Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Evil Jerk]

Hell, Mike encourages people to flame idiots who won't fucking listen!

Well, here's a piece of info I picked up the hard way -- sometimes you're the only one who thinks it's the other guy being stupid.

Hey, I agree with you man -- but if others here don't, we at least want to keep this civil.

Except only one side has provided any sort of evidence. Mike's entire line of reasoning hinges on a SINGLE example.

Your repeated insistence that I have provided one solitary example is simply not true.

There is more examples showing private property. Hell, if there was no private property, then that would mean there were no true freedoms. That would mean Data's sentience and being "alive" would not mater and there would not have been a trial when Starfleet wanted to disasemble him. Data would have been automatic property of the Federation because they found him. The fact that they had a trial and FAILED is a clear example there is private property and that the Federation can't dictate to people.

He WAS considered property of the Federation, you dolt!
The trail was not over private property, but SENTIENCE!!
If Data was not proved sentient, he would be declared property, PROPERTY OF THE FEDERATION.
And need I remind you that despite this trail, his daughter Lal was still considered property of the Federation to the extent that Haftel felt he could demand her.

[Evil Jerk]

Crap, I misspelled trial. Twice.

[E1701]

Cool down, man, remember that blood pressure...


I'm just not following this line of 'reasoning' at all... so everyone in Starfleet, the organization that in a communist government would be going NKVD on any civilian caught doing such, are *all* involved with the black market to such a degree that everyone straight on up to the Admiralty (at least 2 billion people, according to Jack in "Statistical Improbabilities) have sources of actual income, but no other civilian knows or cares?

Hell, it's so ingrained that Jake Sisko can start a business with Nog without drawing attention, and Worf has to warn Alexander against wasting money on foolish trinkets in "Firstborn" (TNG).

I think even Mulder would have to laugh off a conspiracy theory like that...

[Vertigo1]

Considering the number of expirmental and rare ship classes seen in BOBW, I have no problem with the idea that we saw a Consititution Variant, or even a Kitbash of ships.

Here is a set of pictures on every identified ship at Wolf-359.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... ll-ben.gif

As you can see there are several prototype designs as well as Galaxy variations.

Which only iindicates how desperate they were. I mean, no military with a chance in hell, would throw test beds and protoptypes into battle.

Think about this for a second. Just months earlier you heard of an enemy that would kick your ass without any trouble. Now here comes one of their ships that shrugged off a fleet without a single problem, and is heading for Earth. Tell me you aren't atleast going to TRY using experimental ships in the vain hope of one of them being able to do some damage? Your fleets are days, maybe even weeks away at best speeds. Are you going to let perfectly good ships just sit in drydocks when they might be able to slow down the cube and possibly allow civilians to escape?

Look at Babylon5: In the Beginning. At the Battle of the Line, every ship capable of fighting was sent up to hold back the Minbari in the vain hope that civilians could escape. Granted, this is an example from another show, but its just as valid. Why do you think they wasted those three fighters based on one of Jupiter's moons? They knew they wouldn't stand a chance against that cube, but sent them anyway to buy more time. This is the same reason Picard flew the Enterprise around to give Admiral Hanson more time to assemble a fleet at Wolf 359.

[Vertigo1]

Hell, Mike encourages people to flame idiots who won't fucking listen!

Well, here's a piece of info I picked up the hard way -- sometimes you're the only one who thinks it's the other guy being stupid.

Hey, I agree with you man -- but if others here don't, we at least want to keep this civil.

Except only one side has provided any sort of evidence. Mike's entire line of reasoning hinges on a SINGLE example. There is more examples showing private property. Hell, if there was no private property, then that would mean there were no true freedoms. That would mean Data's sentience and being "alive" would not mater and there would not have been a trial when Starfleet wanted to disasemble him. Data would have been automatic property of the Federation because they found him. The fact that they had a trial and FAILED is a clear example there is private property and that the Federation can't dictate to people.

Don't forget pets. Picard's fish in the ready room, Data's cat, etc. Going by a certain person's logic, they are property of the federation. If that is so, why does Data refer to Spot as his cat? Why did Picard once refer to the lionfish as his at one time?

[Darth Wong]

Don't forget pets. Picard's fish in the ready room, Data's cat, etc. Going by a certain person's logic, they are property of the federation. If that is so, why does Data refer to Spot as his cat? Why did Picard once refer to the lionfish as his at one time?

And you figure that possessive language forms disappeared in the Soviet Union under communism? You figure that when I refer to "my" computer at work, it's actually my property which I can buy and sell at will, rather than being company property which is designated to me?

I can't believe the pathetic evasions and weak-kneed distortions of both capitalism and communism that people are using in order to pretend that the Federation is not communist.

[Evil Jerk]

There is proof of a black market, Quark runs a black market, that these may except Fed goods is not a stretch of the imagination.

Which Odo, as the constable, keeps under wraps.

Oh please, Odo can't and doesn't keep track of everything, even Quark gets a few under his nose.

And which Sisko, as a "good (and privileged) citizen" in a communist state would have no part in.

And being privelidged also means he gets access to whatever he wants, including latinum.

If it were a communist state, the Starfleet officers more than likely would have free run of the Promenade merchants and would pay for anything with anything. They wouldn't use GPL because it would be unnecessary to do so.[/quote]

Not if it's unseemly to do so.

WHERE! Tell me the damned page! And "Episode whatever" is not evidence. You have to post the QUOTES from the episode.

Fine, since references are not enough..

"The Last Outpost"
LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ...

"The Neutral Zone"
RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

"Brothers"
SOONG: And what's so important about the past? People needed money, they got sick. Why tie yourself to that?

[Evil Jerk]

Cool down, man, remember that blood pressure...


I'm just not following this line of 'reasoning' at all... so everyone in Starfleet, the organization that in a communist government would be going NKVD on any civilian caught doing such, are *all* involved with the black market to such a degree that everyone straight on up to the Admiralty (at least 2 billion people, according to Jack in "Statistical Improbabilities) have sources of actual income, but no other civilian knows or cares?

Hell, it's so ingrained that Jake Sisko can start a business with Nog without drawing attention, and Worf has to warn Alexander against wasting money on foolish trinkets in "Firstborn" (TNG).

I think even Mulder would have to laugh off a conspiracy theory like that...

I am not saying they will go out and persecute anybody who uses money, just that INSIDE the Federation it is shunned because of their Communist, utopian ideals.

[E1701]

If they were communist, they would *have* to persecute anyone violating the letter of the law, even if just to keep up appearences. Otherwise, it would quickly collapse under it's own failures, and switch over to capitalism anyway, just as China is doing.

I still say the answer to their actual society lies in what Gene Roddenberry himself wrote in the TMP novelization. I'll pick up the novel next time I make a stop at the library, and quote you the relavent passages.

Labels like "communist" "capitalist" "socialist" and so forth merely detract from the goal of finding the SF television show equivalent of the truth. Kosh is a smart dude, better listen to him.

[Evil Jerk]

If they were communist, they would *have* to persecute anyone violating the letter of the law, even if just to keep up appearences. Otherwise, it would quickly collapse under it's own failures, and switch over to capitalism anyway, just as China is doing.

Not if they indoctrinate their citizens the way they do.
"You don't need money or material things, the Federation will make it all better"
That type of thing, and for all we know it might be inforced on the core worlds to some degree, since we only see any type of monetary exchange on the frontier and on starships.

I still say the answer to their actual society lies in what Gene Roddenberry himself wrote in the TMP novelization. I'll pick up the novel next time I make a stop at the library, and quote you the relavent passages.

Do you have a general idea of what he said?

Labels like "communist" "capitalist" "socialist" and so forth merely detract from the goal of finding the SF television show equivalent of the truth. Kosh is a smart dude, better listen to him.

Kosh from B5? No. He'd dead, I'm not, so I'm smarter.

[Darth Wong]

If they were communist, they would *have* to persecute anyone violating the letter of the law, even if just to keep up appearences. Otherwise, it would quickly collapse under it's own failures, and switch over to capitalism anyway, just as China is doing.

Under the Soviet Union, there was an ENORMOUS black market, which was pervasive and generally winked at by officials, who were casually partaking of its spoils through bribery. Stop pretending that a black market is somehow disproof of communism.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: all of the "disproofs" of Federation communism rest on "logic" that, if applied to the Soviet Union, would have classified it as capitalist.

[Alyeska]

If they were communist, they would *have* to persecute anyone violating the letter of the law, even if just to keep up appearences. Otherwise, it would quickly collapse under it's own failures, and switch over to capitalism anyway, just as China is doing.

Under the Soviet Union, there was an ENORMOUS black market, which was pervasive and generally winked at by officials, who were casually partaking of its spoils through bribery. Stop pretending that a black market is somehow disproof of communism.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: all of the "disproofs" of Federation communism rest on "logic" that, if applied to the Soviet Union, would have classified it as capitalist.

Indeed, and there is no direct evidence that states the Federation is comunist nor is any evidence that specifically states there is no private property or money.

I said it before and I will say it again. The Federation has socialism built into the system, but it is not strictly speaking socialist. It is a combination of both socialism and capitalism.

[Darth Wong]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: all of the "disproofs" of Federation communism rest on "logic" that, if applied to the Soviet Union, would have classified it as capitalist.

Indeed, and there is no direct evidence that states the Federation is comunist nor is any evidence that specifically states there is no private property or money.

Asking for proof of a negative, eh? I suppose the grossly errant logic of that demand does not occur to you?

[Ender]

He'd dead, I'm not, so I'm smarter.

Einstien is dead. Dark Star is not. Is Darkstar smarter then Einstien? By your logic he is.

[Evil Jerk]

He'd dead, I'm not, so I'm smarter.

Einstien is dead. Dark Star is not. Is Darkstar smarter then Einstien? By your logic he is.

D'oh!

[E1701]

But *where* is this almighty campaign of indoctrination? From the *very* limited times we've actually seen civilians on a core planet, it's been an awful lot like the modern US. No giant banners ala "Traitors Can't Hide", no bloated propoganda campaign during the war, no fancy military parades to flash their military might to the rest of the quadrant, so on and so forth. Even people like those genetically engineered loons had access to information that was hardly flattering - Jack estimated that the Dominion would win the war without Romulan intervention at a cost of 900 billion dead civilians to force the Federation to surrender. If that kind of info is public - publicized by freelance journalists like Jake Sisko - it's pretty clear that media censorship is closer to what the US is like now... the government keeps it's secrets, and hides it's military plans, but hell, from what we saw when the DS9 crew visited Earth, their press is even less inclined towards propogandistic efforts than the US was during WWII.

Instead, we see Picard's family vineyard (which produces some rather fine Chateau Picard, according to Q), where they still work their land as they always did - not even a hint of collectivisation. We see the apartments of two SF lieutenants, Harry Kim and Reg Barclay, both of which were decent sized, and well appointed (if a little messy in Barclay's case). We see some very typical scenes at the beach, right down to Barclay's nerdy nose-lotion . We see Beverly Crusher's family home, passed down through at least three generations. We see Joe Sisko's cajun restaurant, and the Sisko family house. We see local corner cafes, and Parisian bars, and we see Kirk's mountain cabin (which he even says he sold), and uncle's horse farm. We also know that publishing companies are still around, and still in the business of making profits, and we know that the Feds have no problem with a family owned corporation making a fortune on one of their own colony worlds mining a material that - given the wartime situation - they could seriously use more of.

That looks an *awful* lot like a slightly more pleasent version of the present day United States (which according to Kirk in "The Omega Glory", the UPF charter has a lot of influence from.

Surely, we'd have seen *some* shred of this hugely dark underbelly of misinformation and indoctrination.

Yet even when these guys are bouncing through the past within *very* capitalistic environments, they have no trouble acclimating at all.


Hmm... seems like some people are just reading into this what they want to, and rationalising the rest as best they can to fit with their chosen viewpoints...

[Darth Wong]

But *where* is this almighty campaign of indoctrination?

You were expecting something cartoonish, rather than the drab reality of, say, the Soviet Union?

[jegs2]

Well, here's a piece of info I picked up the hard way -- sometimes you're the only one who thinks it's the other guy being stupid.

Congratulations on the loss of your dubious title.

[Alyeska]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: all of the "disproofs" of Federation communism rest on "logic" that, if applied to the Soviet Union, would have classified it as capitalist.

Indeed, and there is no direct evidence that states the Federation is comunist nor is any evidence that specifically states there is no private property or money.

Asking for proof of a negative, eh? I suppose the grossly errant logic of that demand does not occur to you?

No, I am asking for proof of a positive. You are claiming that the Federation is Communist without any direct proof. I am saying that there is no evidence either way on the issue. Because the issue is muddled, it seems logical to assume that the answer lies somewhere in between. Given that there are repeated references to a monetary system of some sort, there is an economy to a degree, but at the same time the people of the Federation seem to have less of a materialistic attitude compared to the modern person. IMO they have a money of a sort that they use to get trinkets, but with there not being a materialistic drive people won't want to collect massive amounts of money to buy the things they want.

It is IMHO wrong to say there is no monetary system nor private property. Rather most people (or at least many on the main Human colony worlds) make just enough money to buy the few things they might desire.

[Evil Jerk]

But *where* is this almighty campaign of indoctrination? From the *very* limited times we've actually seen civilians on a core planet, it's been an awful lot like the modern US. No giant banners ala "Traitors Can't Hide", no bloated propoganda campaign during the war, no fancy military parades to flash their military might to the rest of the quadrant, so on and so forth.

I never said it was some sort of Stalinist Big Brother indoctrination going on, but SOME kind of indoctrination is there, their absolute faith in not needing material things which they regurgitate on command, and their absolute faith in the reliability of their technology (which is about as safe as ACME products endorsed by Wile E. Coyote) points to this.

Even people like those genetically engineered loons had access to information that was hardly flattering - Jack estimated that the Dominion would win the war without Romulan intervention at a cost of 900 billion dead civilians to force the Federation to surrender. If that kind of info is public - publicized by freelance journalists like Jake Sisko - it's pretty clear that media censorship is closer to what the US is like now... the government keeps it's secrets, and hides it's military plans, but hell, from what we saw when the DS9 crew visited Earth, their press is even less inclined towards propogandistic efforts than the US was during WWII.

I believe the crazies were given the info by Bashir, not by the press, though I may be wrong.
In any case, whether or not the Fed News Service censors news is irrelevant, the point is they can if they want to, because there's no other source.

[Alyeska]

You continue to evade Evil Jerk. Post the evidence you claim to have.

[Darth Wong]

No, I am asking for proof of a positive. You are claiming that the Federation is Communist without any direct proof.

Define what you would accept as proof of communism.

[Evil Jerk]

You continue to evade Evil Jerk. Post the evidence you claim to have.

You blithering idiot, you asked for quotes, I gave you some.

[Alyeska]

No, I am asking for proof of a positive. You are claiming that the Federation is Communist without any direct proof.

Define what you would accept as proof of communism.

A clear statement that private property does not exist. That private property does not exist. That the rights of the people are specifically less then the rights of the government. The fact that the people in uniform live relatively similar lives means nothing because people in uniform never make much money nor vast different sums of money.

Communism has all people being the same, no money, no religion, no private property, no privacy.

At the same time, there is no proof that the Federation is purely capitalist. As I said, the evidence indicates the Federation has socialistic tendacies, has a democracy of a sort, and has some sort of capitalist system. The evidence does not support any single system, but rather a combination of them.

[Alyeska]

You continue to evade Evil Jerk. Post the evidence you claim to have.

You blithering idiot, you asked for quotes, I gave you some.

And you stated this before, and I asked where, and you did not respond.