ST vs SW split

[SirNitram]

Or that Coruscant can afford *Gasp* a better shield. As they're, you know, the Galactic Capital. Presuming it's double layered rotating shields are the norm is pretty absurd.

[Stark]

Double-layering would make it far more difficult to penetrate with bombardment; just have some software playing Go with the segments

Maybe there's a specific technology or method for passing through any shield (like extreme extreme low speed or something) that is just useless most of the time because they'll vape you on the other side (or shake the shield around or something)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Or that Coruscant can afford *Gasp* a better shield. As they're, you know, the Galactic Capital. Presuming it's double layered rotating shields are the norm is pretty absurd.

No need to be an asshole, as usual, Nitram. And I said nothing about the fact that there were double layered shields, if you'd read.

[Crown]

Has anyone got a screen grab of RotJ? Because I can't remember but didn't it show that the shield completely encompased Endor?

I mean we are all clear with movies > EU books right?

[Illuminatus Primus]

It never showed that, and it seems highly unlikely anyway. According to novelisation, when the generator went down, moon and Death Star were totally exposed; a single generator upon which all defense is predicated couldn't have been projecting a full planetary shield alone.

[Crown]

It never showed that, and it seems highly unlikely anyway. According to novelisation, when the generator went down, moon and Death Star were totally exposed; a single generator upon which all defense is predicated couldn't have been projecting a full planetary shield alone.

What assumption are you basing that conclusion on?

All that is required is that the shield (assuming Endor has the same circumfrance and gravitational constant as Earth here) propergates 8km tangential to the surface of the planet every second, and is initiated at a hight greater than the largest obstacle on the planet.

If you watch TPM when the Gungan's deploy their tactical shields you see that they have amazing control of the mobile shields that are carried by beasts of burden.

Consider this; they start deploying the shields, a single stream of 'shield energy' is sent directly upwards, then having reached some arbitary point the shield energy is then refracted (by means we don't know) from its vertical tragectory and starts moving out like a dome. What we know, is that from inspection this dome structure is completely under control by the Gungans, as it doesn't popergate by the law of gravity. Simply put; the dome didn't 'fall' like it was under the acceleration of a gravity anywhere near the acceleration of Earth's, despite the fact that Naboo appears to have a similar gravitational magnitude.

So why couldn't one shield generator, espesicially the size of the one on Endor, with a few decades separating the technology, not totally encompas the entire forest moon?

There isn't alot of other explanations for it that would accurately satisfy why the rebels would need the stolen imperial shuttle.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because why would they bother to make more vulnerable shields based on interlocking segments of local shields if a single relatively small generator could do the job?

We know from AOTC ICS that flying craft cannot penetrate shield perimeters. The shield doesn't need to englobe the whole world, and such a statement is not supported by evidence.

As for Mon Cals bombarding the planet--I don't think they'd have time before the fleet and Death Star eradicated them.

[Lord of the Farce]

Refuted, unless you consider AT-ATs and SPHAs fairly small.

Refuted... only if you happen to think that one of the Gungan's portable shields is the same size as the one used by the Rebels at Hoth. Relatively speaking, AT-ATs and SPHAs are smaller than the battle droids at Naboo.

Pretty much anything is small using that distinction.

Perhaps you take another look at my original quote again, and this time try to follow the context (hint: "ref. TPM").

[Crown]

Because why would they bother to make more vulnerable shields based on interlocking segments of local shields if a single relatively small generator could do the job?

One word; redundancy.

We know from AOTC ICS that flying craft cannot penetrate shield perimeters. The shield doesn't need to englobe the whole world, and such a statement is not supported by evidence.

Ah excuse me but you're the one who posted;

It never showed that, and it seems highly unlikely anyway. According to novelisation, when the generator went down, moon and Death Star were totally exposed; a single generator upon which all defense is predicated couldn't have been projecting a full planetary shield alone.

I was using the evidence that you posted. Am I wrong here?

As for Mon Cals bombarding the planet--I don't think they'd have time before the fleet and Death Star eradicated them.

I agree, but I was never arguing that point.

My entire post was refuting the assumption that a single shield generator couldn't encompase all of Endor. Are you going to, oh I don't know, address the issue?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Simple: no single shield generator has ever been observed to do so. All cases of planetary shields had many regional shield segments interlocking over the whole globe.

The burden is on you to justify, not me. I'm only establishing the observed limits.

Furthermore, all that quote says is the moon and Death Star were unprotected after the generator blew-up. So you understand that to mean the shield must've circumnavigated the whole world? Even regional defense if lost would've rendered the moon unprotected. My statement says nothing to the effect.

Furthermore, the assertion that the shield protected much of the moon at all is pretty weak in my opinion; we never observe this directly. About the only thing for it is that quote which suggests the moon had some sort of protection when the shield was up, and the fact that the Tyderium needs clearance to get through (though I don't remember them saying they were going to deactivate a shield for them, just that they'd be cleared--they needed code-clearance so the Imps wouldn't be alerted way in advance, and the Executor could've vaped them, so clearance was a priority, shield or no shield over the moon).

[Crown]

Simple: no single shield generator has ever been observed to do so. All cases of planetary shields had many regional shield segments interlocking over the whole globe.

Wrong. In RotJ, a single shield generator (the one on Endor) completely envolops the 900km diameter Death Star. While I happily grant the scales are significantly different, the principal is the same.

The burden is on you to justify, not me. I'm only establishing the observed limits.

No you are not. You have not justified it beyond anything 'but in the EU..' without recognising that RotJ totally rejects this view (as does TPM).

Furthermore, all that quote says is the moon and Death Star were unprotected after the generator blew-up. So you understand that to mean the shield must've circumnavigated the whole world? Even regional defense if lost would've rendered the moon unprotected. My statement says nothing to the effect.

The word 'totally' exposed the moon to imply a world wide shield, not a tactical. Ackbar (in his briefing), mentions the 'forest moon of Endor' as a singular and specific point (hate going all sophistry here), but in TESB Veers says 'a small area of Hoth' ... there is a clear difference. The evidence does not support just a partial shield any more than a planetary one, from here. However later evidence lends more credance to a world wide shield. (see below)

Furthermore, the assertion that the shield protected much of the moon at all is pretty weak in my opinion; we never observe this directly. About the only thing for it is that quote which suggests the moon had some sort of protection when the shield was up, and the fact that the Tyderium needs clearance to get through (though I don't remember them saying they were going to deactivate a shield for them, just that they'd be cleared--they needed code-clearance so the Imps wouldn't be alerted way in advance, and the Executor could've vaped them, so clearance was a priority, shield or no shield over the moon).

This is the thing; my memory is remembering that shuttle Tyderium had to stand by so that the Imps would 'deactivate the shield' for them to go to Endor. If this is true than I can see a very good justification for a planetary shield.

If I am wrong than the evidence favours a limited tactical shield.

[SirNitram]

Or that Coruscant can afford *Gasp* a better shield. As they're, you know, the Galactic Capital. Presuming it's double layered rotating shields are the norm is pretty absurd.

No need to be an asshole, as usual, Nitram. And I said nothing about the fact that there were double layered shields, if you'd read.

What a lovely non-rebuttal, Primus. If you post something as absurd as 'All shields must be identically powerful to the most powerful instance of one', of course you're going to get mocked.

[Crown]

Does anyone else hear that sound? It is the sound of a house of cards being toppeled;

"At the center of the briefing room was a large, circular light-table, projected above which a holographic image of the unfinished Imperial Death Star hovered beside the Moon of Endor, whose scintillating protective defleector shield encompassed them both."

Does the dance of victory!

QED peoples!

[Ender]

Does anyone else hear that sound? It is the sound of a house of cards being toppeled;

"At the center of the briefing room was a large, circular light-table, projected above which a holographic image of the unfinished Imperial Death Star hovered beside the Moon of Endor, whose scintillating protective defleector shield encompassed them both."

Does the dance of victory!

QED peoples!

While I agree Endor was shielded, movies > novels, and movie shawed something different, therefore that is irrelevent.

[Crown]

While I agree Endor was shielded, movies > novels, and movie shawed something different, therefore that is irrelevent.

I want someone, anyone to provide a screengrab of the SE RotJ, as this novelisation came out with that movie, not the original RotJ. And as we all know (unfortunately) SE > Original.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Screenshot of what? You don't honestly think the hologram shows the shield around both, do you?

[Crown]

Screenshot of what? You don't honestly think the hologram shows the shield around both, do you?

That is how I remember the SE RotJ, I have provided the novelization quote (based on the SE), so from which confirms what I have been arguing from the first post.

So unless some one provides a screengrab of the SE RotJ scene aboard Home One, I think we have our answer.

[Ghost Rider]

The odd part is that the shield provides of very small bit of curvature around the part of Endor and the encircles the DS2.

Then they blow up the holographic DS2.

Still an encircling shield would explain the need for a commando team and not just simply blow up the area around the shield generator.

I mean heck what made Vader and gang in ESB not roast the rebels is he wanted a clean bombardment(ESB paperback pg 46, beginning of chapter 4)

[Darth Wong]

Screenshot of what? You don't honestly think the hologram shows the shield around both, do you?

So what if it doesn't? It doesn't show the atmosphere either, or the Imperial starships known to be in orbit at the time.

[Crown]

As for Mon Cals bombarding the planet--I don't think they'd have time before the fleet and Death Star eradicated them.

I agree, but I was never arguing that point.

I would like to officially retract this now, since Ghost Rider (and Mike) just pointed out the bleeding obvious; the Rebel's didn't know that the DS was operational or that the Death's Head Squadron was at Endor.

If an orbital bombardment was an option (which with a tactical shield most certainly is), then they would have done that instead.

[The Kernel]

So what if it doesn't? It doesn't show the atmosphere either, or the Imperial starships known to be in orbit at the time.

But it DOES show the shield around the Death Star and around a small area of Endor right? Why would it show a representation of the shield, yet not all of it? Don't you think that might be important given the mission?

[wautd]

Wouldnt it been easier to equip the DSII with a shield generator of iets own?

[Darth Wong]

So what if it doesn't? It doesn't show the atmosphere either, or the Imperial starships known to be in orbit at the time.

But it DOES show the shield around the Death Star and around a small area of Endor right? Why would it show a representation of the shield, yet not all of it? Don't you think that might be important given the mission?

The fact that the novelization explicitly describes the forest moon being shielded is enough evidence to outweigh your preferred interpretation of this ambiguity.

[Ghost Rider]

So what if it doesn't? It doesn't show the atmosphere either, or the Imperial starships known to be in orbit at the time.

But it DOES show the shield around the Death Star and around a small area of Endor right? Why would it show a representation of the shield, yet not all of it? Don't you think that might be important given the mission?

Is it?

If they could drop a ship on the other side of Endor with their own vessel, and they use ground vehicles to make to the shield, why didn't they?

And if you say time table...how so?

I mean they never said how long the Emperor was going to stay there. To assume he was going to leave that evening and they must do the attack that day is the same as assuming the shield encompass a small portion of Endor.

Also before we go into the Alliance is touchy feely, nowhere indicated that they even knew of the Ewok's existence, so what would prevent them from using that fleet to roast the shield generator?

[The Kernel]

The fact that the novelization explicitly describes the forest moon being shielded is enough evidence to outweigh your preferred interpretation of this ambiguity.

Well, even if we assume that all of Endor was shielded, it must be something drastically different from a standard planetary shield generator. Even if you throw out Ukio as being a crappy setup, Bothawui was described as having one of the best planetary defense systems, yet the loss of a single generator around Devan'stram (sp) was enough to blow a hole in the entire network large enough to shoot through, and keep it open for several hours with the remaining generators unable to pick up the slack.

I would suggest (as I already did) that the Endor shield was NOT a full planetary shield system (one capable of withstanding a siege by a large fleet for weeks) but an anti-bombardment shield that could encompass the entire world and the Death Star II, yet it would not have nearly the power of a standard planetary shield. This is the only solution that truly fits the evidence we have, unless we want to suggest that in a Universe with a static technology base, the Empire was somehow able to crank out a shield that was not only more effective than the best planetary shield systems, but significantly smaller too.