Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[Evil Jerk]

You continue to evade Evil Jerk. Post the evidence you claim to have.

You blithering idiot, you asked for quotes, I gave you some.

And you stated this before, and I asked where, and you did not respond.

What? Are direct quotes and the name of the episode they're from not enough?

[Alyeska]

You blithering idiot, you asked for quotes, I gave you some.

And you stated this before, and I asked where, and you did not respond.

What? Are direct quotes and the name of the episode they're from not enough?

You seem to fail to understand something. I asked you to provide the evidence, you claimed you did. I asked you WHERE and WHAT PAGE and you did not respond.

I am not going to wade through 19 pages for what you claim exists when won't even bother reposting it (which is easier then finding the page you posted them on).

[Patrick Degan]

But *where* is this almighty campaign of indoctrination?

You were expecting something cartoonish, rather than the drab reality of, say, the Soviet Union?

In "Violations", Counsellor Troi tells the Ullians that in the Federation, criminal tendencies are detected in childhood and "corrected". Federation propaganda clearly exists in the form of the racist misinformation directed at the Ferengi in "Encounter At FarPoint" and "The Last Outpost" (which also, according to Data's dialogue in that episode, points to a clear anticapitalist bias as well). Betazeds are used to scan subjects of a criminal investigation without warrant in "The Drumhead" and "The First Duty". And there is Dr. Pulaski's statement that Deanna Troi's purpose on the Enterprise was to keep humans from "deceiving themselves" in "The Icarus Factor". Clearly, there exists some mechanism of indoctrination and thought control/monitoring in the Federation system in the 24th century.

[Evil Jerk]

And you stated this before, and I asked where, and you did not respond.

What? Are direct quotes and the name of the episode they're from not enough?

You seem to fail to understand something. I asked you to provide the evidence, you claimed you did. I asked you WHERE and WHAT PAGE and you did not respond.

I am not going to wade through 19 pages for what you claim exists when won't even bother reposting it (which is easier then finding the page you posted them on).

Pages of what? Anyway..

"The Last Outpost"
LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ...

"The Neutral Zone"
RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

"Brothers"
SOONG: And what's so important about the past? People needed money, they got sick. Why tie yourself to that?

[Vapthorne]

Hey, in light of this debate, I propose this:

To the debaters who argue that the Federation is not a communist state, and the government does not control a majority of assest I challenge you to this. Try to produce a name list of at6 least FIVE major corporations mentioned in Star Trek that are:

-Owns/Controls some major asset.
-In Federation territory and/or ran by Federation citizens.
-NOT controlled by the Federation or Starfleet.
-(if possible) Explain what their products might be, or some type of competition they might have.

[Alyeska]

Hey, in light of this debate, I propose this:

To the debaters who argue that the Federation is not a communist state, and the government does not control a majority of assest I challenge you to this. Try to produce a name list of at6 least FIVE major corporations mentioned in Star Trek that are:

-Owns/Controls some major asset.
-In Federation territory and/or ran by Federation citizens.
-NOT controlled by the Federation or Starfleet.
-(if possible) Explain what their products might be, or some type of competition they might have.

That doesn't work to well. When your doing a show primarily about military people, you don't see the civilian side to often. Especially since we are watching them mostly on their ships. Might as well say that Space Above and Beyond was a communist state because they didn't list major corperations.

[Evil Jerk]

Hey, in light of this debate, I propose this:

To the debaters who argue that the Federation is not a communist state, and the government does not control a majority of assest I challenge you to this. Try to produce a name list of at6 least FIVE major corporations mentioned in Star Trek that are:

-Owns/Controls some major asset.
-In Federation territory and/or ran by Federation citizens.
-NOT controlled by the Federation or Starfleet.
-(if possible) Explain what their products might be, or some type of competition they might have.

That doesn't work to well. When your doing a show primarily about military people, you don't see the civilian side to often. Especially since we are watching them mostly on their ships. Might as well say that Space Above and Beyond was a communist state because they didn't list major corperations.

I am so sick of this copout!
Plus, Space: Above and Beyond is a bad example, since it in did in fact show major corporations.

[Alyeska]

Hey, in light of this debate, I propose this:

To the debaters who argue that the Federation is not a communist state, and the government does not control a majority of assest I challenge you to this. Try to produce a name list of at6 least FIVE major corporations mentioned in Star Trek that are:

-Owns/Controls some major asset.
-In Federation territory and/or ran by Federation citizens.
-NOT controlled by the Federation or Starfleet.
-(if possible) Explain what their products might be, or some type of competition they might have.

That doesn't work to well. When your doing a show primarily about military people, you don't see the civilian side to often. Especially since we are watching them mostly on their ships. Might as well say that Space Above and Beyond was a communist state because they didn't list major corperations.

I am so sick of this copout!
Plus, Space: Above and Beyond is a bad example, since it in did in fact show major corporations.

Copout? So your saying that seeing the military of a government is a fair showing of the civilian life? Does the movie Stargate show private property or money? Hell, does the SERIES Stargate show 5 major corperations? I only recall hearing ONE corporation in 5 and a half seasons of the show.

[Patrick Degan]

Hey, in light of this debate, I propose this:

To the debaters who argue that the Federation is not a communist state, and the government does not control a majority of assest I challenge you to this. Try to produce a name list of at6 least FIVE major corporations mentioned in Star Trek that are:

-Owns/Controls some major asset.
-In Federation territory and/or ran by Federation citizens.
-NOT controlled by the Federation or Starfleet.
-(if possible) Explain what their products might be, or some type of competition they might have.

That doesn't work to well. When your doing a show primarily about military people, you don't see the civilian side to often. Especially since we are watching them mostly on their ships. Might as well say that Space Above and Beyond was a communist state because they didn't list major corperations.

Both Space: Above And Beyond and Babylon 5 were able to show examples of cultural and economic practises in their societies without interfering with the primarily military/character-oriented plotlines and ones which gave clear evidence of free-market societies in place. There are no such examples to be found within TNG, except to a defunct mining concern in "Conspiracy", to point to a free-market system within the Federation. The episode "The Last Outpost" (which just aired this night on TNN), on the other hand, indicates that Federationists consider capitalism undesirable and primitive, and act against the principle of free trade.

[Vapthorne]

"That doesn't work to well. When your doing a show primarily about military people, you don't see the civilian side to often. Especially since we are watching them mostly on their ships. Might as well say that Space Above and Beyond was a communist state because they didn't list major corperations. "

Hrm, you mean in all the 1000+ hours of footage, ST doesn't really hint that this.

Despite being military focused, nothing is mentioned at all. Especially when you do see the civilian side on some occasions. Why hasn't Quark done any business with these major Federation corporations? Makes you think, huh?

[Alyeska]

"The Last Outpost"
LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ...

The same people who said women wearing clothes was evil. And let us not forget that later on Quark depended on the Federation for money. So this isn't a really good example.

"The Neutral Zone"
RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

If the company holding your money went bankrupt in the 400 year time span, then your money doesn't exist. Hell, Enron is proof that money you legally own can be skimmed and stolen by other people. And his office? The man DIED, I think that the company he worked for might have renovated since he was last there.

"Brothers"
SOONG: And what's so important about the past? People needed money, they got sick. Why tie yourself to that?

That quote doesn't really say anything.

Not a single one of your quotes specifically state there is no money or private property.

[Evil Jerk]

That doesn't work to well. When your doing a show primarily about military people, you don't see the civilian side to often. Especially since we are watching them mostly on their ships. Might as well say that Space Above and Beyond was a communist state because they didn't list major corperations.

I am so sick of this copout!
Plus, Space: Above and Beyond is a bad example, since it in did in fact show major corporations.

Copout? So your saying that seeing the military of a government is a fair showing of the civilian life? Does the movie Stargate show private property or money? Hell, does the SERIES Stargate show 5 major corperations? I only recall hearing ONE corporation in 5 and a half seasons of the show.

No, I'm saying that shows that are based around the military CAN show what's going on in the rest of their world.
If they want to show a capitalistc society, they'll do it!
Babylon 5 did it in 5 seasons, SAAB did it in one, but Trek somehow can't do it in 7 seasons of TNG, 7 of DS9 and 7 of VOY?

[Alyeska]

"That doesn't work to well. When your doing a show primarily about military people, you don't see the civilian side to often. Especially since we are watching them mostly on their ships. Might as well say that Space Above and Beyond was a communist state because they didn't list major corperations. "

Hrm, you mean in all the 1000+ hours of footage, ST doesn't really hint that this.

Despite being military focused, nothing is mentioned at all. Especially when you do see the civilian side on some occasions. Why hasn't Quark done any business with these major Federation corporations? Makes you think, huh?

Why hasn't Quark done business with any ALIEN Corporations? Why weren't there any corporations listed in TOS which everyone seems to admit had capitalism? Lack of mention does not mean they don't exist.

[Alyeska]

No, I'm saying that shows that are based around the military CAN show what's going on in the rest of their world.
If they want to show a capitalistc society, they'll do it!
Babylon 5 did it in 5 seasons, SAAB did it in one, but Trek somehow can't do it in 7 seasons of TNG, 7 of DS9 and 7 of VOY?

Voyager doesn't count because of where they were located. That leaves TNG.

Did you know that in TOS and the 6 TOS movies there was not a single mention of any Corporation? Seems the example is a faulty one.

[Evil Jerk]

"The Last Outpost"
LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ...

The same people who said women wearing clothes was evil.

To their society it is, this is irrelevant.

And let us not forget that later on Quark depended on the Federation for money. So this isn't a really good example.

That one bartender who regards himself as a loser in Ferengi terms likes the buisness that Starfleet brings is also irrelevant.

If the company holding your money went bankrupt in the 400 year time span, then your money doesn't exist. Hell, Enron is proof that money you legally own can be skimmed and stolen by other people. And his office? The man DIED, I think that the company he worked for might have renovated since he was last there.

But does Picard mention any of this? He seems bewildered by the very concepts the 20th century man speaks of.
And tell me, why is owning an office a material need that no longer exists, but not a restaurant?

That quote doesn't really say anything.

People needed money.
Now they don't need money.
Why? Because everything is handed to them by the state?
What is the point of money if you don't need it?

Not a single one of your quotes specifically state there is no money or private property.

You won't find specifics either way, but a lot of evidence points towards the fact that the UFP is communist.

[Vapthorne]

"The Last Outpost"
LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ...

The same people who said women wearing clothes was evil. And let us not forget that later on Quark depended on the Federation for money. So this isn't a really good example.

The fact that Fergini outlaws women clothing is not the issue. But, wouldn't the fact that Quark is dependent on the Federation for 'money' (or resources) point that the Feds disrupt trade to keep the outsider feeding on them. I might be wrong because I don't know exactly how Quark is ultimately dependent on them.

"The Neutral Zone"
RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

If the company holding your money went bankrupt in the 400 year time span, then your money doesn't exist. Hell, Enron is proof that money you legally own can be skimmed and stolen by other people. And his office? The man DIED, I think that the company he worked for might have renovated since he was last there.

Um, that's not what Picard meant. He stated that material _needs_ (keep this in mind) do not exsist, not anything specific on Ralph's assets.

"Brothers"
SOONG: And what's so important about the past? People needed money, they got sick. Why tie yourself to that?

That quote doesn't really say anything.[/quote]

Yes it does, it says the in the past, people _needed_ money. But the Federation, IAW this quote seem to not rely on money. Capitialist societys will always rely on income, hence why it's capitialist.

[Admiral Drason]

Hey, in light of this debate, I propose this:

To the debaters who argue that the Federation is not a communist state, and the government does not control a majority of assest I challenge you to this. Try to produce a name list of at6 least FIVE major corporations mentioned in Star Trek that are:

-Owns/Controls some major asset.
-In Federation territory and/or ran by Federation citizens.
-NOT controlled by the Federation or Starfleet.
-(if possible) Explain what their products might be, or some type of competition they might have.

That doesn't work to well. When your doing a show primarily about military people, you don't see the civilian side to often. Especially since we are watching them mostly on their ships. Might as well say that Space Above and Beyond was a communist state because they didn't list major corperations.

What the hell. You could ask any one in kabul about five US products and they could tell you lots about it even though the only Amercans theve met are American solidurs. Just think they could tell you about Coca Cola, marlbro, ect.

[Evil Jerk]

No, I'm saying that shows that are based around the military CAN show what's going on in the rest of their world.
If they want to show a capitalistc society, they'll do it!
Babylon 5 did it in 5 seasons, SAAB did it in one, but Trek somehow can't do it in 7 seasons of TNG, 7 of DS9 and 7 of VOY?

Voyager doesn't count because of where they were located. That leaves TNG.

Did you know that in TOS and the 6 TOS movies there was not a single mention of any Corporation? Seems the example is a faulty one.

I was not speaking solely of corporations, but of the general potrayal of their respective worlds.
In TOS, they talked of money and buying things numerous times inside the UFP, in TNG onwards they do not.

[Patrick Degan]

Why weren't there any corporations listed in TOS which everyone seems to admit had capitalism?

The fact that we saw commerical trading, independent businesses, and commerical mining is its evidence for free-market practises in operation in that version of the Federation which are lacking in the TNG Federation.

Lack of mention does not mean they don't exist.

Appeal to ignorance fallacy. You assume facts not in evidence.

[Alyeska]

So mentions of buying things in TOS means capitalism. Traders like Harry mud are marchants. Mentions of buying things in TNG and DS9 are "illegal" or "Edge society" while traders like Cassidy are "illegal and being supported through backdoor means"

Funny how the very same types of evidence in TNG and DS9 are disregarded yet when shown in TOS they are accepted.

And as to the "Tell 5 products to someone in Kabul". And how often do people really talk about that? How often do people refer to corporations in real day life? How often do you even see that in TV series? As I said, Stargate is a scifi series that portrays just as much private business and monetary systems as DS9 did yet I don't see people bitching about it being a communist state.

Funny how people will take certain evidence and say "communism" rather then look at the evidence from BOTH sides and admit the Federation has something in the middle. A communist state wouldn't have any private property and would disallow the ownership of outside currency AND punish it heavily. Have not seen any of that.

The Federation is not a true communist state, but is also is not a true capitalist state. It lies somewhere in the middle as a combination of the two. Trying to say anything besides that is just absurd and the height of arogance.

[Alyeska]

Why weren't there any corporations listed in TOS which everyone seems to admit had capitalism?

The fact that we saw commerical trading, independent businesses, and commerical mining is its evidence for free-market practises in operation in that version of the Federation which are lacking in the TNG Federation.

Yet the fact that we see commercial trading, independent businesses, and commercial minning in TNG and DS9 is evidence of communism?

[Evil Jerk]

So mentions of buying things in TOS means capitalism. Traders like Harry mud are marchants. Mentions of buying things in TNG and DS9 are "illegal" or "Edge society" while traders like Cassidy are "illegal and being supported through backdoor means"

Just one little comparison:
DS9: Cassidy Yates operates on the frontier, pays her crew in latinum, obviously not representative of the UFP
TOS: Cyrano Jones sells stuff on a 100% Federation station and asks for credits, not latinum, Uhura would've payed him too had he not given the tribble as a free sample .

Yet the fact that we see commercial trading, independent businesses, and commercial minning in TNG and DS9 is evidence of communism?

Oh, look who's making vague statements now, after demanding that I be absolutley specific.

[Vapthorne]

"Funny how people will take certain evidence and say "communism" rather then look at the evidence from BOTH sides and admit the Federation has something in the middle. A communist state wouldn't have any private property and would disallow the ownership of outside currency AND punish it heavily. Have not seen any of that."

Some of us have examined both sides of the picture, and much of the post-TNG Federation is still pretty communist. All of the private ever mentioned are either small cafes and/or personal trinkets. Unless I'm mistaken don't real world communist nations present these things as well. With currency, the only insistances I've seen outside currency is when done by high ranking officials, which they can overlook. How come Romulan Ale is comsumed on Starfleet Ships since it's illegal?

Come to think of it, I wonder why is Romulan Ale illegal?

"The Federation is not a true communist state, but is also is not a true capitalist state. It lies somewhere in the middle as a combination of the two. Trying to say anything besides that is just absurd and the height of arogance."

Every society is a balance between many models of government, the US, China, even sci-fi like the Empire or the Federation. But, the Federation is not a happy balance, there is much evidence that's geared towards communist and little reflects capitialism (and it's even mentions that's is not needed).

[E1701]

Actually, there's a huge listing of corporate construction contracts for the Enterprise refit in Mr. Scott's Guide... but that's beside the point...

Had to run there cause SG-1 was on, so sorry Evil Jerk, didn't finish you last question.

In the TMP novelization, which Roddenberry wrote himself, he reveals some very interesting aspects of the ST universe which simply didn't fit into the time span of the movie. But among those, he explains that despite popular opinion, Kirk and his human crew were *not* the proverbial "best and the brightest", because the true brains in the human species were among the so-called "New Humans". Kirk and his human crew were merely the best of the "Old Humans". Basically, if I recall his premise, New Humans are practically a subspecies of homo sapiens, who are the ones who have actually undergone the change in human nature - they have little care for materialism, and are communal creatures by nature, generally more sensitive, better diplomats and scientists, and so on. But they pay a price - they are not as capable fighters, and are ill suited to starship duty and the rigors of space-travel in general, and so starship crews are almost exclusively "Old Human".

Since it was Roddenberry who oversaw most of the first season of TNG on the basis of his own vision, I would hazard a guess that since a full century had passed since Kirk's day, that there *are* no more Old Humans, and that the crew we see in TNG are in fact New Humans in space, and poorly suited to the task. Hence their proclivity towards diplomacy at all costs, the holodeck (although honestly, who here wouldn't put one of those through its paces given the chance... (and dammit, you need an evil winking smily here!)), and their deliberate and innate dislike of materialism on a large scale.


The other alternative is that we should take their statements at face value, and allow for the possibility of an overall change in human nature in the context of the ST universe. If you can accept such a possibility in context, there is no problem... if you cannot, you will continue to pigeonhole their society no matter what anyone says, short of the Great Bird himself coming back to beat you over the head with a ghostly fist...

[Admiral Drason]

[quote="Vapthorne"]


Come to think of it, I wonder why is Romulan Ale illegal?


quote]

Its probly like Cuban cigars in th US. there Illegal because its made by an enemy.