This is necessary because I don’t think Atvar will give up the Outback at any price. Besides, it’s useless for humans.)

Territory left: 1,707104 km2

South Africa: 1,221,307 km2 (486,067 km2 remaining)

And with the rest, they can either totally flesh out a defensible border, with the small chiefdoms and the southern part of Mozambique to the Zambezi, or buy Korea, just to give the Race a headache (220186 km2 for a total of 265,881 km2 to flesh out the border of South Africa or Australia) and take some pressure off the Japanese, and like giving the Krauts Turkey, it establishes rapprochement in real terms.

Getting Turkey and putting it in the Reich's hands is done to reconsile with Germany, and a Free Korea, while no the Japanese ideal, does make nice with the Japanese government, which they need for raw materials now. Foretunately, the Race is such a threat that close cooperation is a necessity now. Hitler is different, in that though he did do Eggplant, he wanted a weak, human 'trip wire' to keep the Reich and the Bolsheviks away from one another. In the book it states until the withdraw of the Germans, the Blatics were free of Soviets and were fighting them after Cairo. I think even Stalin would have prefered to no have a border with Germany to prevent Germany from attacking until the Union was ready.

Thus relations are aided greatly with the Reich, the Americans and the Japanese. It also gives the British a base on which they could build a more confederated Commonwealth to preserve some sense of victory and Empire. They also become heroes to the Continental Europeans, Hispanics and the Koreans. It’s not much for the Empire, but it’s more than they got historically. Feel free to criticize

Here's my proposed map:


The megenta countries are minor members of the United Nations (only meant in the World War II sense), along with UKBE and USA. Himmler is annoyed that parts of Europe are Allies, but it's better than the Lizards. Best of all, no World War III (not my idea, but that's the result)

The Grey countries are part of the European Federation, (Bundes Europa) a saner name than the Greater German Reich, but functions much the same.

Brown represents the Italian Empire. Basicly a puppet of Hitler, Mussolini has overseen one of the world's best recoveries following World War II and Fascism is making headway in Political Science as it moderates from the militarism of the 30s and 40s. They are part of the European Federation.

Pink represents the United Kingdoms of the British Empire, a reformulation of the British Commonwealth. It is somewhat of a confederation, and somewhat of a federation, depending on the government.
Kingdoms include:
England
Scotland
Ireland
Wales
Canada
South Africa
Austalia (what's left of it)
New Zealand
Jamaica (including all Carribean islands)
Cyprus

Colonial possessions include:
Cylon
Suez Canal Zone
Hong Kong
Singapore
Belize
Guyana (compolation of British, Dutch and French colonies)


Free France was liquidated by the British in late 1945. Britian is fourth behind the Reich, the US and the USSR, but it's MUCH closer than in Colonization. Of the Allies, only UKBE, Korea, Spain and Portugal (pressure by UKBE PM Benjamin "Samovar" Merriweather on Salazar, but that's another story) are monarchies.

If the Brits have too much of Australia, I can fix that. Hope you like!

I think the Lizards would've kept at least some of the Australian coast. I'm also not sure about them giving up all of South America. Parts of it-Argentina comes to mind-would be close enough to be suitable for the Race's agriculture.

There's no way Atvar would cede more than half of the territory he's conquered. If Britain tries to play hardball, he can glass London and sleep well at night, knowing that he's going to keep ALL of the british empire.

Giving up major population centers or areas that aren't good for the Race climatically are one thing. Giving up everything is entirely different. Now that I think about it, I don't see them giving back Mexico or really any of the rest of Latin America. I can see South Africa, the Aussie coast, and maybe even a chunk of India-it's way too wet and there's a ton of people there with odd cultures and customs, and the Race probably doesn't want the headache.

It still leaves Great Britian in an immensely better position then they were in the original TL.

There are three issues to consider:

1. If Straha were made Fleetlord MAYBE the Race would pkay hardball. Atvar would not; he is an honorable being and he would apply the same standards to Britain as any other not-empire. Atvar would rather chew off his hand, but the proper way of doing things must prevail. Several times this happens when we understand that Atvar is nobody's fool, but tradition makes him unable to even deal with Straha.

2. Britain along with the Big Three has more nukes and THIS is what convinces Atvar to call the Cairo peace conference. The Race physically CANNOT glass even the British Empire, because it's major Nuke carrier was destroyed by Big Bertha in the opening days of the invasion. He has maybe a dozen more nukes and that's it. He has NO means to produce more, fusion engines cannot make nukes, except to land a ship and overdrive the reactor.

3. None of the Big Five are out of the game yet by ANY stretch. Moreover, as Turtledove paints it, they are one the verge of going on a general offensive. The Tosevites were impossible to break without a general nuclear strike, which as #2 points out, is now impoosible.

The Race doen't give up EVERYTHING; I'd love it if I could make that happen, but no. They still maintain most of Africa, where the Savana and desert is perfect for them, the middle east, and India is not a bad place for the Race AT ALL, barring a little rainy season, September through January. Plus, the big prize, the Outback is theirs. Why they would be interested in anyone's coastline is beyond me; they don't use aquatic ships, and certainly don't see the need for them for trading purposes. The only reason the Brits would want the coast is to make it look like they've hemmed in the Race, and that is something Atvar will gladly humor, he'll get dark comedy out of it himself. I really do like Atvar.

So in conclusion, if Straha was Fleetlord, I'd say the Brits couldn't get more out of him than the eastern 20% of Austalia with a sliver on the west side, South Africa and the Race out of Europe.

But Atvar is the Fleetlord and he will swallow his pride to take The Outback, most of Asia, and most of Africa. It's not what he wanted, but frankly ANYTHING less than total conquest will disgrace him, and if he was willing to call a truce in Worldwar, he'd be willing, moreso even, to call one in this timeline.

South America, however, has cold deserts. The Atacama desert in Chile, for example, has temperature from 0 (freezing) to 25 degrees Celsius (or only about 77 degrees Fahrenheit). Aregentina's drier parts (and there aren't any real deserts in the sandy, Lizard sense) have similarly cold weather. Most of the rest, of course, is either freezing or tropical/subtropical. Much of Central America is tropical, too, leaving only parts of Mexico that the Race can comfortably inhabit. Giving the problems of maintaining the Mexico territory surrounded by the US and a free South America, it's not inconceivable that the Race would pull out, in return for Australia. Though, the Race will still probably keep northern Mexico. If they do pull out, the Race would probably take the south-central and east-central coast of Australia, while ceding some of northern Australia, with no little corridors of land connecting east and west Australia. This would match Australia's geographical areas better (the Lizards get the desert, while Britain/Australia gets the more temperate coastal regions), and it would produce a clearer politcal boundary.

The Race might give back India if they're smart (the Race certainly never seemed to figure out what they were going to do with it). And in the coming years, if they're even smarter, they'll give up on East Asia completely. East Asian deserts, like Mongolia, are also cold and inhosbitable to the Race. Trying to hold onto them would just mean stretching the Race's suplies and soliers very significantly, and for little benefit in return. The only core regions for the Race, really, are in the Middle East and Africa, with possible outposts in northern Mexico and the Australian outback (though the US will probably press for the withdrawal of the Race from the Americas completely, and as I stated above, given the logistics, the Race might comply).

EDIT: I started on this before Konig15 posted. Ok, it's possible the Race will cede Australia's coastline. I'd much rather knock the Race out of the Americas, though, and I'm not sure Atvar would do both, though it's a strong possiblity (that is, enough for you to do so in a fanfic, if that's what you want).

Uh, there's a problem with your map. In Worldwar Japan has Korea and a good chunk of Manchuria, I believe.

[quote="Konig15"]
824,292 km² Namibia

much the same.

Brown represents the Italian Empire. Basicly a puppet of Hitler, Mussolini has overseen one of the world's best recoveries following World War II and Fascism is making headway in Political Science as it moderates from the militarism of the 30s and 40s. They are part of the European Federation.

[quote]


Why would Italy have the fastest recovery? Both before and during the war Mussolini's government was one of the most inneficient and corrupt in Europe. That is one of the reasons why Italy did so poorly during the war. Also, militarism is an essential element of fascism and you should explain how and why fascism is able to moderate itself.

Uh, there's a problem with your map. In Worldwar Japan has Korea and a good chunk of Manchuria, I believe.

Ah my good captain, you are refering to the fact that Japan annexed Korea outright in 1910 and set up the puppet of Manchuko in 1931 with "Henry" Pu Yi, the last Machu Emperor as Emperor of the new state. I don't think, given Japan's MASSIVE and well known atrocties against the Koreans, the Brits would hand Korea back to them outright. An independent Korea would work just as well.

Turkey on the other hand is used as a dumping ground for Czechs and other 'undisiables' Hitler cannot or will not kill to make room for SOME Lebensraum. The Turks are rounded up and put in the central porvinces, arid and poverty striken:



Yes the Germans used the Turks as laborers that worked for pitence, ut's just in this world the Germans are more honest about it. German propoganda is aimed show the world there cleansing was justice for the crimes of extermninating the Ayssrians, the Armenians, some Georgians and Greeks before during and after WWI. I doubt anyone would really care either way. The coastal areas are for settlement by Greeks, espeically Constnainople, Bithinia and Smyrna seclave, the rest for Italians, slavs, French settlers and some disesent Germans. I imagine Hitler's slowly Germanizing the Dutch, Flemish and cleasing the borders of Wallonia, Czechland and France in preperation for eventual Anschluss.

Why would Italy have the fastest recovery? Both before and during the war Mussolini's government was one of the most inneficient and corrupt in Europe. That is one of the reasons why Italy did so poorly during the war. Also, militarism is an essential element of fascism and you should explain how and why fascism is able to moderate itself.

Sean, my good man, Mussolini's Italy had one of the fastest recoveries in Europe under Mussolini after WWI. After WWII, the Italain recovery, pound for pound was greater than the German one. I'm not saying Mussolini was responsible for either one, but sometimes the best thing a leader can do is let things alone and not interfere. Mussloini for all his talk of "Corporatism" more or less left business, big and small alone for most of his administration.

In this fanfic, Mussolini goes Pinochet and gets the best American economists he can, a sort of Chicage boys and lets them work their magic. Like I said, this is just an extrapolation of what happened in Italy historically, and even the Italians I know, uberpatriots all of them, never say good things about the government being efficient. In fact it's an article of fact ALL Italian governments are corrupt and incompetent and ineffiecient, it's only a better of how much in what degree.

Konig15 wrote:

In this fanfic, Mussolini goes Pinochet and gets the best American economists he can, a sort of Chicage boys and lets them work their magic. Like I said, this is just an extrapolation of what happened in Italy historically, and even the Italians I know, uberpatriots all of them, never say good things about the government being efficient. In fact it's an article of fact ALL Italian governments are corrupt and incompetent and ineffiecient, it's only a better of how much in what degree.

What magic? The Chicago Boys were a bunch of quacks who helped to wreck Chile's economy under Pinochet with their shock therapy. The average growth of Chile's economy during the sixteen years of Pinochet's rule was the slowest of any Latin American country despite the occasional soaring growth. After adjusting for inflation, in 1989 most Chilean workers made less than they did in 1973 and economic inequality grew severely. Here is an analysis of the Chicago Boys in Chile. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-chichile.htm

It is too simplistic to say that Mussolini left business alone during his administration. He was put in power by big business in order to raise corporate profits and he did that by bashing unions and lowering the standard of living of the Italian people. http://www.michaelparenti.org/RationalFascism.html

Konig15 wrote:Ah my good captain, you are refering to the fact that Japan annexed Korea outright in 1910 and set up the puppet of Manchuko in 1931 with "Henry" Pu Yi, the last Machu Emperor as Emperor of the new state. I don't think, given Japan's MASSIVE and well known atrocties against the Koreans, the Brits would hand Korea back to them outright. An independent Korea would work just as well.

Britain is in a position to do exactly NOTHING in the far-east during the Worldwar books. Japan had free reign, and Britain setting off a single nuclear device in Jerusalem isn't going to do jack to change that. In your hypothetical scenario I believe you are making a number of unfounded assumptions which are unsupportable. America set off a nuke and didn't get anyone out of Mexico, and Russia and Germany both with nukes couldn't scare the Race out of Poland.

Yet, you seem completely and unflappably positive that a SINGLE nuclear device from England will drive the Race completely out of central america, south america, and the far east, which just won't be happening. I don't know when exactly you set your hypothetical bombings, but at pretty much every stage of history since the Race invades, it not only has technological superiority but also numerical superiority against any single nation it faces. A british nuke in Jerusalem is going to get a few matching initiations over the southern half of Britain, and maybe Dublin for good measure. England had NO troops, ships, or resources in the Indian or pacific at the end of WWII, so their push to get back Australia is going to be them just screaming into a big nuclear wind.

At the end of Worldwar the race ONLY ceeded territory it could not easily use. It didn't want any part of Canada, europe, or northern Asia because the climate wouldn't support their ecology. Mexico and Australia are two places which are perfect for them, and they aren't giving them up easily. The "big five" was fighting an incredibly desperate battle against the Race, and it was only after they started using nukes against CONTESTED cities that Atvar decided to cut his losses. The Race still had enough nukes to ruin everyone's day, which is why a four-way cold war was the outcome.

Now, if you can explain why the Race would ceede uncontested lands it has occupied pretty much from the start of the invasion because a single nuke went off in a city that is (for the race) more trouble than it is worth, I'd be happy to hear.

P.S. Inline that map, its screwing the formatting.

edit:


I stand corrected. The race occupied all of China and the Korean penninsula, which means there's fuckall England can do to make it free.

OK, Captain, it appears I didn't explain myself:
Your map actually helps me, and BTW thank you, I've been looking for that map.

The Battle of Jerusalem occured at the end of the war. (44-45) About a week later the Americans detonate ANOTHER nuclear bomb in someplace like Nebraska, and Atvar calls for a conference to aviod "contamenating" Tosev anymore. The difference between the "Big Three" and the "Lesser Two" are nuclear weapons. It is that simple, Britian and Japan had not set off nukes, so the Race says, if it's in dispute, get the hell out, which is why Indochina reamins in Japanese hands, but the Chinese coast does not, which is depicted as still being contested by the Imperial Army.

The big three form a united to front to get the Race out of ALL their territory. The United States will not except anything less than total evacuation form all US territory. It is likely, had the race conquered it, they would have to give that back too. The Reich is funny because it is a tightly bound alliance that encourages Atvar to view it as a block like the Soviet Union technically is. so even technivally independant nations like Bulgaria are evacuated. Atvar tried to give Poland to ANYONE, seeing how it was indefensible if the Reich and the USSR invaded at once. But the Reich and the Soviets

Everything I have said thus far is cannon. Now let's introduce Britian's nukes:

Britian, as per protocol, will be invited to the Cairo summit, as it meets the sole requirement of attendence. The Big Four will quickly colude like the Big Three. They will ALL demand all of Britian's territory be repatriated because if the Race dishonors itself by not doing so it cannot be trusted to leave the United States, the USSR or elsewhere. Failure to do so will mean going back to war, and the hiatus helps the crazy Big Uglies, who in classic Human style are pretared to live on a radioactive rock, as long as it's THEIR radioactive rock. Atvar knows this and in diplomacy it scares the hell out of him. Several times all powers, including the US state they WILL go to war if there is an unacceptable withdraw. Even with Straha, the negotiations continue.

Straha would bully Britian around, they are the only Tosevites to drive the Race back in the war, they are essentialy in a better strategic position than anyone, they are weak and he knows the Britons will 'come to reason' and the result would be something like the following:



That's about the least consessions the new Fleetlord would have to make. They are not big ones, and compariable to loss of territory in the USSR and Reich. He'd probably give up more if the climate didn't suit the race (like the jungles of Thailand and Malaysia)

The Free Baltic States and Allied occupied Poland depend EXCLUSIVEY on the idea Hitler, seeing the elephant realizes that the important thing is to both keep the Race out of Europe AND create a buffer zone to prevent another Russo-German War. The Reich is more concerned about bigger fish...or reptiles.

However, Atvar is Atvar, he is an honorable creature. Both because of Big Ugly political pressure and his nature, he will give back all British territory to secure SOME part of Tosev. Remember merely talking to the Big Uglies like this is a disgrace, diminishing returns of shame apply here. This is why the British can negotiate, as the British have the best real estate on Tosev as far as the Race is concerned. Besides, Sudan is GREAT for Lizards, Brazil is not. Latin America is of no real use for the Race except to exile fanatic Shia clerics to Argentina. It's an easy loss except for pride. Furthermore, it shortens the long borders the Race has with the Big Uglies significantly, allowing them to fortify a border that goes from Cassablance to Vladivolstok.

Atvar MIGHT play hardball on the borders with Austalia, but everyone knows the British and the Race will play rough for their share of the Land Down Under. The Brits will definatle wan the East and Weat coasts, and I think the Great Diving range is where both will find a satisafactory border on the East Coast. Yes, I know I didn't draw the border there, the map is a demo, not final.

As ofr Korea, that's why it's called Horetrading. If the Brits get Korea, it has NOTHING to do with power projection. They get it by sacrificing 220,186 km2 territory elsewhere. The Japanes are consulted ahead of time and told, that the Empire of Korea will be resestablished with Anglo-America garuntees, and Japan being the weakest can only comply and be greatful that the Race isn't sitting on the other side of the Tushima Straight. The Japanese are MUCH weaker than even Britian; it's new industrial heartland in Manchuria being a total loss and Tokyo got nuked, and they were 1/16th of the US industrially to begin with. Gerneally it's better for both the Reich and the Japanese to have borders or near borders with the Allies, rather than the Race, if only because they are so much weaker than the Race and can be diplomatically isolated and attacked.

Anyway, I don't think the Race would object to leaving Hong Kong, Suez, Panama Canal Zone, and Singapore in anycase. These are merely outposts and too small to pose a real threat.

About the Chicago boys, give me a couple of days, I got other stuff brewing and then I'll make a porper argument. I wanna make sure it's a good one.

Konig15 wrote:Everything I have said thus far is cannon. Now let's introduce Britian's nukes:

Britian, as per protocol, will be invited to the Cairo summit, as it meets the sole requirement of attendence. The Big Four will quickly colude like the Big Three. They will ALL demand all of Britian's territory be repatriated because if the Race dishonors itself by not doing so it cannot be trusted to leave the United States, the USSR or elsewhere. Failure to do so will mean going back to war, and the hiatus helps the crazy Big Uglies, who in classic Human style are pretared to live on a radioactive rock, as long as it's THEIR radioactive rock. Atvar knows this and in diplomacy it scares the hell out of him. Several times all powers, including the US state they WILL go to war if there is an unacceptable withdraw. Even with Straha, the negotiations continue.

I don't think you are remembering how desperate the allies were at the end of the war. Something like EIGHT American cities had been destroyed prior to the battle of Chicago, and America and her allies aren't in a point to "demand" anything. The Soviets were running on hope and prayer, and only several widespread defections helped turn the russian front.

Straha would bully Britian around, they are the only Tosevites to drive the Race back in the war, they are essentialy in a better strategic position than anyone, they are weak and he knows the Britons will 'come to reason' and the result would be something like the following:

Britain only "Drove back" the Race because the Race did a really stupid airborne invasion of southern england without sufficient followthrough. They went for their own "blitzkrieg" and when that didn't work they went back to fighting on the continent and stayed to airstrikes.

[img]-%20Inline%20your%20maps![/img]

That's about the least consessions the new Fleetlord would have to make. They are not big ones, and compariable to loss of territory in the USSR and Reich. He'd probably give up more if the climate didn't suit the race (like the jungles of Thailand and Malaysia)

However, Atvar is Atvar, he is an honorable creature. Both because of Big Ugly political pressure and his nature, he will give back all British territory to secure SOME part of Tosev. Remember merely talking to the Big Uglies like this is a disgrace, diminishing returns of shame apply here. This is why the British can negotiate, as the British have the best real estate on Tosev as far as the Race is concerned. Besides, Sudan is GREAT for Lizards, Brazil is not. Latin America is of no real use for the Race except to exile fanatic Shia clerics to Argentina. It's an easy loss except for pride. Furthermore, it shortens the long borders the Race has with the Big Uglies significantly, allowing them to fortify a border that goes from Cassablance to Vladivolstok.

The fleetlord has to make NO concessions. All territory ceeded to the allies in the books was contested at the time of the ceasefire. All of the land you want to "restore" to the british empire was firmly in the hands of the Race. You are ignoring that Atvar is there to CONQUER Earth. His mission is to secure, pacify, and prepare for colonization. He isn't going to ceede over HALF of the territory he's conquered and an entire continent for some vagaries of goodwill from the weakest of the four nuclear-capable empires.

Atvar MIGHT play hardball on the borders with Austalia, but everyone knows the British and the Race will play rough for their share of the Land Down Under. The Brits will definatle wan the East and Weat coasts, and I think the Great Diving range is where both will find a satisafactory border on the East Coast. Yes, I know I didn't draw the border there, the map is a demo, not final.

If Britain demands Australia, the Race will tell them to go fuck themselves. It is the MOST DESIRABLE piece of land for them on earth. An entire continent suited to their ecology, far from any agressive nations and sparsely populated. At best the Race will allow England to evacuate/re-settle citizens who want out, but there will be no british political or military enclaves on Australia. I don't know if you live in Australia or what, but you're bending all laws of reason to try and keep it in British hands, and it won't happen.

As ofr Korea, that's why it's called Horetrading. If the Brits get Korea, it has NOTHING to do with power projection. They get it by sacrificing 220,186 km2 territory elsewhere. The Japanes are consulted ahead of time and told, that the Empire of Korea will be resestablished with Anglo-America garuntees, and Japan being the weakest can only comply and be greatful that the Race isn't sitting on the other side of the Tushima Straight. The Japanese are MUCH weaker than even Britian; it's new industrial heartland in Manchuria being a total loss and Tokyo got nuked, and they were 1/16th of the US industrially to begin with. Gerneally it's better for both the Reich and the Japanese to have borders or near borders with the Allies, rather than the Race, if only because they are so much weaker than the Race and can be diplomatically isolated and attacked.

You think this is a numbers-game for the Race? You think Atvar's going to say "Hurrr... ok, that's 220,000 square kilometers, where do you want your 220,000 kilometer chunk of land that I own to be?" The british do NOT have any bargaining chips at this table, and being as they contributed the least out of any of the free nations to the fight, I doubt anyone is going to stick their neck out for them. Britain may keep South Africa, and they MIGHT get to keep the Guyanas if Atvar feels generous, but he wants his territories useful and SECURE. He's not going to leave british daggers lying around pointed at his heart, and that's exactly what you're suggesting.

Anyway, I don't think the Race would object to leaving Hong Kong, Suez, Panama Canal Zone, and Singapore in anycase. These are merely outposts and too small to pose a real threat.

See above. BTW, the PCZ is American, and was lost to the Race during the war.

Now, why don't you think tactically, and logically, as if you were an alien who's job it was to conquer earth. You've got 3 nations which can barely fight you to a standstill, and then a fourth pisspot nation screaming "me too" even though it doesn't have a prayer of contesting any of the territory it wants. Would you give a fuck about "honor" for this piece of crap country which was the only one to use chemical weapons on your troops?