Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[2000AD]

I'll say it again. Just WTF are civvies doing on the Enterprise in the first place?

(on a side note i have now reached the rank of Jedi knight.
*whuuummmmm* )

[Alyeska]

Where does it say she owns it exactly?
And perhaps on such remote colonies as Cestus III, their communist laws are relaxed somewhat.

Ok. We see people with restaraunts, private property, houses (When jake got old), businesses, ships, vineyards. There is not one single statement that private property it outlawed, NOT A SINGLE ONE. Thus the conclussion is that private property exists. They might not have a physical monetary system, but they HAVE to have some sort of credits system in order to trade. We know the Federation trades, that is something that is widely shown even in the novels and the games. The Federation, other then the Ferengi, are some of the more open people who conduct trade even. How the hell can you conduct trade without any money? The barter system is vastly inferior over monetary systems.

AND. In TNG Preemptive Strike a Federation colony in the DZM between Cardassian space and Federation space, there was open exchange of money in a bar INFRONT of two starfleet officers (Data and Worf). Picard even pretends to try and pay for LT Ro to have sex with him. How the hell can people move about in the Federation and do anything if the core systems have no money and the outer systems rely on money.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The fact that the Enterprise-D is just a cruise liner from the many episodes where civilans come abord to get transport. the only transport I can remember not being owned by star fleet is quarks and if I recal he gets that taken away by the federation. Is Quark even a fed citizen?

Can you name the number of episodes that the E-D moves NON-diplomatic people around? Civilians already "stationed" on the E-D don't count.

Cant give you the number but they do it all the time every other Episode there transporting some one else to some planet or another.

Any way whats the logic of allowing civilians on board in the first place.

Okay, but that still doesn't prove that civilians have no alternative to military transport. Anyway, most of the civilians transported were scientists of one type or another (Dr. Whatsizname from the ep where Wesley lets loose a pack of nanites, for example.) Besides, much has been made of the facts that Starfleet is a piss-poor example of a "military" in anybody's book, and their stupidity with regard to civilian access to their "military" assets is damn near legendary.

[Alyeska]

TOS was capitalist, they don't count.
Does it have military markings identifying it as a government owned house?

Did the Raven say USS Raven or NCC with a number? What about the fact that private airplanes today need markings? What about liscense plates?

And it just happens to have the exact same markings as all other Fed ships, it might not be in the military, but it's part of the GOVERNMENT.

Ever hear of the SS Vico ship? Was a private non starfleet ship.

It was still a FEDERATION ship!
These ships don't have to be owned by Starfleet, just by the UFP itself.

Do you have any direct proof that Starfleet owned the ship? Did you know that any US citizen or organization that owns boats, thus are US ships? Doesn't mean the US owns them.

[Evil Jerk]

Where does it say she owns it exactly?
And perhaps on such remote colonies as Cestus III, their communist laws are relaxed somewhat.

Ok. We see people with restaraunts, private property, houses (When jake got old), businesses, ships, vineyards. There is not one single statement that private property it outlawed, NOT A SINGLE ONE. Thus the conclussion is that private property exists.

You have not one shred of evidence that those are private property, on the other hand there are numerous instances of people referring to not owning anything, for instance "Our lives are no longer ruled by the persuit of.. things"-Picard.

They might not have a physical monetary system, but they HAVE to have some sort of credits system in order to trade.

And the USSR had Rubles, your point?

We know the Federation trades, that is something that is widely shown even in the novels and the games.

Not canon.

The Federation, other then the Ferengi, are some of the more open people who conduct trade even. How the hell can you conduct trade without any money? The barter system is vastly inferior over monetary systems.

Name one instance when they have traded using money and not offers of resources and military support.

AND. In TNG Preemptive Strike a Federation colony in the DZM between Cardassian space and Federation space, there was open exchange of money in a bar INFRONT of two starfleet officers (Data and Worf). Picard even pretends to try and pay for LT Ro to have sex with him. How the hell can people move about in the Federation and do anything if the core systems have no money and the outer systems rely on money.

You're using a smelly old outpost in the DMZ as PROOF they have money?
WTF?

[Evil Jerk]

Did the Raven say USS Raven or NCC with a number? What about the fact that private airplanes today need markings? What about liscense plates?

And it just happens to have the exact same markings as all other Fed ships, it might not be in the military, but it's part of the GOVERNMENT.

Ever hear of the SS Vico ship? Was a private non starfleet ship.

It was still a FEDERATION ship!
These ships don't have to be owned by Starfleet, just by the UFP itself.

Do you have any direct proof that Starfleet owned the ship? Did you know that any US citizen or organization that owns boats, thus are US ships? Doesn't mean the US owns them.

Federation designs, Federation classes, Federation registries, Federation missions logged by Starfleet.
None of these ships have any modifications over standard designs, and most of them wear the same uniforms, which are the same as uniforms seen on some ships identified as government ships (the grey jumpsuits).

[Alyeska]

Federation designs, Federation classes, Federation registries, Federation missions logged by Starfleet.
None of these ships have any modifications over standard designs, and most of them wear the same uniforms, which are the same as uniforms seen on some ships identified as government ships (the grey jumpsuits).

So I guess there aren't any privately owned 747s eh?

[Evil Jerk]

Federation designs, Federation classes, Federation registries, Federation missions logged by Starfleet.
None of these ships have any modifications over standard designs, and most of them wear the same uniforms, which are the same as uniforms seen on some ships identified as government ships (the grey jumpsuits).

So I guess there aren't any privately owned 747s eh?

What are you talking about? Every 747 I've seen is clearly and differentley marked to show who it's owner is.

[Alyeska]

You have not one shred of evidence that those are private property, on the other hand there are numerous instances of people referring to not owning anything, for instance "Our lives are no longer ruled by the persuit of.. things"-Picard.

I keep hearing this claim, but the ONLY example given is that one quote from Picard, which incidently does not state there is no private property. It states that people's lives are no longer ruled by the persuit of things. People today are no longer ruled by the primitive urges we had 2 million years ago. Doesn't make sex any less popular. Says people don't live materialistically, doesn't say people CAN'T own things and that people don't have SOME things.

And the USSR had Rubles, your point?

The USSR didn't conduct foreign trade with Rubles, they had to use foreign currency.

Name one instance when they have traded using money and not offers of resources and military support.

Riker payed Quark money for information on the Duras Sisters. If money was illegal, then Riker's use of it while on the BRIDGE of the ship using a Federation MILITARY ship should have gotten in him trouble, yet he seemed to have no problem...

You're using a smelly old outpost in the DMZ as PROOF they have money?
WTF?

If use of money was illegal, why did Worf and Data not do something about it? Wouldn't it look odd that Starfleet personel searching for a fugitive (thus enforcing the laws) would compeltely ignore people illegally using money?

[Admiral Drason]

Federation designs, Federation classes, Federation registries, Federation missions logged by Starfleet.
None of these ships have any modifications over standard designs, and most of them wear the same uniforms, which are the same as uniforms seen on some ships identified as government ships (the grey jumpsuits).

So I guess there aren't any privately owned 747s eh?

The US Goventment doesnt build and distribute 747s. Federation does build an distribute there own ships.

[Alyeska]

Federation designs, Federation classes, Federation registries, Federation missions logged by Starfleet.
None of these ships have any modifications over standard designs, and most of them wear the same uniforms, which are the same as uniforms seen on some ships identified as government ships (the grey jumpsuits).

So I guess there aren't any privately owned 747s eh?

What are you talking about? Every 747 I've seen is clearly and differentley marked to show who it's owner is.

"None of these ships have any modifications over the standard designs"

I guess since the US Airforce has some 747s that look visually identical to the ones used by airliners, thats proof the government owns every 747. Or what about the fact that airline pilots wear a uniform that looks very similar to military dress uniforms?

[Admiral Drason]

What are you talking about? Every 747 I've seen is clearly and differentley marked to show who it's owner is.

"None of these ships have any modifications over the standard designs"

I guess since the US Airforce has some 747s that look visually identical to the ones used by airliners, thats proof the government owns every 747. Or what about the fact that airline pilots wear a uniform that looks very similar to military dress uniforms?[/quote]
yah but do air lines put US air force on the side of there planes? NO but all of the ships we see say United Federation of Planets. That means there owned and operated by the federation.

[Evil Jerk]

I keep hearing this claim, but the ONLY example given is that one quote from Picard, which incidently does not state there is no private property. It states that people's lives are no longer ruled by the persuit of things. People today are no longer ruled by the primitive urges we had 2 million years ago. Doesn't make sex any less popular. Says people don't live materialistically, doesn't say people CAN'T own things and that people don't have SOME things.

In the context Picard says it, it seemed fairly obvious that he meant property was no longer a concern.
To this day, few things contradict this.

The USSR didn't conduct foreign trade with Rubles, they had to use foreign currency.

Therefore you can't use any internal monetary system the UFP MIGHT have as prove of being able to trade.

Riker payed Quark money for information on the Duras Sisters. If money was illegal, then Riker's use of it while on the BRIDGE of the ship using a Federation MILITARY ship should have gotten in him trouble, yet he seemed to have no problem...

Who said money was illegal? They just don't use it.

If use of money was illegal, why did Worf and Data not do something about it? Wouldn't it look odd that Starfleet personel searching for a fugitive (thus enforcing the laws) would compeltely ignore people illegally using money?

Again, money doesn't have to be illegal to the extent that Starfleet officers will go arresting anybody for using Latinum or whatever in frontier zones.

[Evil Jerk]

So I guess there aren't any privately owned 747s eh?

What are you talking about? Every 747 I've seen is clearly and differentley marked to show who it's owner is.

"None of these ships have any modifications over the standard designs"

I guess since the US Airforce has some 747s that look visually identical to the ones used by airliners, thats proof the government owns every 747.

Rubbish, civ and military 747s have some differences, and like I say, are clearly marked as different, Fed ships are not.

Or what about the fact that airline pilots wear a uniform that looks very similar to military dress uniforms?

Similar, not identical, like the uniforms I spoke of.

[Alyeska]

In the context Picard says it, it seemed fairly obvious that he meant property was no longer a concern.
To this day, few things contradict this.

I guess you missed the part "You mean you don't get payed!?" bit that Lily said before hand.

Lily – “How much did this thing cost?”
Picard – “The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn’t exist in the 24th century.”
Lily – “No money? You mean you don’t get payed?1”
Picard – “The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives.”

Don’t see anything that says there ain’t any private property.

Therefore you can't use any internal monetary system the UFP MIGHT have as prove of being able to trade.

Thus the UFP has to use something else to trade with. FYI, the USSR was not true communism by any stretch of the imagination.

Who said money was illegal? They just don't use it.

Funny, its used all the time at DS9. And for people who don't get payed, they sure have a lot of money on hand.

Again, money doesn't have to be illegal to the extent that Starfleet officers will go arresting anybody for using Latinum or whatever in frontier zones.

So they do away with money only to let money be used... Riiiiight

[Alyeska]

[quote="Evil Jerk"]Rubbish, civ and military 747s have some differences, and like I say, are clearly marked as different, Fed ships are not. [quote]

What external visual differences are there between civilian and military 747s? Can't be the paint job. FYI, ST ships don't have a paint job, the hull material has its own natural color so anyone who buys a ship from the Federation gets it without any coloring.

And specially modified 747s don't count.

[Evil Jerk]

In the context Picard says it, it seemed fairly obvious that he meant property was no longer a concern.
To this day, few things contradict this.

I guess you missed the part "You mean you don't get payed!?" bit that Lily said before hand.

Lily – “How much did this thing cost?”
Picard – “The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn’t exist in the 24th century.”
Lily – “No money? You mean you don’t get payed?1”
Picard – “The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives.”

Don’t see anything that says there ain’t any private property.

Er, yes it does. If they don't get payed, how do they buy anything?
If acquisition of wealth is not important, why would anyone buy a restaurant, or a cargo ship? If you own such things, they will cost you, and if they cost you, then you must make money.

Thus the UFP has to use something else to trade with.

Assuming it DOES trade on a regular basis, the only times we have seen the government trade it used the promise of resources and support, a communistic way of trading.

FYI, the USSR was not true communism by any stretch of the imagination.

Neither is the Federation, it just wants to be.
IMO true communism is impossible.

Funny, its used all the time at DS9. And for people who don't get payed, they sure have a lot of money on hand.

I've addressed that.

So they do away with money only to let money be used... Riiiiight

They do away with money officially and have the state own everything.
That black markets thrive on the frontier is something that can't be helped, especially in communist states, why on earth would they waste their time arresting someone using latinum when more important things are at hand, especially when they themselves engage in such activities when they can.

[Evil Jerk]

What external visual differences are there between civilian and military 747s? Can't be the paint job. FYI, ST ships don't have a paint job, the hull material has its own natural color so anyone who buys a ship from the Federation gets it without any coloring.

And not one of them wants to paint it something else, or put their logos on it?
It's just a coincidence that just as every Starfleet ship has it's government logo, registry and colour, every civilian ship has it's government logo, registry and colour?

And specially modified 747s don't count.

Why? Because we never see any specially modified Fed ships?

[Alyeska]

Er, yes it does. If they don't get payed, how do they buy anything?
If acquisition of wealth is not important, why would anyone buy a restaurant, or a cargo ship? If you own such things, they will cost you, and if they cost you, then you must make money.

Replicators can make guns and guitars... Then again, as you said, how do people manage to attain the rare things they have in the first place without money? You adressed that with DS9, but how do the other people get items? And did you factor in any other possible job market OUTSIDE of the military?

I've addressed that.

Yes, the entire Federation compliment on DS9 is trafficking in blackmarket Federation goods to make money just to go to quarks.

They do away with money officially and have the state own everything.
That black markets thrive on the frontier is something that can't be helped, especially in communist states, why on earth would they waste their time arresting someone using latinum when more important things are at hand, especially when they themselves engage in such activities when they can.

So the Federation did away with all money, yet all Federation citizens traffic in black market goods, or steal Federation goods to sell on the black market for money so that they can trade with it. They did away with all private property (which can still exist in societies that don't have money FYI) even when there is no such claim, especially with Cassidy owning a freighter and Ezri's family RUNNING A FREAKING BUSINESS that is so successful that the Orion Syndicate wants a piece of the action (which they would only do with businesses making money). So in other words, Earth Might not have any money itself, but it seems that everything beyond Earth has money.

[Alyeska]

What external visual differences are there between civilian and military 747s? Can't be the paint job. FYI, ST ships don't have a paint job, the hull material has its own natural color so anyone who buys a ship from the Federation gets it without any coloring.

And not one of them wants to paint it something else, or put their logos on it?
It's just a coincidence that just as every Starfleet ship has it's government logo, registry and colour, every civilian ship has it's government logo, registry and colour?

And specially modified 747s don't count.

Why? Because we never see any specially modified Fed ships?

Can you name the number of private human owned ships seen in ST (and I mean seen, not heard of and infered)? And don't say that is evidence against private movement. We are seeing a military show, not a merchant trader show.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I think this may be going in depth. Next we'll assume that because we never get to watch anyone take a shit, there aren't any toilets -- or worse yet, that humans have somehow entirely eliminated digestion as part of some draconian government edict. Honestly, this is the last place I thought I'd run into any conspiracy theories.

[Alyeska]

Good point. We have not seen them use a toilet in any episodes, no references to restrooms (just sonic showers), no reference to having to relieve themselves at any time.

Now, do you people seriously believe that they don't have to take a crap every once in a while?

[Alyeska]

Hell, lets look at it this way.

Evidence supporting there being no money:
The time Picard said so.

Evidence supporting there is money:
Use of money on Federation planet. Vineyards on Earth. Restararaunt on Earth. Ownership of private craft. Ownership of small items. Buying passage on private craft. Buying space on freighters. Federation Citizens at Quarks. Riker went to Quarks. Ezri's family runs a successful business.

Evidence supporting there being no property
The time Picard said there was no money

Evidence supporting there being private property.
Every single time the E-D visited Federation colonies. All the private property that people have on the E-D. Sisko Sr owns a business. Picard family owns a vinyard. Cassidy owns a ship. Quark sells things to Federation citizens. Garak sells things to Federation citizens.

Hmm... It seems that the single bit of clear evidence being used to support lack of money and property is contradicted by a variety of sources...

[His Divine Shadow]

Now, do you people seriously believe that they don't have to take a crap every once in a while?

Built in transporters in their colons

[Evil Jerk]

Replicators can make guns and guitars... Then again, as you said, how do people manage to attain the rare things they have in the first place without money?
You adressed that with DS9, but how do the other people get items? And did you factor in any other possible job market OUTSIDE of the military?

Funny, all of the humans we ever saw in Quark's were military or related to the military personnel, no need to factor in others.

Yes, the entire Federation compliment on DS9 is trafficking in blackmarket Federation goods to make money just to go to quarks.

No. But the ones that go to Quark's probably are.

So the Federation did away with all money, yet all Federation citizens traffic in black market goods, or steal Federation goods to sell on the black market for money so that they can trade with it.

Correction, Starfleet officers do it.

They did away with all private property (which can still exist in societies that don't have money FYI) even when there is no such claim, especially with Cassidy owning a freighter and Ezri's family RUNNING A FREAKING BUSINESS that is so successful that the Orion Syndicate wants a piece of the action (which they would only do with businesses making money). So in other words, Earth Might not have any money itself, but it seems that everything beyond Earth has money.

The colony that Ezri's family was operating a buisness on was not a Federation colony, Cassidy's from a frontier Fed colony.

Can you name the number of private human owned ships seen in ST (and I mean seen, not heard of and infered)? And don't say that is evidence against private movement. We are seeing a military show, not a merchant trader show.

Give me a break, that's a cop out and you know it.
We see plenty of ships who's role could be fulfilled by a private vessel, but every single one of them is a Federation ship.