Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Evil Jerk]

Good point. We have not seen them use a toilet in any episodes, no references to restrooms (just sonic showers), no reference to having to relieve themselves at any time.

Now, do you people seriously believe that they don't have to take a crap every once in a while?

Since there's no evidence either way apart from our knowledge of how our own bodies work, of course they have toilets.

But, if several characters had said that they don't do it, and no evidence was presented to the contrary, that would be another matter, wouldn't it?

Evidence supporting there being no money:
The time Picard said so.

The numerous times Picard and others have said so, the numerous times they've reacted with distaste at such concepts as a free market, stock markets, use of money, etc.

Evidence supporting there is money:
Use of money on Federation planet.

In the DMZ?

Vineyards on Earth. Restararaunt on Earth.

No proof of ownership or money making.

Ownership of private craft.

Assumed ownership, from a frontier world.

Ownership of small items.

Irrelevant.

Buying passage on private craft.

Booking passage on government craft.

Buying space on freighters.

Specify.

Federation Citizens at Quarks.

Starfleet officers and relations at Quarks.

Riker went to Quarks.

And?

Ezri's family runs a successful business.

On an Orion Syndicate world..

Evidence supporting there being private property.
Every single time the E-D visited Federation colonies.

So?

All the private property that people have on the E-D.

Their trinkets?

Sisko Sr owns a business.Picard family owns a vinyard. Cassidy owns a ship.

Proof?

Quark sells things to Federation citizens. Garak sells things to Federation citizens.

Starfleet officers and relations. Who pay with Latinum.

Hmm... It seems that the single bit of clear evidence being used to support lack of money and property is contradicted by a variety of sources...

Sure, if you twist them to suit you..

[Admiral Drason]

Were talking about star fleet alyeska they do every thing from science to hauling garbage. So dont give us this shit about them only being military. Star fleet is every differnt service you can think of, lets face it no one owns there own ship in the federation.

Any one else notice that when ever some one needs to go any where they barow a shuttle from Star Fleet? Weres the rent a shuttle?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Hell, lets look at it this way.

Evidence supporting there being no money:
The time Picard said so.

Evidence supporting there is money:
Use of money on Federation planet. Vineyards on Earth. Restararaunt on Earth. Ownership of private craft. Ownership of small items. Buying passage on private craft. Buying space on freighters. Federation Citizens at Quarks. Riker went to Quarks. Ezri's family runs a successful business.

Evidence supporting there being no property
The time Picard said there was no money

Evidence supporting there being private property.
Every single time the E-D visited Federation colonies. All the private property that people have on the E-D. Sisko Sr owns a business. Picard family owns a vinyard. Cassidy owns a ship. Quark sells things to Federation citizens. Garak sells things to Federation citizens.

Hmm... It seems that the single bit of clear evidence being used to support lack of money and property is contradicted by a variety of sources...

And Picard's line in First Contact (as I've said before) is not a statement that there is no money, or that people can't get rich. His statement can basically be taken to mean that getting rich is no longer a national obsession.

[Darth Wong]

Evidence supporting there being no money:
The time Picard said so.

No stock market. No investments. No corporations.

Evidence supporting there is money:
Use of money on Federation planet. Vineyards on Earth. Restararaunt on Earth. Ownership of private craft. Ownership of small items. Buying passage on private craft. Buying space on freighters. Federation Citizens at Quarks. Riker went to Quarks. Ezri's family runs a successful business.

What a joke. The Soviet Union had rubles, the Federation has credits. They are "money", but they are not capital. As for ownership of small items, a Soviet citizen would have his car, his place, etc. He just wouldn't have the ability to legally sell and trade commodities at market value defined by supply and demand, as per a reasonably free market. Do you think there were no bars in the Soviet Union?

BTW, Ezri's family runs a successful business on New Sydney, which is not a Federation world. The fact that they left a Federation world to go to a non-Federation world and start up a business would say something to most people.

Evidence supporting there being no property
The time Picard said there was no money

The inability to sell, trade, and amass property as the commodity that it is. Where are the rich people? They've engineered territorialism and greed out of the human race?

Evidence supporting there being private property.
Every single time the E-D visited Federation colonies. All the private property that people have on the E-D. Sisko Sr owns a business. Picard family owns a vinyard. Cassidy owns a ship. Quark sells things to Federation citizens. Garak sells things to Federation citizens.

People sold trinkets and services to each other in the Soviet Union, too. But amassing of capital was strictly outlawed. Do you know nothing of how a communist economy works? BTW, as for Cassidy's ship, she paid her crew in latinum, not credits. Think about that. And please, study the way the Soviet Union functioned before trying to "disprove" any more parallels between it and the Federation; by your logic, the Soviet Union was capitalist.

Hmm... It seems that the single bit of clear evidence being used to support lack of money and property is contradicted by a variety of sources...

It seems to me that every Trekkie who tries to prove the Federation is not communist is employing a strawman distortion of communism in order to do so.

[Evil Jerk]

And Picard's line in First Contact (as I've said before) is not a statement that there is no money, or that people can't get rich. His statement can basically be taken to mean that getting rich is no longer a national obsession.

That is not the only time he speaks of this, and it's obvious that his line to Lily is in the context of not having money, as her line was "You don't get payed?".

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

[quote]Quote:
Quark sells things to Federation citizens. Garak sells things to Federation citizens.


Starfleet officers and relations. Who pay with Latinum.[/b]

And Bajorans, who presumably pay in Bajoran currency, whatever that might be. Of course all the humans that we've seen are Starfleet officers and relations, primarily because a story about the DS9 crew is not likely to involve Johnny Dildo from Canoga Park. I'm sorry, but duh.

[Alyeska]

Ok, heres an idea.

Claim #1: Federation has no property or money

Claim #2: Federation has property and money

Alright, hows about we try this. Rather then trying to rationalize evidence (as in saying there is no money, they are just wierd), how about we post every single example that explicitly supports the claim you side with.

That means anyone who supports Claim #1 has to provide evidence that clearly supports what they claim. If there is no direct statement, or no logical connection (IE, Picard saying no money, thus no property. Or living and running a vineyard, thus owning property) then you do not address the evidence.

In other words, if you supported low firepower figures, you don't go about rationalizing high figures, you ignore them and find all the low firepower figures you can.

Then once this has been done, the number of examples from claim #1 will be compared to the number of exmaples from claim #2. Logically the claim with the most evidence is the proper claim. Once that is done, THEN you can rationalize the evidence that doesn't quite fit.

[Evil Jerk]

Quote:
Quark sells things to Federation citizens. Garak sells things to Federation citizens.


Starfleet officers and relations. Who pay with Latinum.[/b]

And Bajorans, who presumably pay in Bajoran currency, whatever that might be. Of course all the humans that we've seen are Starfleet officers and relations, primarily because a story about the DS9 crew is not likely to involve Johnny Dildo from Canoga Park. I'm sorry, but duh.

Copout. DS9 in particular is not a show just about the crew, other characters were involved as well.
Babylon 5 showed itself perfectly capable of showing civilian life on the station while handling the story and the crew, was DS9 incapable of this?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Hey man, that's not fair! They've got us outgunned by... oh.

[Evil Jerk]

Ok, heres an idea.

Claim #1: Federation has no property or money

Claim #2: Federation has property and money

Alright, hows about we try this. Rather then trying to rationalize evidence (as in saying there is no money, they are just wierd), how about we post every single example that explicitly supports the claim you side with.

That means anyone who supports Claim #1 has to provide evidence that clearly supports what they claim. If there is no direct statement, or no logical connection (IE, Picard saying no money, thus no property. Or living and running a vineyard, thus owning property) then you do not address the evidence.

You have no evidence, you have leaps of logic.
The Picards run a vineyard, therefore they must own it, in a society where the accumilation of wealth and things is not allowed.
Hmm..

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Quote:
Quark sells things to Federation citizens. Garak sells things to Federation citizens.


Starfleet officers and relations. Who pay with Latinum.[/b]

And Bajorans, who presumably pay in Bajoran currency, whatever that might be. Of course all the humans that we've seen are Starfleet officers and relations, primarily because a story about the DS9 crew is not likely to involve Johnny Dildo from Canoga Park. I'm sorry, but duh.

Copout. DS9 in particular is not a show just about the crew, other characters were involved as well.
Babylon 5 showed itself perfectly capable of showing civilian life on the station while handling the story and the crew, was DS9 incapable of this?

It didn't seem to be as much a priority for that show. The majority of the series revolved around the Dominion War, not Leave-It-To-Beaver with the O'Briens.

[Alyeska]

ST:E entry

New Sydney. City on an Earth colony world. Liam Bilby's wife and two children lived in New Sydney, although he resided on Farius Prime. ("Honor Among Thieves" [DS9]).

[Evil Jerk]

Copout. DS9 in particular is not a show just about the crew, other characters were involved as well.
Babylon 5 showed itself perfectly capable of showing civilian life on the station while handling the story and the crew, was DS9 incapable of this?

It didn't seem to be as much a priority for that show. The majority of the series revolved around the Dominion War, not Leave-It-To-Beaver with the O'Briens.

I'm sorry, but that's a crock of shit.
It had some directionless seasons where there wasn't even a Dominion, let alone the Dominion War, the notion that not once would they show a more capitalistic lifestyle from Fed citizens because they couldn't rather than because they didn't want to is ridiculous.

[Evil Jerk]

ST:E entry

New Sydney. City on an Earth colony world. Liam Bilby's wife and two children lived in New Sydney, although he resided on Farius Prime. ("Honor Among Thieves" [DS9]).

How does Earth colony = Fed world?

[Alyeska]

Ok, heres an idea.

Claim #1: Federation has no property or money

Claim #2: Federation has property and money

Alright, hows about we try this. Rather then trying to rationalize evidence (as in saying there is no money, they are just wierd), how about we post every single example that explicitly supports the claim you side with.

That means anyone who supports Claim #1 has to provide evidence that clearly supports what they claim. If there is no direct statement, or no logical connection (IE, Picard saying no money, thus no property. Or living and running a vineyard, thus owning property) then you do not address the evidence.

You have no evidence, you have leaps of logic.
The Picards run a vineyard, therefore they must own it, in a society where the accumilation of wealth and things is not allowed.
Hmm..

Oh, brilliant. You acknowledge I have more evidence then you do, but then claim my evidence is useless in order to get around it.

Every single time we see Federation people use money is an example of a monetary system in the Federation.

You just can't accept that you might be wrong.

And its a leap of logic to assume that the Picard vineyard is NOT owned by them? What evidence do you have not supporting it? Or what about "Sisko's", the restaraunt NAMED Sisko's. Thats pretty damned compelling evidence of private property.

I find it pathetic that the only way you can win the debate is to claim that anything that shows private property or money is a "leap of logic".

[Alyeska]

ST:E entry

New Sydney. City on an Earth colony world. Liam Bilby's wife and two children lived in New Sydney, although he resided on Farius Prime. ("Honor Among Thieves" [DS9]).

How does Earth colony = Fed world?

Might they have said Independent Colony had it not been Federation? We already know that a Trill family runs a successful business on a Earth colony world.

[Alyeska]

FYI, Farius Prime is the Orion Sydicate world and Ramius traveled between New Sydney and Farius Prime.

[Evil Jerk]

Ok, heres an idea.

Claim #1: Federation has no property or money

Claim #2: Federation has property and money

Alright, hows about we try this. Rather then trying to rationalize evidence (as in saying there is no money, they are just wierd), how about we post every single example that explicitly supports the claim you side with.

That means anyone who supports Claim #1 has to provide evidence that clearly supports what they claim. If there is no direct statement, or no logical connection (IE, Picard saying no money, thus no property. Or living and running a vineyard, thus owning property) then you do not address the evidence.

You have no evidence, you have leaps of logic.
The Picards run a vineyard, therefore they must own it, in a society where the accumilation of wealth and things is not allowed.
Hmm..

Oh, brilliant. You acknowledge I have more evidence then you do, but then claim my evidence is useless in order to get around it.

When did I acknowledge that?

Every single time we see Federation people use money is an example of a monetary system in the Federation.

Starfleet officers using latinum on the outskirts of the UFP is not proof of anything.
Name me one time where a Fed civilian uses real money inside the Federation.

You just can't accept that you might be wrong.

I'll accept that I'm wrong when you present hard evidence.

And its a leap of logic to assume that the Picard vineyard is NOT owned by them? What evidence do you have not supporting it?

In a society where the accumilation of wealth is shunned, how can he own a vineyard? If he did own it, he'd have to make money and.. accumilate wealth!

Or what about "Sisko's", the restaraunt NAMED Sisko's. Thats pretty damned compelling evidence of private property.

Because he puts a sign up at the entrance?

I find it pathetic that the only way you can win the debate is to claim that anything that shows private property or money is a "leap of logic".

Because you do not recocgnise the context they are in.

[Evil Jerk]

ST:E entry

New Sydney. City on an Earth colony world. Liam Bilby's wife and two children lived in New Sydney, although he resided on Farius Prime. ("Honor Among Thieves" [DS9]).

How does Earth colony = Fed world?

Might they have said Independent Colony had it not been Federation? We already know that a Trill family runs a successful business on a Earth colony world.

If it was part of the UFP, would they not say Federation colony world?
All that Earth colony means is that it's a colony inhabited by humans.

FYI, Farius Prime is the Orion Sydicate world and Ramius traveled between New Sydney and Farius Prime.

Perhaps not an OS world as such, but IIRC they control a lot on it.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Quote:
Or what about "Sisko's", the restaraunt NAMED Sisko's. Thats pretty damned compelling evidence of private property.


Because he puts a sign up at the entrance?

That seems somewhat simplistic, but yes. If it were not his property, and if the idea that personal property is bad had been somehow indocrinated into the general populace, why would he put up a sign claiming it as his own?

[Isolder74]

What are you talking about? Every 747 I've seen is clearly and differentley marked to show who it's owner is.

"None of these ships have any modifications over the standard designs"

I guess since the US Airforce has some 747s that look visually identical to the ones used by airliners, thats proof the government owns every 747.

Rubbish, civ and military 747s have some differences, and like I say, are clearly marked as different, Fed ships are not.

Military 747's are majorly different then a Civi model. They include Air Force One, and the Air Comand And Control Aircraft. They have much of the internal place built as a Combat Operation Center. A Airforce General or the President could run a operation or the country from on of these planes. Since when does a 747 have RT links to Spy sats, awack's, ect.

[Alyeska]

Evil Jerk, your doing it again. Your taking evidence that doesn't support what you believe and trying to rationalize it rather then find evidence that DOES support what you believe.

You keep comming back to a SINGLE piece of evidence. Picard's statement durring First Contact.

Since you have offered not one single piece of evidence besides that, I shall conclude that this is all you can find.

You have a single piece of evidence, and it is diagloge at that.

The fact that Sisko owns his own restaraunt, the Picard family has a vineyard, Cassidy has a freighter, Ezri's family has a business, and the SF crew on DS9 spends money on the Promenade is my bit of evidence.

Don't even think of trying to rationalize what I have. You have but a single piece of evidence to your claim. You can rationalize other evidence when your claim has the largest amount of compelling evidence. However there is more compelling evidence that supports private property and money. Thus the simple conclussion is that there is private property and money.

FYI, by your line of reasoning, TDIC calcs are valid as standard ST firepower figures.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Evil Jerk, your doing it again. Your taking evidence that doesn't support what you believe and trying to rationalize it rather then find evidence that DOES support what you believe.

You keep comming back to a SINGLE piece of evidence. Picard's statement durring First Contact.

Since you have offered not one single piece of evidence besides that, I shall conclude that this is all you can find.

You have a single piece of evidence, and it is diagloge at that.

The fact that Sisko owns his own restaraunt, the Picard family has a vineyard, Cassidy has a freighter, Ezri's family has a business, and the SF crew on DS9 spends money on the Promenade is my bit of evidence.

Don't even think of trying to rationalize what I have. You have but a single piece of evidence to your claim. You can rationalize other evidence when your claim has the largest amount of compelling evidence. However there is more compelling evidence that supports private property and money. Thus the simple conclussion is that there is private property and money.

FYI, by your line of reasoning, TDIC calcs are valid as standard ST firepower figures.

Further, your evidentiary dialogue does not even explicitly support your position.

[Evil Jerk]

That seems somewhat simplistic, but yes. If it were not his property, and if the idea that personal property is bad had been somehow indocrinated into the general populace, why would he put up a sign claiming it as his own?

How is he claiming it as his own?
It's the name of his restaurant, what people will remember to call it when they want to go there.

Evil Jerk, your doing it again. Your taking evidence that doesn't support what you believe and trying to rationalize it rather then find evidence that DOES support what you believe.

You keep comming back to a SINGLE piece of evidence. Picard's statement durring First Contact.

Since you have offered not one single piece of evidence besides that, I shall conclude that this is all you can find.

I and others have already presented any evidence we need.
You have a single piece of evidence, and it is diagloge at that.

The fact that Sisko owns his own restaraunt, the Picard family has a vineyard, Cassidy has a freighter, Ezri's family has a business, and the SF crew on DS9 spends money on the Promenade is my bit of evidence.

Don't even think of trying to rationalize what I have. You have but a single piece of evidence to your claim. You can rationalize other evidence when your claim has the largest amount of compelling evidence. However there is more compelling evidence that supports private property and money. Thus the simple conclussion is that there is private property and money.

My simple claim is that your evidence is faulty.
If it is faulty, I have no need to bring up more evidence, and I WILL point it out.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

How is he claiming it as his own?
It's the name of his restaurant, what people will remember to call it when they want to go there.

He's claiming it as his own by putting up a sign that says it's his. (Sisko's, as opposed to UFP State-Sponsored Food Repository). You also appear to have uttered a tacit admission that it is his restaurant. (Second line of the quote.) If this is erroneous, please let me know.