Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Admiral Drason]

And what about the bits with Riker gambling at Quarks? Sisko Sr. owning a restaraunt? Ezri's family owning a successful business?

The Federation is a democracy with some socialist tendancies and Earth itself seems to have partially done away with currency, but the Federation itself has not outlawed private property nor has it done away with currency. Hell, it would be impossible for the Federation to conduct meaningful trade with anyone else without currency. The barter method only works so far. Money allows you to make trades without having something directly in return.

Please thay own buisnesses because the federation wants them to. What would it be like to bust your ass off for a resturant if you dont get any pay off, its insane. Siskos resturant might be successful but hes not geting any money out of it.

And why dont you see any personal vehicles if they are allowed there own property. maybe its becuase they want to make sure you cant leave the federation.

Okay, can you prove Sisko, Sr. doesn't get paid? Can you show evidence that no one owns their own vehicles? (Wait, that's proving a negative, sorry.) How many stories have focused on civilians, let alone civilians going anywhere? All of these "no money" statements are based primarliy on two lines of dialogue which are open to more than one interpretation:

Kirk's line in ST:IV about not having money in the 23rd century. He could easily have been referring to a cashless, credit-based economy (like the one we seem to be moving toward) where all transactions are electronic and hard currency is no longer minted.

Picard's line in ST:FC about the accumulation of wealth no longer being a "driving force in our lives." He's not saying the accumulation of wealth is no longer possible, or even that it's frowned upon -- just that people have better things to live for.

I cant realy prove that they dont get paid but theres no evidance that they do.

The fact that the Enterprise-D is just a cruise liner from the many episodes where civilans come abord to get transport. the only transport I can remember not being owned by star fleet is quarks and if I recal he gets that taken away by the federation. Is Quark even a fed citizen?

[NecronLord]

RTFS

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... rxism.html

Abolition of property rights

Sisko Sr owns a restaraunt. Scotty bought a boat. Cassidy owns her freighter. Sisko and Jake own plenty of baseball stuff. Picard's family owns a vineyard. Ezri's family has a very successful business (so good the Orion Syndicate wanted some part of it).

Even the ussr didn't bother taking away peoples basebal stuff...
Her freighter is a black market scow that puts in at bajor (non fed planet) a lot.

State seizure of transportation services
Cassidy owns a freighter. Plenty of people seem to vacation on Ocieana and Risa and don't seem to hitch rides on Fed military ships.

prove

State seizure of communication services
We have only really witnessed military people use communications. And when communications are being done on DS9, that is a Bajoran station using Bajoran equipment.

actually cardassian equipt mostly. what relevence has this?

Elimination of religion and traditional families
I don't seem to recall anyone barring Worf from his practices...

Rule one of dictatorships, Dont persecute forign nationals of a rival power you want on your side.

State seizure of industry
Other then starship construction, have we ever seen ANY industrial areas?

point?

Citizens are forced to work
Like Jake Sisko? And how often do we see citizens? We usually see military personal.

Excuse me? He has a Job. Due to social pressure?

So, what point were you trying to prove again?

[Kamakazie Sith]

The fact that the Enterprise-D is just a cruise liner from the many episodes where civilans come abord to get transport. the only transport I can remember not being owned by star fleet is quarks and if I recal he gets that taken away by the federation. Is Quark even a fed citizen?

What episode did civilians come aboard to gain transport?

[NecronLord]

He didn't say he doesn't get paid though. Also, didn't Seven of Nines family own their starship, The Raven IIRC?

Unlikely that he does given the free competition.

Which was a Fed research vessel, with a fed number, fed terminals, fed doors and no toys for seven, so much so that she spen t her childhood playing with her perants borg cube models...

Gee, don't merchant ships today have the same latching system for their doors? Don't they both have a helm station? Don't they both have similar looking computer screens and radar stations? I guess there are no private merchant ships in the US either.

You can have any colour you like, as long as it's beige, and has a fed logo stped on everything.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You can have any colour you like, as long as it's beige, and has a fed logo stped on everything.

That could just be like a pass port. To let people know that the occupants are Federation citizens.

[NecronLord]

What goods? If the Federation is communist, then they don't own it, and thus can't trade it for money.

I don't think the TOS-era Feddies were communist. If I remember correctley, some of the crewmen gambled for "credits."

Ah, but Kirk said there wasn't any money in the 23rd Century!

Uhura quotes a price for the Enterprise. I think it was in "mirror mirror".

[NecronLord]

You can have any colour you like, as long as it's beige, and has a fed logo stped on everything.

That could just be like a pass port. To let people know that the occupants are Federation citizens.

You mean pirates can see inside the ship, and don't bother to notice the english markings and NCC number? or the USS but look to see the fed symbol on the controls, meticulous ain't they?

[Alyeska]

Even the ussr didn't bother taking away peoples basebal stuff...
Her freighter is a black market scow that puts in at bajor (non fed planet) a lot.

Ok, you are making a positive claim here. You are claiming her ownership is illegal, that there are laws against it. I say she owns it, and there were no stated laws against it. I have evidence, you do not.

State seizure of transportation services
Cassidy owns a freighter. Plenty of people seem to vacation on Ocieana and Risa and don't seem to hitch rides on Fed military ships.

prove

Actually Mike is making the claim that there are no private transportation services. First, Cassidy and her independent freighter disprove this. Secondly, he didn't prove the the Federation ferried citizens around in military craft. His claim, not mine. He has to support it, not me.

actually cardassian equipt mostly. what relevence has this?

Simple. How can the Federation be forcing people to use Federation communication when the only civilian example of communication is on a Cardassian station owned by Bajorans being run by the Federation?

Rule one of dictatorships, Dont persecute forign nationals of a rival power you want on your side.

Worf is a Federation citizen raised by a Russian family.

State seizure of industry
Other then starship construction, have we ever seen ANY industrial areas?

point?

Ain't seen no industry to begin with, therefor its impossible to conclude that its government run.

Excuse me? He has a Job. Due to social pressure?

And just how far into the series was it before he had this job eh? I also see you ignored the fact this is a show about MILITARY personel.

[Evil Jerk]

You can have any colour you like, as long as it's beige, and has a fed logo stped on everything.

That could just be like a pass port. To let people know that the occupants are Federation citizens.

That's just ridiculous, that'd be like every American being forced to pain their cars red white and blue with an eagle on the bonnet.

[Alyeska]

I don't think the TOS-era Feddies were communist. If I remember correctley, some of the crewmen gambled for "credits."

Ah, but Kirk said there wasn't any money in the 23rd Century!

Uhura quotes a price for the Enterprise. I think it was in "mirror mirror".

AH! So claims about "no money" aren't always true eh? Wouldn't Kassidy being a private citizen kinda outweigh anything Picard said?

None of you have yet to show how the Federation people on DS9 could afford anything if they didn't have money.

[Alyeska]

You can have any colour you like, as long as it's beige, and has a fed logo stped on everything.

That could just be like a pass port. To let people know that the occupants are Federation citizens.

That's just ridiculous, that'd be like every American being forced to pain their cars red white and blue with an eagle on the bonnet.

So, I guess my house is military owned. Its painted green after all.

[Alyeska]

The fact that the Enterprise-D is just a cruise liner from the many episodes where civilans come abord to get transport. the only transport I can remember not being owned by star fleet is quarks and if I recal he gets that taken away by the federation. Is Quark even a fed citizen?

Can you name the number of episodes that the E-D moves NON-diplomatic people around? Civilians already "stationed" on the E-D don't count.

[Evil Jerk]

AH! So claims about "no money" aren't always true eh?

TOS was capitalist, they don't count.

So, I guess my house is military owned. Its painted green after all.

Does it have military markings identifying it as a government owned house?

[Alyeska]

I don't think the TOS-era Feddies were communist. If I remember correctley, some of the crewmen gambled for "credits."

Ah, but Kirk said there wasn't any money in the 23rd Century!

When did he say that?
All I recall is in STIV when the woman sarcastically remarked "What? You don't have money where you come from?" and he said no, when referring to paying a bill in a restaurant, because he didn't have any money at that moment.

So, people own things in TOS era but not TNG? Cassidy (don't bug me about interchanging a C and a K) owns a freighter and it was NEVER stated she owned it illegally.

[2000AD]

The fact that the Enterprise-D is just a cruise liner from the many episodes where civilans come abord to get transport. the only transport I can remember not being owned by star fleet is quarks and if I recal he gets that taken away by the federation. Is Quark even a fed citizen?

Can you name the number of episodes that the E-D moves NON-diplomatic people around? Civilians already "stationed" on the E-D don't count.

Juist WTF are civs doing on the enterprise in the first place?

[Evil Jerk]

The fact that the Enterprise-D is just a cruise liner from the many episodes where civilans come abord to get transport. the only transport I can remember not being owned by star fleet is quarks and if I recal he gets that taken away by the federation. Is Quark even a fed citizen?

Can you name the number of episodes that the E-D moves NON-diplomatic people around? Civilians already "stationed" on the E-D don't count.

And why should the E-D run around ferrying diplomats at all?

[NecronLord]

Even the ussr didn't bother taking away peoples basebal stuff...
Her freighter is a black market scow that puts in at bajor (non fed planet) a lot.

Ok, you are making a positive claim here. You are claiming her ownership is illegal, that there are laws against it. I say she owns it, and there were no stated laws against it. I have evidence, you do not.

EH? what evidence?

State seizure of transportation services
Cassidy owns a freighter. Plenty of people seem to vacation on Ocieana and Risa and don't seem to hitch rides on Fed military ships.

prove

Actually Mike is making the claim that there are no private transportation services. First, Cassidy and her independent freighter disprove this. Secondly, he didn't prove the the Federation ferried citizens around in military craft. His claim, not mine. He has to support it, not me.

Humpth then I shall leave it to him

actually cardassian equipt mostly. what relevence has this?

Simple. How can the Federation be forcing people to use Federation communication when the only civilian example of communication is on a Cardassian station owned by Bajorans being run by the Federation?

point?

Rule one of dictatorships, Dont persecute forign nationals of a rival power you want on your side.

Worf is a Federation citizen raised by a Russian family.

He has dual nationality, he fights as an officer aboard Klingon ships.

State seizure of industry
Other then starship construction, have we ever seen ANY industrial areas?

point?

Ain't seen no industry to begin with, therefor its impossible to conclude that its government run.

Excuse me? He has a Job. Due to social pressure?

And just how far into the series was it before he had this job eh? I also see you ignored the fact this is a show about MILITARY personel.

In what way?
How old was he for most of the series? 16, 17, 18?

I shall be back tomorrow.

[Alyeska]

AH! So claims about "no money" aren't always true eh?

TOS was capitalist, they don't count.

So, I guess my house is military owned. Its painted green after all.

Does it have military markings identifying it as a government owned house?

Did the Raven say USS Raven or NCC with a number? What about the fact that private airplanes today need markings? What about liscense plates?

Ever hear of the SS Vico ship? Was a private non starfleet ship.

[NecronLord]

AH! So claims about "no money" aren't always true eh?

TOS was capitalist, they don't count.

So, I guess my house is military owned. Its painted green after all.

Does it have military markings identifying it as a government owned house?

Did the Raven say USS Raven or NCC with a number? What about the fact that private airplanes today need markings? What about liscense plates?

Ever hear of the SS Vico ship? Was a private non starfleet ship.

I'll get back to you tomorrow, I'm going to watch that ep now.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Quote:
Even the ussr didn't bother taking away peoples basebal stuff...
Her freighter is a black market scow that puts in at bajor (non fed planet) a lot.


Ok, you are making a positive claim here. You are claiming her ownership is illegal, that there are laws against it. I say she owns it, and there were no stated laws against it. I have evidence, you do not.

Another thing to point out is that if Kasidy's ownership of her freighter were illegal, it would have been Sisko's job as a "good citizen" to place her under some sort of arrest and seize the freighter, or at the very least report her to the appropriate persons to have these actions carried out. Not only did he not do this, he eventually married this "criminal" thus making himself an accomplice by permitting this "crime" to persist.

[Evil Jerk]

Ah, but Kirk said there wasn't any money in the 23rd Century!

When did he say that?
All I recall is in STIV when the woman sarcastically remarked "What? You don't have money where you come from?" and he said no, when referring to paying a bill in a restaurant, because he didn't have any money at that moment.

So, people own things in TOS era but not TNG?

Yes. I suspect a communist revolution of some sort between TOS and TNG.

Cassidy (don't bug me about interchanging a C and a K) owns a freighter and it was NEVER stated she owned it illegally.

Where does it say she owns it exactly?
And perhaps on such remote colonies as Cestus III, their communist laws are relaxed somewhat.

[Admiral Drason]

The fact that the Enterprise-D is just a cruise liner from the many episodes where civilans come abord to get transport. the only transport I can remember not being owned by star fleet is quarks and if I recal he gets that taken away by the federation. Is Quark even a fed citizen?

Can you name the number of episodes that the E-D moves NON-diplomatic people around? Civilians already "stationed" on the E-D don't count.

Cant give you the number but they do it all the time every other Episode there transporting some one else to some planet or another.

Any way whats the logic of allowing civilians on board in the first place.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

And just how far into the series was it before he had this job eh? I also see you ignored the fact this is a show about MILITARY personel.


In what way?
How old was he for most of the series? 16, 17, 18?

Who are we referring to here? Jake Sisko? Didn't he eventually become a novelist? As far as I know, there's no Starfleet Corps of Suspense Thrillers.

[Alyeska]

EH? what evidence?

Cassidy owns her damned freighter! Can you provide any evidence that she doesn't, or that its illegal?

Simple. How can the Federation be forcing people to use Federation communication when the only civilian example of communication is on a Cardassian station owned by Bajorans being run by the Federation?

point?

Your only proof about communication censorship is on a BAJORAN station.

He has dual nationality, he fights as an officer aboard Klingon ships.

So Riker, Dax, Bashir, Quark, and O'Brian are all Klingon citizens?

In what way?
How old was he for most of the series? 16, 17, 18?

He was 16 when the series started. He didn't even have a job untill the last part of the 5th season, when he was 21 years old.

[Evil Jerk]

AH! So claims about "no money" aren't always true eh?

TOS was capitalist, they don't count.

So, I guess my house is military owned. Its painted green after all.

Does it have military markings identifying it as a government owned house?

Did the Raven say USS Raven or NCC with a number? What about the fact that private airplanes today need markings? What about liscense plates?

And it just happens to have the exact same markings as all other Fed ships, it might not be in the military, but it's part of the GOVERNMENT.

Ever hear of the SS Vico ship? Was a private non starfleet ship.

It was still a FEDERATION ship!
These ships don't have to be owned by Starfleet, just by the UFP itself.