Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Evil Jerk]

I have. You then rationalize them to your point of view, something you accuse me of, such as the fact that there are no private ships, no free press, etc.

Lets get something straight. You have not provided a single piece of evidence to support your claim. You make references to episodes and movies, nothing more. Shit, I had to supply your fucking reference for First Contact.

It's all references to the episodes and movies, what else is there?

Jake is not a Starfleet Officer, and he used GPL to pay for things.

Okay, which part of Starfleet officers and relations eluded you?

The Federation DMZ near Cardassia IS Federation territory, and money was actively exchanged in the bar.

Frontier virtually uncontrolled territory in the DMZ..

Further more we have seen plenty of episodes of DS9 that indicate GPL is a AQ/BQ standard monetary. In the DS9 episode "Who Mourns for Morn?" Morn had assisted in stealing 1000 bars of GPL from the Lissepian Central Bank. The fact that non Ferengi were trying to steal it from Morn kinda indicates GPL isn't a mere Ferengin thing.

When did I ever say it was a Ferengi thing?
It appears to be the standard of barter in the AQ, but that is not the same as a state currency, it be like you and me trading gold bars.

What evidence is that? The only evidence so far is something I PROVIDED. You haven't provided shit.

If you're going to resort to outright lying I won't even bother.

Gee, using MONEY, running a restaraunt WITH YOUR NAME ON IT, OWNING a BUSINESS, OWNING a SHIP. Call me stupid, but that seems like pretty clear evidence to me.

Only because you have twisted it to your convenience.

[Evil Jerk]

No free press? Then who were those people with the lights and cameras on NCC 1701-B in ST:VI? Looked like reporters to me. Oh wait -- I forgot. They were around in TNG. Thus, reporters no longer exist.

Must I point out that TOS was a capitalist society again?

No, but it would help if you could point out why they have an internal economy (credits) and can exchange that for external currencies (latinum, which presumably they purchase somehow),

Leap of logic, there is absolutley nothing that says that Fed currency can be exchanged for latinum.

why Data took was packing up personal property when personal property is verboten (presumably he would know all the laws and statutes regarding this subject and would naturally follow all of them)

Which amounted to his case of medals, Yar's hologram and a few books, in any case, when did I say there was a law against personal trinkets? Especially for a Starfleet officer?

but you still claim in spite of these facts that money and personal property don't exist.

I have never claimed that small items of personal property don't exist and you know it.

[Evil Jerk]

Where does it say they actually OWN and paid for the vineyard?

Ummm I dunno usually when people say "That's my car; This is my family vineyard" It usually means it's theirs.

If you rent a house, you live there a long while, you call it your home, you call it your house.
Do you own it?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Okay, how is "internal currency exchanged for external currency" a leap of logic? Are you suggesting they steal it from somewhere? Because, as MW has pointed out, they can't replicate it. Somebody out there exchanges it, unless you can provide a better explanation.

[Evil Jerk]

Okay, how is "internal currency exchanged for external currency" a leap of logic? Are you suggesting they steal it from somewhere? Because, as MW has pointed out, they can't replicate it. Somebody out there exchanges it, unless you can provide a better explanation.

I already did.
Logically, since only Starfleet officers and their relations have been seen using latinum (frontier colonies do not count, restrictions are lax their because of their very nature), and since black markets do thrive on DS9, they get their latinum through these black markets, this is something that has been done throughout history.

[Alyeska]

Okay, how is "internal currency exchanged for external currency" a leap of logic? Are you suggesting they steal it from somewhere? Because, as MW has pointed out, they can't replicate it. Somebody out there exchanges it, unless you can provide a better explanation.

I already did.
Logically, since only Starfleet officers and their relations have been seen using latinum (frontier colonies do not count, restrictions are lax their because of their very nature), and since black markets do thrive on DS9, they get their latinum through these black markets, this is something that has been done throughout history.

Your making a leap of logic without any direct supporting evidence.

[Alyeska]

Evil Jerk, I have repeatedly asked you to provide the evidence you claim supports your position. Your refusal to do so has been dully noted.

Concession Accepted

[His Divine Shadow]

Ho-ho-ho, you are all going to die debating this topic!

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Okay, granted we've only seen Starfleet personnel and their relations using GPL. But then again, we've only seen Starfleet personnel and their relations, as far as Terrans go.

And the black market angle is only an assumption. GPL may be a local currency unto itself, so naturally Terrans would have to exchange credits for the local currency. You still haven't addressed how Terrans would acquire the local currency if Federation credits can't be exchanged.

[Alyeska]

It's all references to the episodes and movies, what else is there?

PROVIDE THE FUCKING REFERNCES YOU FUCKING IDIOT!

Okay, which part of Starfleet officers and relations eluded you?

Don't be a complete fucking idiot. You claimed the ONLY example of Federation people using money was Starfleet Officers, I proved that wrong.

If you're going to resort to outright lying I won't even bother.

You fucking piece of shit! You have made wild ass claims up the fucking wall today and not provided a single piece of evidence! I have provided the ONLY evidence that even supports your position.

Only because you have twisted it to your convenience.

What compelte fucking moron are you? When someone says they own something, that means the fucking OWN IT!

[Evil Jerk]

Okay, how is "internal currency exchanged for external currency" a leap of logic? Are you suggesting they steal it from somewhere? Because, as MW has pointed out, they can't replicate it. Somebody out there exchanges it, unless you can provide a better explanation.

I already did.
Logically, since only Starfleet officers and their relations have been seen using latinum (frontier colonies do not count, restrictions are lax their because of their very nature), and since black markets do thrive on DS9, they get their latinum through these black markets, this is something that has been done throughout history.

Your making a leap of logic without any direct supporting evidence.

How? All the evidence that is there supports me.
- On DS9 only Starfleet humans use latinum.
- Latinum is never being exchanged to Fed credits or vice versa.
- There is only some spurious evidence that these Fed credits exist at all.
- DS9 is a station on the frontier of the Federation which more than likely has a demand for far away goods, not everything is replicable.
- Latinum is a primitive system of barter anyway, not a true currency

[Alyeska]

- On DS9 only Starfleet humans use latinum.

Prove that Jake Sisko is Starfleet.

- Latinum is never being exchanged to Fed credits or vice versa.

Which indicates native currencies. Can you provide any proof that ANY other planet has its own native currency?

- There is only some spurious evidence that these Fed credits exist at all.

In other words, there is evidence to a degree.

- DS9 is a station on the frontier of the Federation which more than likely has a demand for far away goods, not everything is replicable.

Then explain how with no money and no proof of blackmarket selling of Federation goods how Starfleet people can buy things on DS9?

- Latinum is a primitive system of barter anyway, not a true currency

Really. Ain't seen no one replicate Latinum. Maybe its value comes from its security in not being recreated.

[Evil Jerk]

Okay, granted we've only seen Starfleet personnel and their relations using GPL. But then again, we've only seen Starfleet personnel and their relations, as far as Terrans go.

And the black market angle is only an assumption. GPL may be a local currency unto itself, so naturally Terrans would have to exchange credits for the local currency. You still haven't addressed how Terrans would acquire the local currency if Federation credits can't be exchanged.

Yes I have.

PROVIDE THE FUCKING REFERNCES YOU FUCKING IDIOT!

I have. I have cited the examples of the ships which anyone who's ever watched Star Trek can remember.
You can't remember the fact that there is only the Fed News Service and nothing else, as shown in DS9, and proved by the fact that no independant press was there to say a damn thing about Leyton's coup?
Are the events of "The Neutral Zone" not specific enough for you?
What is it you want exactly?

Don't be a complete fucking idiot. You claimed the ONLY example of Federation people using money was Starfleet Officers, I proved that wrong.

You are a liar or you can't read, I specifically mentioned their relations a few pages back.

You fucking piece of shit! You have made wild ass claims up the fucking wall today and not provided a single piece of evidence! I have provided the ONLY evidence that even supports your position.

You provided the references from "The Neutral Zone"?
You gave me the the references to the ships?

What compelte fucking moron are you? When someone says they own something, that means the fucking OWN IT!

Funny that they didn't say that, and when I asked you to cite an example when somebody did, you say nothing.

[Vertigo1]

I suppose starfleet officers gambling in Quark's Bar isn't evidence that federation officers have money? Hell, in the pilot episode for Voyager, Quark wanted Kim to buy some fake jewelry that wasn't worth a few slips of latinum! When trying to find the Duras sisters, Riker paid quark the equivilent of 10 bars of gold pressed latinum for information. ON THE FUCKING BRIDGE OF A MILITARY VESSEL!

Lily's line stated that they simply aren't paid for doing their jobs, not that they don't have money. If they didn't have money, how the frell could they trade with other races? "Hi, I want some of those eggs. I don't have any money, so just put it on my tab." Please....

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Alyeska, come on... try to calm down. Remember, fear leads to anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to the 7-11.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, come on... try to calm down. Remember, fear leads to anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to the 7-11.

Hate leads me to bashing in the skull of a complete fucking idiot.

[Alyeska]

Hell, Mike encourages people to flame idiots who won't fucking listen!

[Evil Jerk]

Prove that Jake Sisko is Starfleet.

Oh for pete's sake, I have already included their relations several times, I'm trying to not be redundant.

Which indicates native currencies. Can you provide any proof that ANY other planet has its own native currency?

How does that indicate native currencies?

In other words, there is evidence to a degree.

In that I'm not willing to rule the possibility out.

Then explain how with no money and no proof of blackmarket selling of Federation goods how Starfleet people can buy things on DS9?

There is proof of a black market, Quark runs a black market, that these may except Fed goods is not a stretch of the imagination.

Really. Ain't seen no one replicate Latinum. Maybe its value comes from its security in not being recreated.

That much is obvious, but it's still the equivalent of trading gold bars.

[Vertigo1]

Could somebody forward a rational explanation of why of all things a stupid Connie was there?!?!

More evidence of the feeble state of Starfleet, that they had to pull 80-year old ships out of mothballs in order to scrounge up a 40-ship fleet. No wonder they got their asses kicked so badly.

Or maybe they sent anything that had weaponry to fight the borg out of desperation. Keep in mind that the main fleets are DAYS away from Earth. They could only get ~40 ships to arrive in time to engage the borg at Wolf 359. This is why the asked the Klingon Empire for help. The only thing this really proves is that the UFP is stupid for keeping a defense force away from a key planet. There are other ships there, just that they wouldn't have made it in time to make a difference.

[Alyeska]

STOP AVOIDING THE ISSUE.

Unless you can provide evidence to support your position, you are conceding the point.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Hell, Mike encourages people to flame idiots who won't fucking listen!

Well, here's a piece of info I picked up the hard way -- sometimes you're the only one who thinks it's the other guy being stupid.

Hey, I agree with you man -- but if others here don't, we at least want to keep this civil.

[Evil Jerk]

STOP AVOIDING THE ISSUE.

Unless you can provide evidence to support your position, you are conceding the point.

I am sick and tired of you demanding I provide evidence when I already have.

[Alyeska]

Hell, Mike encourages people to flame idiots who won't fucking listen!

Well, here's a piece of info I picked up the hard way -- sometimes you're the only one who thinks it's the other guy being stupid.

Hey, I agree with you man -- but if others here don't, we at least want to keep this civil.

Except only one side has provided any sort of evidence. Mike's entire line of reasoning hinges on a SINGLE example. There is more examples showing private property. Hell, if there was no private property, then that would mean there were no true freedoms. That would mean Data's sentience and being "alive" would not mater and there would not have been a trial when Starfleet wanted to disasemble him. Data would have been automatic property of the Federation because they found him. The fact that they had a trial and FAILED is a clear example there is private property and that the Federation can't dictate to people.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

There is proof of a black market, Quark runs a black market, that these may except Fed goods is not a stretch of the imagination.

Which Odo, as the constable, keeps under wraps. And which Sisko, as a "good (and privileged) citizen" in a communist state would have no part in. If it were a communist state, the Starfleet officers more than likely would have free run of the Promenade merchants and would pay for anything with anything. They wouldn't use GPL because it would be unnecessary to do so.

[Alyeska]

STOP AVOIDING THE ISSUE.

Unless you can provide evidence to support your position, you are conceding the point.

I am sick and tired of you demanding I provide evidence when I already have.

WHERE! Tell me the damned page! And "Episode whatever" is not evidence. You have to post the QUOTES from the episode.