ST vs SW split

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-30 02:08am

Darth Wong wrote:
playloud wrote:When I hear about SW fighters defeating ST capital ships, I just roll my eyes.
You must not have noticed the giant Can O' Whoop-Ass that that Slave-1 can unleash when the mood strikes its owner.

I think the Slave-1 is a little big to be considered a fighter. Even with the impressive firing rate of its blasters, 2kt seems pretty weak against a ship that can take a decent beating of Megaton-class photon/quantum torpedoes. I consider a photon torpedo to have about 1/3 the yield of the 190MT missiles carried aboard the Slave-1. Your own site suggests 64MT as a maximum theoretical yield of a photon torpedo. Assuming a photon torpedo detonates with slightly less than its maximum theoretical yield, and a quantum torpedo is thought to be a little more powerful than its photon counterpart, I will just assume an average of the two being 64MT. This is also assuming a Sovereign class ship uses the same torpedoes as a Galaxy class ship, and not the newer Type VI.

In a Sovereign vs. Slave 1 fight, I think it would come down to how fast the Slave-1 can fire its missiles. In AOTC, we only see one being fired. If the ship is capable of firing missiles at a fairly decent rate, I would give the Slave-1 the advantage. Otherwise, I would have to say the proven torpedo firing rate (see ST: Nemesis) of a Sovereign class ship would give it an edge.

The Corvettes I mentioned do not have missile launchers (according to http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com ), and therefore would have to rely on low (6) MT-class Turbolasers which provide good punch, but can’t all be facing the enemy at the same time. A CR90 Corellian Corvette only has 6 Taim & Bak H9 Dual Turbolasers, of which only two (three at most) can be engaging the Sovereign at one time (assuming full turbolaser coverage). Also, I believe turbolasers would be less accurate than torpedoes, as torpedoes are guided weapons, and ST capital ships tend to be more maneuverable than their SW counterparts, and therefore harder to lead when the fighting is taking place from longer range.

In an extended war, the Corvette would be the better ship, mostly because a Sovereign class ship would run out of torpedoes after a fight or two. The Corvette can go from battle to battle, and fire turbolasers until it is destroyed, or the Federation turns to dust.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-03-30 02:20am

Mike is referring to the multi-GT range seismic mine whose expanding shockwave will nail the comparatively slow and sluggish Enterprise and rip it to shreds.

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-30 02:29am

I think a Sovereign class ship is fast and maneuverable enough to stay out of the way of the charges. The Enterprise made some fairly sharp turns in ST: Nemesis. What made the charges so deadly in AOTC were the asteroids that were breaking up as a result, therefore making it harder for Obi-Wan to navigate safely. If the Enterprise did fly into an exploding charge, that would be very bad news for the Enterprise crew.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-03-30 02:31am

From here

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-03-30 02:39am

>_< Sorry, I posted a response to this in the other thread while you were splitting.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-03-30 02:40am

The Enterprise is a huge ass capital ship. Obi-Wan had a hard time dodging the mines in a starfighter, and he's a Jedi. No, drop the charges in its path and there's not much the Enterprise could do.

As for true starfighters beating out a Galaxy class, you yourself said you estimate a GCS at about the power level of a CR 90 Corellian Corvette. (There are many people here who will jump on that later, but it works for me now so I'll run with your assumption rather than argue the point.) One X-wing, shoot the torpedo magazine at it, it dies.

Three B-wings can take out a Nebulon-B frigate with good pilots; they're designed as dedicated strike bombers and the Verpine are very good at designing ships to do what they want 'em to do. Hell, if we let game mechanics into the equation, I'll just fire up X-Wing: Alliance and go solo an ISD from a B-wing.

(Yeah, I know game mechanics don't count.)

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-03-30 02:42am

playloud wrote:I think a Sovereign class ship is fast and maneuverable enough to stay out of the way of the charges. The Enterprise made some fairly sharp turns in ST: Nemesis. What made the charges so deadly in AOTC were the asteroids that were breaking up as a result, therefore making it harder for Obi-Wan to navigate safely. If the Enterprise did fly into an exploding charge, that would be very bad news for the Enterprise crew.

And I know that the slow, sluggish and hardly nimble Enterprise will be a prime target the highly maneuveragle Slave I which demonstrated it's ability to out-fly a one manned space superiority fighter while at the same time avoiding navigation hazards in AotC.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-03-30 02:46am

Crown wrote:
playloud wrote:I think a Sovereign class ship is fast and maneuverable enough to stay out of the way of the charges. The Enterprise made some fairly sharp turns in ST: Nemesis. What made the charges so deadly in AOTC were the asteroids that were breaking up as a result, therefore making it harder for Obi-Wan to navigate safely. If the Enterprise did fly into an exploding charge, that would be very bad news for the Enterprise crew.
And I know that the slow, sluggish and hardly nimble Enterprise will be a prime target the highly maneuveragle Slave I which demonstrated it's ability to out-fly a one manned space superiority fighter while at the same time avoiding navigation hazards in AotC.

A space superiority fighter piloted by a Jedi Master, no less.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-03-30 02:48am

playloud wrote:I think the Slave-1 is a little big to be considered a fighter.

Then what would you class it as?

Even with the impressive firing rate of its blasters, 2kt seems pretty weak against a ship that can take a decent beating of Megaton-class photon/quantum torpedoes.

Kiloton range torpedoes, according to calculations such as the "Pegasus" asteriod. And even if those lasers seem weak, the Slave 1's megaton torps and gigaton mines are a different story.

I consider a photon torpedo to have about 1/3 the yield of the 190MT missiles carried aboard the Slave-1. Your own site suggests 64MT as a maximum theoretical yield of a photon torpedo.

Wong's 64MT max yield was based on the ST:TNG Technical Manual, which has since then been declared as out-of-continuity by Paramount. Calculations from "Pegasus" place photon torps in the kiloton range.

Assuming a photon torpedo detonates with slightly less than its maximum theoretical yield, and a quantum torpedo is thought to be a little more powerful than its photon counterpart, I will just assume an average of the two being 64MT.

Against a large target on contact detonation, at most only 50% of the energy from the (omi-directional exploding) photon torps will be delivered against the target. Against a small target on proximity explosion, only a small percentage will ever touch the target.

In a Sovereign vs. Slave 1 fight, I think it would come down to how fast the Slave-1 can fire its missiles. In AOTC, we only see one being fired. -snip

I thought it was fairly obvious from the way that the missle rack came out that the Slave 1 could have easily fired the others torps as soon as the pilot designated the target.

-snip
In an extended war, the Corvette would be the better ship, mostly because a Sovereign class ship would run out of torpedoes after a fight or two. The Corvette can go from battle to battle, and fire turbolasers until it is destroyed, or the Federation turns to dust.

Assuming that the CR90 has no more shields than a 39m*91m*6.8m diplomatic barge (

), it could take 1,434 megatons... per second (ref: AOTC ICS).

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-03-30 02:55am

Lord of the Farce wrote:
playloud wrote:I think the Slave-1 is a little big to be considered a fighter.
Then what would you class it as?

Its a Firespray class patrol ship. A picket/pursuit vessel, basically (in its original configuration, anyway), but its not all that much beyond a starfighter.

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-30 02:58am

Assuming that the CR90 has no more shields than a 39m*91m*6.8m diplomatic barge ( ), it could take 1,434 megatons... per second (ref: AOTC ICS).

I guess I can't argue that. I haven't read the ICS book.

However, does it sound strange that one CR90 Corvette can't take out another? With all it's dual turbolasers (even if all 6 could point at another Corvette at the same time), a Corvette can't produce 1,434 MT per second. Does that mean 2 CR90's can fire at each other forever, and not hurt on another?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-03-30 03:03am

playloud wrote: I think the Slave-1 is a little big to be considered a fighter. Even with the impressive firing rate of its blasters, 2kt seems pretty weak against a ship that can take a decent beating of Megaton-class photon/quantum torpedoes. I consider a photon torpedo to have about 1/3 the yield of the 190MT missiles carried aboard the Slave-1. Your own site suggests 64MT as a maximum theoretical yield of a photon torpedo. Assuming a photon torpedo detonates with slightly less than its maximum theoretical yield, and a quantum torpedo is thought to be a little more powerful than its photon counterpart, I will just assume an average of the two being 64MT. This is also assuming a Sovereign class ship uses the same torpedoes as a Galaxy class ship, and not the newer Type VI.

It should be noted that the "Megaton range" torp figures for Mike are exceedingly generous, based on the non-canon tech manual . More realistic figures have been derived from canon (For example, the most commonly cited figures are generalyl from IIRC "Pegasus", and involve low-kiloton yields for photorps. Phasers are unlikely to be substantially more powerful than that, or even comparable.

Slave-1's lasers are not really what Mike was referring to (the naval minelayer, which can carry ordnance which includes seismic charges as well as others, ,was what he was mentionig), but there are also the concussion missiles. In any event, 2 kilotons is per shot, and as we see from AOTC, Slave-1 can pump out 15-20 shots per second (30-40 kt/second.)

And in any case, if you're goign to go with Mike's shield estimates (since you seem willing to use his torpedo figures) even the concussion missiles from the AOTC ICS should be capable of severely damaging if not destroying a Trek capital ship.

In a Sovereign vs. Slave 1 fight, I think it would come down to how fast the Slave-1 can fire its missiles. In AOTC, we only see one being fired. If the ship is capable of firing missiles at a fairly decent rate, I would give the Slave-1 the advantage. Otherwise, I would have to say the proven torpedo firing rate (see ST: Nemesis) of a Sovereign class ship would give it an edge.

It can apparently fire two at once (one from each launcher), which should be more than sufficient for most cap ships. (Particualrily if you go with the kiloton-range torp calcs.)

The Corvettes I mentioned do not have missile launchers (according to http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com ), and therefore would have to rely on low (6) MT-class Turbolasers which provide good punch, but can’t all be facing the enemy at the same time. A CR90 Corellian Corvette only has 6 Taim & Bak H9 Dual Turbolasers, of which only two (three at most) can be engaging the Sovereign at one time (assuming full turbolaser coverage). Also, I believe turbolasers would be less accurate than torpedoes, as torpedoes are guided weapons, and ST capital ships tend to be more maneuverable than their SW counterparts, and therefore harder to lead when the fighting is taking place from longer range.

First, what evidence do you have that the turbolasers are low megaton? (Especially since those guns were firing on a Star Destroyer in ANH), and second, torpedoes can be shot down. Its far likelier that the Corvette's turbolasers are gigaton range than megaton.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-03-30 03:04am

playloud wrote:
Assuming that the CR90 has no more shields than a 39m*91m*6.8m diplomatic barge ( ), it could take 1,434 megatons... per second (ref: AOTC ICS).
I guess I can't argue that. I haven't read the ICS book.

However, does it sound strange that one CR90 Corvette can't take out another? With all it's dual turbolasers (even if all 6 could point at another Corvette at the same time), a Corvette can't produce 1,434 MT per second. Does that mean 2 CR90's can fire at each other forever, and not hurt on another?

Maybe you could producec your figures for Corvette firepower, first.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-03-30 03:05am

First, what evidence do you have that the turbolasers are low megaton? (Especially since those guns were firing on a Star Destroyer in ANH)

Well, they were firing on a Star Destroyer and doing precisely jack shit, if you'll recall.

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-30 03:15am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
playloud wrote:
Assuming that the CR90 has no more shields than a 39m*91m*6.8m diplomatic barge ( ), it could take 1,434 megatons... per second (ref: AOTC ICS).
I guess I can't argue that. I haven't read the ICS book.

However, does it sound strange that one CR90 Corvette can't take out another? With all it's dual turbolasers (even if all 6 could point at another Corvette at the same time), a Corvette can't produce 1,434 MT per second. Does that mean 2 CR90's can fire at each other forever, and not hurt on another?
Maybe you could producec your figures for Corvette firepower, first.

I thought I read that LTL were KT class, MTL were low MT class, and HTL were 200GT (specifically). I am going off memory, and most of my info probably came from this forum. If 6MT for the MTL on the Corvette is inaccurate, can somebody tell me a canon value? My knowledge of SW ships is no doubt less than yours.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-03-30 03:18am

Errr, the 200GT yield is for the Aclamator troop transports, I don't think they had HTL (or at least HTL like the ones sported by the SD

)

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-03-30 03:19am

playloud wrote:I thought I read that LTL were KT class, MTL were low MT class, and HTL were 200GT (specifically). I am going off memory, and most of my info probably came from this forum. If 6MT for the MTL on the Corvette is inaccurate, can somebody tell me a canon value? My knowledge of SW ships is no doubt less than yours.

In the AOTC ICS Data File entry for the Acclamator-class, it's 200 gigaton weapons are listed as "quad turbolaser turrets". Notice the lack of "heavy".

While I'm posting, here's the "Pegasus" episode info from the main page's Star Trek Canon Database (link). Examine the third entry.

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-30 03:21am

Connor MacLeod wrote:It should be noted that the "Megaton range" torp figures for Mike are exceedingly generous, based on the non-canon tech manual . More realistic figures have been derived from canon (For example, the most commonly cited figures are generalyl from IIRC "Pegasus", and involve low-kiloton yields for photorps. Phasers are unlikely to be substantially more powerful than that, or even comparable.

Has a good analysis been done on the asteroid being hit by a torpedo from "Cost of Living"[TNG]? How about the one in "Rise"[Voy]? I have seen some thoughts on other sites, but I was wondering what the view on those specific asteroid shots were.

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-30 03:26am

Lord of the Farce wrote:
playloud wrote:I thought I read that LTL were KT class, MTL were low MT class, and HTL were 200GT (specifically). I am going off memory, and most of my info probably came from this forum. If 6MT for the MTL on the Corvette is inaccurate, can somebody tell me a canon value? My knowledge of SW ships is no doubt less than yours.
In the AOTC ICS Data File entry for the Acclamator-class, it's 200 gigaton weapons are listed as "quad turbolaser turrets". Notice the lack of "heavy".

While I'm posting, here's the "Pegasus" episode info from the main page's Star Trek Canon Database (link). Examine the third entry.

Jesus. Does that mean that Heavy Turbolasers are in the Teraton class?

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-03-30 03:31am

playloud wrote:Has a good analysis been done on the asteroid being hit by a torpedo from "Cost of Living"[TNG]?

This might do.

How about the one in "Rise"[Voy]?

Can't recall any right now.

Jesus. Does that mean that Heavy Turbolasers are in the Teraton class?

I've seen the possibility raised a few times, and the requirements of a Base Delta Zero operation seems to support it.

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-30 03:34am

If they are that powerful, I really don't see the need for a Deathstar.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-03-30 03:37am

playloud wrote:If they are that powerful, I really don't see the need for a Deathstar.

I think you're missing something that has been the focal point in at least two of the canon movies: Planetary Shields.

playloud · Post by **playloud** » 2004-03-30 03:47am

Lord of the Farce wrote:
playloud wrote:If they are that powerful, I really don't see the need for a Deathstar.
I think you're missing something that has been the focal point in at least two of the canon movies: Planetary Shields.

I have a question about that. How did the Imperials get onto Hoth with the shield up?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-03-30 03:48am

playloud wrote:
Lord of the Farce wrote:
playloud wrote:If they are that powerful, I really don't see the need for a Deathstar.
I think you're missing something that has been the focal point in at least two of the canon movies: Planetary Shields.
I have a question about that. How did the Imperials get onto Hoth with the shield up?

It was a smaller theatre shield, specifically around their base.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-03-30 03:49am

playloud wrote:
Lord of the Farce wrote:
playloud wrote:If they are that powerful, I really don't see the need for a Deathstar.
I think you're missing something that has been the focal point in at least two of the canon movies: Planetary Shields.
I have a question about that. How did the Imperials get onto Hoth with the shield up?

It was a tactical shield only protecting a 'small area' of the Hoth planet. I mean like; come on! This was Veers talking how could you forget his lines?