Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Alyeska]

How is he claiming it as his own?
It's the name of his restaurant, what people will remember to call it when they want to go there.

Emphasis mine

I and others have already presented any evidence we need.

You have provided a single piece of evidence that supports your position. That is not enough.

My simple claim is that your evidence is faulty.
If it is faulty, I have no need to bring up more evidence, and I WILL point it out.

You claim the evidence is faulty by attempting to rationalize it to fit with your single piece of evidence. That is improper.

You find the two claims. You find the amount of evidence that supports either side, NOTHING MORE. No rationalizing, NOTHING. You only find evidence that supports your side, you do NOT attack the other side untill you have found all of your SUPPOTRING evidence. Then what you do is compare the number of examples from either side. If one claim has vast amounts more of support, it is now the true fact and THEN you rationalize the evidence that doesn't support it.

You have a single piece of evidence. Your evidence is outnumbered by contradicting evidence. Thus your evidence is meaningless.

Lets put it this way. Either the Federation does or does not have money and private property. Seeing as your evidence is but a single example, and it only supports HALF of your claim and is outnumbered by evidence that supports the existance of private property and money, your claim is invalid.

You have
A: Failed to provide enough evidence for your claim
B: Failed to disprove the other side through supporting evidence
C: Attempted to disprove something with little information to support the alternate side

Lets look at it this way. How much evidence is there for Evolution? What type of evidence is it? How much evidence is there for Christian Creation? Answer, the Bible. What type of evidence is it? Hersay. Which evidence is supperior? Does disproving one automatically make the other true?

Try and use your brain.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Alyeska, please take note of this, as I don't want to be accused of repeating myself incessantly:

Picard's line from First Contact regarding the pursuit of wealth is NOT an explicit statement that the pursuit of wealth is not an option.

[E1701]

Ok, Aly, here's some stuff you can toss on the fire, if you feel like, anyhow...

It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I'm neither competant nor qualified to answer those. But I've got to make a ruling, to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We have all been dancing around the basic issue - does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Commander Data has the freedom to choose.
- Phllipa, TNG/"The Measure of a Man"

'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied - chains us all, irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie - as wisdom and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on... we are all damaged.
- Picard to Admiral Norah Satie. TNG/"The Drumhead"

Relax, Brother. Nog isn't going to destroy the Ferengi way of life. He just wants a job with better hours.
- Rom to Quark, on Nog joining Starfleet, DS9/"Family Business"

I tried. I tried my best to run my establishment under the occupation. But you know what? It's no fun. I don't like Cardassians - they're mean and arrogant. And I can't stand the Jem'Hadar. They're creepy. They just stand there like statues, staring at you. That's it. I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing business with these people. I want the Federation back. I want to sell root beer again!
- Quark to Kira, DS9/"Behind the Lines"

For a show that is centered around what is essentially a military organization, you usually have to look for the sub-text in the events within an episode, and remind yourself that it is just a show, and discounting Voyager, involves stories, ideas, and references that are meant to inspire thought, and careful contemplation.

Based on what we have seen in TNG+, I would say that what we have is certainly not communism, nor even really socialism, but rather, an upswing in the number and presence of the "New Humans" Roddenberry took great pains to describe in the novelization of The Motion Picture.

[Evil Jerk]

How is he claiming it as his own?
It's the name of his restaurant, what people will remember to call it when they want to go there.

Emphasis mine

You have provided a single piece of evidence that supports your position. That is not enough.

I have cited numerous instances where they have shown that money and the accumilation of wealth is shunned, a large part of "The Neutral Zone" covers this.

You claim the evidence is faulty by attempting to rationalize it to fit with your single piece of evidence. That is improper.

You find the two claims. You find the amount of evidence that supports either side, NOTHING MORE. No rationalizing, NOTHING. You only find evidence that supports your side, you do NOT attack the other side untill you have found all of your SUPPOTRING evidence. Then what you do is compare the number of examples from either side. If one claim has vast amounts more of support, it is now the true fact and THEN you rationalize the evidence that doesn't support it.

You have a single piece of evidence. Your evidence is outnumbered by contradicting evidence. Thus your evidence is meaningless.

However, YOUR evidence is not really evidence for your side, the majority of it is misinterpreted, the rest is rationizable, but this does not alter the fact that you are dishonestly claiming something to support you when it does not.
Furthermore you are attempting to make it appear as if the First Contact line is my only evidence, when it is not. Stop rigging it so that you come on top.

[Evil Jerk]

Alyeska, please take note of this, as I don't want to be accused of repeating myself incessantly:

Picard's line from First Contact regarding the pursuit of wealth is NOT an explicit statement that the pursuit of wealth is not an option.

Sure, if you take it out of context.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, please take note of this, as I don't want to be accused of repeating myself incessantly:

Picard's line from First Contact regarding the pursuit of wealth is NOT an explicit statement that the pursuit of wealth is not an option.

Interesting. Lily asks if Picard gets payed, and technically he did not say no.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Alyeska, please take note of this, as I don't want to be accused of repeating myself incessantly:

Picard's line from First Contact regarding the pursuit of wealth is NOT an explicit statement that the pursuit of wealth is not an option.

Sure, if you take it out of context.

What context is there to take it out of? Lily asked whether Picard gets paid, Picard answers that getting rich isn't the "driving force" in 24th Century life. For all we know, he was embarrassed about the size of his paycheck and just didn't want her to laugh at him. You have to admit that even in context, there are many ways to interpret Picard's statement. And keep in mind that how much personal wealth he had wasn't the topmost on his mind in that situation. He was probably going for the answer that would end the discussion the fastest.

[Evil Jerk]

Alyeska, please take note of this, as I don't want to be accused of repeating myself incessantly:

Picard's line from First Contact regarding the pursuit of wealth is NOT an explicit statement that the pursuit of wealth is not an option.

Interesting. Lily asks if Picard gets payed, and technically he did not say no.

Picard answered in his typical smug tone, the same type he used in "The Neutral Zone".
In any case, if he DID get payed, would he not say "we do get payed, but we do not place such importance on the accumlation of wealth as you do", or something like that.

[Alyeska]

I have cited numerous instances where they have shown that money and the accumilation of wealth is shunned, a large part of "The Neutral Zone" covers this.

Then post supporting evidence rather then claims.

However, YOUR evidence is not really evidence for your side, the majority of it is misinterpreted, the rest is rationizable, but this does not alter the fact that you are dishonestly claiming something to support you when it does not.
Furthermore you are attempting to make it appear as if the First Contact line is my only evidence, when it is not. Stop rigging it so that you come on top.

Gee, when people use money, I assume its money, and not monopoly play money. Gee, the fact that First Contact is the only piece of evidence you have attempted to post made me think thats all you had since when asked to post more evidence, you refused. Gee, the fact that people use money, run businesses, own vineyards, own ships, spend money, and have private property in their quarters when you have yet to provide any plausable explination against this with VERY LITTLE DIRECT evidence supporting your claim. Infact, my expamples currently outnumber your examples (you got a grand total of two. I got over a dozen examples).

[E1701]

Kirk said much the same thing to bail on the pizza bill in ST:4... and that we know for a fact was some not-so-subtle dodgery on his part, as he still had cash at hand from selling his glasses.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You can have any colour you like, as long as it's beige, and has a fed logo stped on everything.

That could just be like a pass port. To let people know that the occupants are Federation citizens.

You mean pirates can see inside the ship, and don't bother to notice the english markings and NCC number? or the USS but look to see the fed symbol on the controls, meticulous ain't they?

Things may be different in space

However, I see your point.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Alyeska, please take note of this, as I don't want to be accused of repeating myself incessantly:

Picard's line from First Contact regarding the pursuit of wealth is NOT an explicit statement that the pursuit of wealth is not an option.

Interesting. Lily asks if Picard gets payed, and technically he did not say no.

Picard answered in his typical smug tone, the same type he used in "The Neutral Zone".
In any case, if he DID get payed, would he not say "we do get payed, but we do not place such importance on the accumlation of wealth as you do", or something like that.

He would have, if -- again -- he had not had more important things on his mind. His answer really just boiled down to him saying, "That's not important."

[Evil Jerk]

I have cited numerous instances where they have shown that money and the accumilation of wealth is shunned, a large part of "The Neutral Zone" covers this.

Then post supporting evidence rather then claims.

I have. You then rationalize them to your point of view, something you accuse me of, such as the fact that there are no private ships, no free press, etc.

Gee, when people use money, I assume its money, and not monopoly play money.

You have NO examples of UFP citizens using money, you have examples of Starfleet officers using latinum on the frontier, which is a red herring.

Gee, the fact that First Contact is the only piece of evidence you have attempted to post made me think thats all you had since when asked to post more evidence, you refused. Gee, the fact that people use money, run businesses, own vineyards, own ships, spend money, and have private property in their quarters when you have yet to provide any plausable explination against this with VERY LITTLE DIRECT evidence supporting your claim. Infact, my expamples currently outnumber your examples (you got a grand total of two. I got over a dozen examples).

You simply ignore or rationalise the evidence I do produce, and bring forth your own pieces of faulty evidence which you still claim are all direct pieces of evidence, even though they're not.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Kirk said much the same thing to bail on the pizza bill in ST:4... and that we know for a fact was some not-so-subtle dodgery on his part, as he still had cash at hand from selling his glasses.

Hey, you're right! I forgot about that -- Kirk stiffed the bitch! Go, Kirk!

[Evil Jerk]

Interesting. Lily asks if Picard gets payed, and technically he did not say no.

Picard answered in his typical smug tone, the same type he used in "The Neutral Zone".
In any case, if he DID get payed, would he not say "we do get payed, but we do not place such importance on the accumlation of wealth as you do", or something like that.

He would have, if -- again -- he had not had more important things on his mind. His answer really just boiled down to him saying, "That's not important."

We can spend all day looking for complicated alternatives to what he meant, but that's just useless.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I have. You then rationalize them to your point of view, something you accuse me of, such as the fact that there are no private ships, no free press, etc.

No free press? Then who were those people with the lights and cameras on NCC 1701-B in ST:VI? Looked like reporters to me. Oh wait -- I forgot. They were around in TNG. Thus, reporters no longer exist.

[Evil Jerk]

I have. You then rationalize them to your point of view, something you accuse me of, such as the fact that there are no private ships, no free press, etc.

No free press? Then who were those people with the lights and cameras on NCC 1701-B in ST:VI? Looked like reporters to me. Oh wait -- I forgot. They were around in TNG. Thus, reporters no longer exist.

Must I point out that TOS was a capitalist society again?

[E1701]

We could also take Picard literally here... they've got money, but since you'd have to be a complete goddamned moron to starve with replicators around, money just ain't that big a deal anymore...

We see this clearly from Jadzia Dax in "Playing God" (this is right after she goes from the quiet, shy science officer to the raging hormonal beat-the-hell-out-of-Klingons-and-enjoy-it bad-girl). She wins big at Quark's dabo table, then her new initiate Arjin walks up, and she wanders off with him... leaving her cash on the table. Can't see too many people doing that in a modern casino...

[Kamakazie Sith]

Sisko Sr owns a business.Picard family owns a vinyard. Cassidy owns a ship.

Proof?

Proof?! It says so in the god damn episode!

[Evil Jerk]

Sisko Sr owns a business.Picard family owns a vinyard. Cassidy owns a ship.

Proof?

Proof?! It says so in the god damn episode!

Where does it say they actually OWN and paid for the vineyard?

[Alyeska]

I have. You then rationalize them to your point of view, something you accuse me of, such as the fact that there are no private ships, no free press, etc.

Lets get something straight. You have not provided a single piece of evidence to support your claim. You make references to episodes and movies, nothing more. Shit, I had to supply your fucking reference for First Contact.

You have NO examples of UFP citizens using money, you have examples of Starfleet officers using latinum on the frontier, which is a red herring.

Jake is not a Starfleet Officer, and he used GPL to pay for things. The Federation DMZ near Cardassia IS Federation territory, and money was actively exchanged in the bar. Further more we have seen plenty of episodes of DS9 that indicate GPL is a AQ/BQ standard monetary. In the DS9 episode "Who Mourns for Morn?" Morn had assisted in stealing 1000 bars of GPL from the Lissepian Central Bank. The fact that non Ferengi were trying to steal it from Morn kinda indicates GPL isn't a mere Ferengin thing.

You simply ignore or rationalise the evidence I do produce

What evidence is that? The only evidence so far is something I PROVIDED. You haven't provided shit.

-and bring forth your own pieces of faulty evidence which you still claim are all direct pieces of evidence, even though they're not.

Gee, using MONEY, running a restaraunt WITH YOUR NAME ON IT, OWNING a BUSINESS, OWNING a SHIP. Call me stupid, but that seems like pretty clear evidence to me.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I have cited numerous instances where they have shown that money and the accumilation of wealth is shunned, a large part of "The Neutral Zone" covers this.

No, greed is shunned.

[Alyeska]

Where does it say they actually OWN and paid for the vineyard?

What the hell is wrong with you? At the moment I am not even sure you own the clothers your wearing.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I have. You then rationalize them to your point of view, something you accuse me of, such as the fact that there are no private ships, no free press, etc.

No free press? Then who were those people with the lights and cameras on NCC 1701-B in ST:VI? Looked like reporters to me. Oh wait -- I forgot. They were around in TNG. Thus, reporters no longer exist.

Must I point out that TOS was a capitalist society again?

No, but it would help if you could point out why they have an internal economy (credits) and can exchange that for external currencies (latinum, which presumably they purchase somehow), why Data took was packing up personal property when personal property is verboten (presumably he would know all the laws and statutes regarding this subject and would naturally follow all of them) but you still claim in spite of these facts that money and personal property don't exist.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Proof?! It says so in the god damn episode!

Where does it say they actually OWN and paid for the vineyard?

Ummm I dunno usually when people say "That's my car; This is my family vineyard" It usually means it's theirs.