Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Alyeska]

"ten bars of gold pressed latinum please..."

And the fact that Federation people can pay that indicates the Federation does not prevent monetary exchange. If you can own something, then you have a monetary system in order to exchange it. Simple as that. With private property comes monetary systems to buy and sell such property. Now unless you can prove that there is no private property in Trek, you can abandon this line of reasoning in regards to their being no money.

[Alyeska]

Just a little FYI.

Quark would rather have Federation customers then Dominion/Cardassian customers. Why? Cause the Federation buys more stuff. Hmm...

[Kamakazie Sith]

"ten bars of gold pressed latinum please..."

And the fact that Federation people can pay that indicates the Federation does not prevent monetary exchange. If you can own something, then you have a monetary system in order to exchange it. Simple as that. With private property comes monetary systems to buy and sell such property. Now unless you can prove that there is no private property in Trek, you can abandon this line of reasoning in regards to their being no money.

Don't forget that Picards family owns a vinard, and IIRC it is pretty much stated as "his families"

[Alyeska]

Please thay own buisnesses because the federation wants them to. What would it be like to bust your ass off for a resturant if you dont get any pay off, its insane. Siskos resturant might be successful but hes not geting any money out of it.

And why dont you see any personal vehicles if they are allowed there own property. maybe its becuase they want to make sure you cant leave the federation.

Can anyone recall if any customers actually paid for their food?

How do you know you haven't seen any personal vehicles?

You'd expect Troi's mother who is something high-ranking among Betazoids (although I don't know what anymore) to have a personal ship, for example, however, she uses public transport shuttles.

Doesn't quite work the same way as the modern world. Today transport planes are faster then boats. In ST the larger ships are the faster ones. Small transports and freighters have been repeatably shown to be slower then military ships.

[Evil Jerk]

"ten bars of gold pressed latinum please..."

And the fact that Federation people can pay that indicates the Federation does not prevent monetary exchange. If you can own something, then you have a monetary system in order to exchange it. Simple as that. With private property comes monetary systems to buy and sell such property. Now unless you can prove that there is no private property in Trek, you can abandon this line of reasoning in regards to their being no money.

How is the fact that they use Latinum outside of the UFP proof of anything?
They can simply sell anything useful they bring along in the various black markets out there, and get Latinum in return.

[Alyeska]

Ok... A debate about the possibility of a Consititution class ship at Wolf 359 has been side tracked to a debate about the economics of the Federation and whether or not Insurrection took place before or after the end of the Dominion war. I guess thats about normal.

[NecronLord]

And what about the bits with Riker gambling at Quarks? Sisko Sr. owning a restaraunt? Ezri's family owning a successful business?

The Federation is a democracy with some socialist tendancies and Earth itself seems to have partially done away with currency, but the Federation itself has not outlawed private property nor has it done away with currency. Hell, it would be impossible for the Federation to conduct meaningful trade with anyone else without currency. The barter method only works so far. Money allows you to make trades without having something directly in return.

Please thay own buisnesses because the federation wants them to. What would it be like to bust your ass off for a resturant if you dont get any pay off, its insane. Siskos resturant might be successful but hes not geting any money out of it.

And why dont you see any personal vehicles if they are allowed there own property. maybe its becuase they want to make sure you cant leave the federation.

Okay, can you prove Sisko, Sr. doesn't get paid? Can you show evidence that no one owns their own vehicles? (Wait, that's proving a negative, sorry.) How many stories have focused on civilians, let alone civilians going anywhere? All of these "no money" statements are based primarliy on two lines of dialogue which are open to more than one interpretation:

RTFS

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... rxism.html

[Evil Jerk]

Can anyone recall if any customers actually paid for their food?

How do you know you haven't seen any personal vehicles?

You'd expect Troi's mother who is something high-ranking among Betazoids (although I don't know what anymore) to have a personal ship, for example, however, she uses public transport shuttles.

Doesn't quite work the same way as the modern world. Today transport planes are faster then boats. In ST the larger ships are the faster ones. Small transports and freighters have been repeatably shown to be slower then military ships.

How does this alter the fact that to get to the big ships like the E-D, dignitaries like Troi used Federation ships and shuttles, to the exclusion of everything else?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Lwaxana Troi also holds a government position. It may be that she rides the transport shuttles at government rates to (gasp) save money.

[NecronLord]

"ten bars of gold pressed latinum please..."

And the fact that Federation people can pay that indicates the Federation does not prevent monetary exchange. If you can own something, then you have a monetary system in order to exchange it. Simple as that. With private property comes monetary systems to buy and sell such property. Now unless you can prove that there is no private property in Trek, you can abandon this line of reasoning in regards to their being no money.

Don't forget that Picards family owns a vinard, and IIRC it is pretty much stated as "his families"

I have that EP on VHS. Picards Brother states he is keeping up the tradition... not doing it for money.

[Evil Jerk]

Lwaxana Troi also holds a government position. It may be that she rides the transport shuttles at government rates to (gasp) save money.

Lwaxana Troi is also a pompous ass, if she could come in something other than a boring old govt shuttle, she'd come in some sort of extravigant private vessel to show off.

[NecronLord]

Just a little FYI.

Quark would rather have Federation customers then Dominion/Cardassian customers. Why? Cause the Federation buys more stuff. Hmm...

Maybe they tax him?

And maybe the Jem Hadar Idea of trading ie. Point disruptor, demand object. annoys him?

[Kamakazie Sith]

And the fact that Federation people can pay that indicates the Federation does not prevent monetary exchange. If you can own something, then you have a monetary system in order to exchange it. Simple as that. With private property comes monetary systems to buy and sell such property. Now unless you can prove that there is no private property in Trek, you can abandon this line of reasoning in regards to their being no money.

Don't forget that Picards family owns a vinard, and IIRC it is pretty much stated as "his families"

I have that EP on VHS. Picards Brother states he is keeping up the tradition... not doing it for money.

He didn't say he doesn't get paid though. Also, didn't Seven of Nines family own their starship, The Raven IIRC?

[Alyeska]

RTFS

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... rxism.html

Abolition of property rights

Sisko Sr owns a restaraunt. Scotty bought a boat. Cassidy owns her freighter. Sisko and Jake own plenty of baseball stuff. Picard's family owns a vineyard. Ezri's family has a very successful business (so good the Orion Syndicate wanted some part of it).

State seizure of transportation services
Cassidy owns a freighter. Plenty of people seem to vacation on Ocieana and Risa and don't seem to hitch rides on Fed military ships.

State seizure of communication services
We have only really witnessed military people use communications. And when communications are being done on DS9, that is a Bajoran station using Bajoran equipment.

Elimination of religion and traditional families
I don't seem to recall anyone barring Worf from his practices...

State seizure of industry
Other then starship construction, have we ever seen ANY industrial areas?

Citizens are forced to work
Like Jake Sisko? And how often do we see citizens? We usually see military personal.

So, what point were you trying to prove again?

[Evil Jerk]

Just a little FYI.

Quark would rather have Federation customers then Dominion/Cardassian customers. Why? Cause the Federation buys more stuff. Hmm...

Maybe they tax him?

And maybe the Jem Hadar Idea of trading ie. Point disruptor, demand object. annoys him?

Starfleet officers on DS9 would be in an ideal position to bring along goods from the Federation and exchange them for Latinum in the black market like I've said, and since it's unlikely they will be going anywhere else that accepts Latinum in the near future, Quark's got a lot of newly wealthy suckers he'll want to attract in all those Fed people.

[Evil Jerk]

Don't forget that Picards family owns a vinard, and IIRC it is pretty much stated as "his families"

I have that EP on VHS. Picards Brother states he is keeping up the tradition... not doing it for money.

He didn't say he doesn't get paid though. Also, didn't Seven of Nines family own their starship, The Raven IIRC?

I don't think they did, it was a Federation science ship with Federation markings on a Federation mission.

[Alyeska]

Just a little FYI.

Quark would rather have Federation customers then Dominion/Cardassian customers. Why? Cause the Federation buys more stuff. Hmm...

Maybe they tax him?

And maybe the Jem Hadar Idea of trading ie. Point disruptor, demand object. annoys him?

No, Quark commented that the Jem'Hadar don't buy anything and we find out the Vorta can't taste anything (except for two things). That left the Cardassians (who we know love to party at Quarks), and Quark would rather have the Federation cause they buy more and don't wreck the place as much. Hell, the holosuits cost money. If the Federation didn't have money, how the hell do military people earn enough money to buy anything?

[Alyeska]

Just a little FYI.

Quark would rather have Federation customers then Dominion/Cardassian customers. Why? Cause the Federation buys more stuff. Hmm...

Maybe they tax him?

And maybe the Jem Hadar Idea of trading ie. Point disruptor, demand object. annoys him?

Starfleet officers on DS9 would be in an ideal position to bring along goods from the Federation and exchange them for Latinum in the black market like I've said, and since it's unlikely they will be going anywhere else that accepts Latinum in the near future, Quark's got a lot of newly wealthy suckers he'll want to attract in all those Fed people.

What goods? If the Federation is communist, then they don't own it, and thus can't trade it for money.

[NecronLord]

Don't forget that Picards family owns a vinard, and IIRC it is pretty much stated as "his families"

I have that EP on VHS. Picards Brother states he is keeping up the tradition... not doing it for money.

He didn't say he doesn't get paid though. Also, didn't Seven of Nines family own their starship, The Raven IIRC?

Unlikely that he does given the free competition.

Which was a Fed research vessel, with a fed number, fed terminals, fed doors and no toys for seven, so much so that she spen t her childhood playing with her perants borg cube models...

[Alyeska]

I have that EP on VHS. Picards Brother states he is keeping up the tradition... not doing it for money.

He didn't say he doesn't get paid though. Also, didn't Seven of Nines family own their starship, The Raven IIRC?

Unlikely that he does given the free competition.

Which was a Fed research vessel, with a fed number, fed terminals, fed doors and no toys for seven, so much so that she spen t her childhood playing with her perants borg cube models...

Gee, don't merchant ships today have the same latching system for their doors? Don't they both have a helm station? Don't they both have similar looking computer screens and radar stations? I guess there are no private merchant ships in the US either.

[Evil Jerk]

Maybe they tax him?

And maybe the Jem Hadar Idea of trading ie. Point disruptor, demand object. annoys him?

Starfleet officers on DS9 would be in an ideal position to bring along goods from the Federation and exchange them for Latinum in the black market like I've said, and since it's unlikely they will be going anywhere else that accepts Latinum in the near future, Quark's got a lot of newly wealthy suckers he'll want to attract in all those Fed people.

What goods? If the Federation is communist, then they don't own it, and thus can't trade it for money.

Don't be naive, even Soviet Russia had Rubles to buy some things with.
They can also take away any old trinkets that some alien might find interesting.

[jegs2]

What goods? If the Federation is communist, then they don't own it, and thus can't trade it for money.

I don't think the TOS-era Feddies were communist. If I remember correctley, some of the crewmen gambled for "credits."

[Alyeska]

What goods? If the Federation is communist, then they don't own it, and thus can't trade it for money.

I don't think the TOS-era Feddies were communist. If I remember correctley, some of the crewmen gambled for "credits."

Ah, but Kirk said there wasn't any money in the 23rd Century!

[Kamakazie Sith]

Unlikely that he does given the free competition.

Which was a Fed research vessel, with a fed number, fed terminals, fed doors and no toys for seven, so much so that she spen t her childhood playing with her perants borg cube models...

Free competition, how do you know there aren't others....do you seriously believe that Picards vineyard is the only one in existence? Also, why would his brother say that he doesn't do it for the money if money isn't used at all, or was he being sarcasitic?

My dad never had any toys, he had to make his own he was raised in the US, so what's your point? Was it stated to be a Federation research ship?

[Evil Jerk]

What goods? If the Federation is communist, then they don't own it, and thus can't trade it for money.

I don't think the TOS-era Feddies were communist. If I remember correctley, some of the crewmen gambled for "credits."

Ah, but Kirk said there wasn't any money in the 23rd Century!

When did he say that?
All I recall is in STIV when the woman sarcastically remarked "What? You don't have money where you come from?" and he said no, when referring to paying a bill in a restaurant, because he didn't have any money at that moment.