Blaming Religion For the fault of Humanity. A Cop Out?

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Well, I wouldn't say than t I am a Religious person, but I do believe in God, and an afterlife, and I find the Bible to be a biased version on what God really meant. Besides all that I find it a huge Cop out that people blame Religions for some of the atrocities in the past. True Religions have sanctioned them, but I think they play a small (but very important) role in letting them happen. I think mostly it's Human nature that is the prominent characteristic that not only allows atrocities to occur but creates them in the first place. Look at slavery for example, or the massacre of the Native Americans, both were fueled by the Human fear of the unusual, which led to the superiority complex that the Europeans gradually felt. (plus the Technological gap) Religion only eventually came into the equation. (either forcing the conversion or justifying the atrocities that were commited to both of them) But mostly the atrocities that Humankind has commited on each other has mostly been done because of human nature, and if we as humans don't recognize that, we'll be just as short sighted as we've always been.
I'll open the Floor to other's, and respond.

[Durandal]

How is it a "cop out" to make the simple correlation between Islam's beliefs that suicidal attacks upon those deemed "infidels" (read: people who pray to a different invisible man from the one they pray to) will automatically earn them a spot in Heaven and suicidal attacks upon "infidels" by Muslims? If Islam purported the belief that such attacks would automatically send you to Hell, do you think Muslims would be carrying them out?

You're "human nature" excuse is the cop out. You never provide a definition of human nature, nor do you even provide evidence of the existence of one, overbearing nature for all humans. "Human nature" has become some catch-all term to explain everything bad that humans do, but no one has bothered providing a concrete definition.

The "human nature" claims are the ultimate form of racism. When people say that it's "black nature" to be predisposed toward violent activity or something similar, we know they're wrong, but when some philosopher ascribes violent activity to "human nature," everyone lauds and agrees with him. If such concepts like predispositions to certain activities do not work on such small scales like race, why the Hell would they work when applied to the entirety of humankind?

So, yes, religion does bear responsibility for these atrocities. Without the belief in an afterlife whose rewards were magnified by killing all those who disagree with you, these attacks wouldn't have happened. Now, you can argue about these people being "extremists" or whatever bullshit you want to try and excuse religion from blame, but the fact remains that the relevant passages are right there, in the Koran.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

I will not entertain any flaming, this is meant to be a discussion on Religion and it's effects on the world.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Well, I wouldn't say than t I am a Religious person, but I do believe in God, and an afterlife, and I find the Bible to be a biased version on what God really meant. Besides all that I find it a huge Cop out that people blame Religions for some of the atrocities in the past. True Religions have sanctioned them, but I think they play a small (but very important) role in letting them happen. I think mostly it's Human nature that is the prominent characteristic that not only allows atrocities to occur but creates them in the first place. Look at slavery for example, or the massacre of the Native Americans, both were fueled by the Human fear of the unusual, which led to the superiority complex that the Europeans gradually felt. (plus the Technological gap) Religion only eventually came into the equation. (either forcing the conversion or justifying the atrocities that were commited to both of them) But mostly the atrocities that Humankind has commited on each other has mostly been done because of human nature, and if we as humans don't recognize that, we'll be just as short sighted as we've always been.
I'll open the Floor to other's, and respond.

According to the Bible, the love of money is the root of all evil. According to some people I've met, religion is the root of all evil. I prefer to take a slightly different stance on it: human beings are the root of all evil. Yes, human beings have done some pretty fucked up, heinous shit to each other and their environment with one religion or another serving as their excuse, but it was human beings who were ultimately responsible. The minute I see God Himself come blazing down out of the sky and burn a few people at the stake for some trivial shit, I'll change my mind.

P.S. Your sig is misattributed. That was Crash Override's line.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

How is it a "cop out" to make the simple correlation between Islam's beliefs that suicidal attacks upon those deemed "infidels" (read: people who pray to a different invisible man from the one they pray to) will automatically earn them a spot in Heaven and suicidal attacks upon "infidels" by Muslims? If Islam purported the belief that such attacks would automatically send you to Hell, do you think Muslims would be carrying them out?

Yes and How many muslims do you know would sanction suicide attacks, you're just making a silly generalization about muslims. Plus is it really necessary to flame Me

You're "human nature" excuse is the cop out. You never provide a definition of human nature, nor do you even provide evidence of the existence of one, overbearing nature for all humans. "Human nature" has become some catch-all term to explain everything bad that humans do, but no one has bothered providing a concrete definition.

Explain how it is w/o flaming, humans have been fighting each other and commiting atrocities out of fear long before Religions started sactioning them It even happens in more recent times. Explain Hitler killing 11 million people, it wasn't because of some religoius sanction, it was more of a philisophical(sp) ideal that he had of the Aryan master race based partially on fear and anger toward the Jews. What about Stalin, He certainly was no Religious man, but he killed 20 million of his own people.

The "human nature" claims are the ultimate form of racism. When people say that it's "black nature" to be predisposed toward violent activity or something similar, we know they're wrong, but when some philosopher ascribes violent activity to "human nature," everyone lauds and agrees with him. If such concepts like predispositions to certain activities do not work on such small scales like race, why the Hell would they work when applied to the entirety of humankind?

When I mean Human nature I mean all of humanity I don't have any racial implications to my post it's plain and simple, if we as humans don't stop throwing blame around and see our shortsightedness then we are screwed. You have proved my point by saying that religion is 100% to blame for our calamity and our atrocities. That line of reasoning may well lead to another atrocity in on itself.

So, yes, religion does bear responsibility for these atrocities. Without the belief in an afterlife whose rewards were magnified by killing all those who disagree with you, these attacks wouldn't have happened. Now, you can argue about these people being "extremists" or whatever bullshit you want to try and excuse religion from blame, but the fact remains that the relevant passages are right there, in the Koran.

I'm not saying that it doesn't, I'm saying that we as a Human race we have to take a bigger responsibility for the atrocities committed. I've said that Religion does have an important part because it is molded by imperfect Humans (not to say that Religion is perfect) to what we want to believe and is set in stone. That why I say I am a religious person but I have big problem with listening to preist, the pope, or the Bible. Especially the Bible b/c it the word of God written Down and interpreted by a man who had his biases toward women, who was probably xenophobic, and some other archaic feelings and ideals they had thousands of years ago, I just believe what I think God is.

I'll Continue this correspondence, but I will NOT TOLERATE Flaming at all. My re: is a Bit incomplete, I have to go. So I'll respond more thoroughly at a later time.

[Durandal]

I'm not saying that it doesn't, I'm saying that we as a Human race we have to take a bigger responsibility for the atrocities committed.

The purpose of placing blame is to pin down the biggest responsible factor and then fix it. How are we going to "fix" the entire human race? We can't. We can, however, fix the religious problems by ensuring a proper and complete separation of church and state.

I've said that Religion does have an important part because it is molded by imperfect Humans (not to say that Religion is perfect) to what we want to believe and is set in stone.

Ad hominem. Humans can produce perfectly sound concepts, like mathematics and physics. Religion is flawed because it was written by people who sought to control the masses through scaring them into submission. The entirety of the Christian religion is a Big Brother scare tactic meant to frighten and control primitive people. It's amazing that it's still kicking in a world with science and technology.

[Yogi]

Humans have been killing and hurting each other just fine without religion. China and Japan have one of the most passive religious attitudes there are, and they commit massive acts of slaughter all the time.

Contrary to many people's beleif, humans control religion, not the other way around. For example, most intellegent Christians don't hate homosexuals, despite the fact thst the Bible says they're evil. They simply throw that line out since they don't like it. People will use religion as a justification for their actions, but most of the time they would have done that anyway.

Only certain isoated events, such as The Crusades and 9/11 can be blamed on religion. The rest can easiy be pinned on Greed, Selfishness, Xenophobia, a lack of Empathy etc.

[Wicked Pilot]

I first blame people for the bad things that people do. I second blame religion if it condones whatever bad thing was done, especially is the perpurtrator was initiated at a young age.

[Mr Bean]

Humans have been killing and hurting each other just fine without religion. China and Japan have one of the most passive religious attitudes there are, and they commit massive acts of slaughter all the time.

Truely? Name them


Lets list the attrocitys done because of religion and then you add in the ones not beacuse of Religion

The first and classic example is the Gencoide depicted in the Tora which we know some of which did occure and was 100% Religious Motviated, soon after we have the Crusades, The Inquesition, The imgration to America leading up to the American Revolution, WII, Various small acts of terror over the past 100 years incudling those that died in 9/11

Gee add them up and I'll think you find the over 200 Million people to die to just those conflicts are greater than must any war before there, I've left off all the little wars and the tribal wars


So off the top of my head that leaves, World War I, The Korean War, Vietnam, Hmm War of 1812? What am I forgeting...

[Darth Wong]

Humans have been killing and hurting each other just fine without religion. China and Japan have one of the most passive religious attitudes there are, and they commit massive acts of slaughter all the time.

Are you really so ignorant? What makes you think that Shinto is passive? And what massive acts of intolerant slaughter have Buddhists committed? I smell someone who just wants to ASSUME that other religions are just as bad as the Judeo-Christian-Muslim triumvirate of intolerance.

Contrary to many people's beleif, humans control religion, not the other way around.

Of course they control religion. Humans controlled Nazism too; that doesn't mean we can't criticize Nazism!

Only certain isoated events, such as The Crusades and 9/11 can be blamed on religion. The rest can easiy be pinned on Greed, Selfishness, Xenophobia, a lack of Empathy etc.

You forgot to mention Manifest Destiny, the Inquisitions, and Adolf Hitler. Sorry, but the Judeo-Christian-Muslim triumvirate of intolerance is responsible for a staggering number of deaths and atrocities throughout history. There is no point denying it, and it is a transparent evasion to say that it would still have happened without it; that's like saying the Holocaust would still have happened without the Nazis, because humans are mean.

[MKSheppard]

You forgot to mention Manifest Destiny...

Damn right, we crushed all opposition to our continental collossus......


Chief Joseph surrenders to the US Cavalry one day's ride from freedom
across the Border iN CANADA>

[Yogi]

And what massive acts of intolerant slaughter have Buddhists committed?

That's what I'd like to know.

You forgot to mention Manifest Destiny, the Inquisitions, and Adolf Hitler. Sorry, but the Judeo-Christian-Muslim triumvirate of intolerance is responsible for a staggering number of deaths and atrocities throughout history. There is no point denying it, and it is a transparent evasion to say that it would still have happened without it; that's like saying the Holocaust would still have happened without the Nazis, because humans are mean.

Manifest Destiny was to expand terrirory, Nazism was about German Power. The Inquisition was religious based.

The question in the topic was balming them on all of humanity's ills. That is certainly an exxageration. They cause lots of deaths, but not the vast majotiry.

As a side note, you mensioned in your web site that most of the early political leaders will pay lip service to various religions, because it's politically wise to do so. Therefore, simply saying "this was done in the will of God" doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. One would have to look in the larger context of the situation.

[Mr Bean]

Manfiest Desitanty was justfied BY religion, The German Power was from the GERMAN PEOPLE

You can't seriouly tell em Adof's beliefs in a master race and "cleansing the land" of everyone but the Master Race be a bit on the religious side?

[lgot]

I believe Religion is a trait of society. Not something apart. Thererefore I do not blame Religion for nothing, Crusades or anything. I blame the institution of Catholic Church who used religion as excuse to motivate the need for opening comercial routes to start the Crusades.
I can blame religious philosophy for stopping scientific work because my hope of more knowledge will cease ignorance and make the next society better than this one.
But blame religion ? No, I look for what societies they are and the traits of this society.

[Coyote]

Religion is used as a fig leaf or a justification of the barbaric acts committed by some humans. But not all humans are evil and barabaric; in this I disagree with the "Human Nature" concept and also with the "Humans are evil" argument. That is a sweeping damnation, and bloody unfair, I think.

Strongmen warlords and kings, popes, dictators, etc. have used religious sanction to justify their power grabs and wars. While I do not believe that "all people are evil" I also recognize that many people are afraid of neighboring tribes and seek a feeling of tribal security-- and thus, when one of these strongmen stands up and says that he has the religious authority to intepret God's will, and that that will is to murder others for glory, then religion has been used as a tool, a lever, to motivate bad actions.

That the Qur'an is intolerant is a given; it states that there are two righteous forms of "Jihad", the defensive Jihad and the offensive Jihad. Defensive is self-explanitory; if the body of Islamic believers is attacked it is the duty of Muslims to defend it. "Offensive" Jihad is taken when pagan infidels, or "Khufr" are exposed to the word of Islam but decide not to accept it (rejection of the Prophet). The Khufr are to be considered "apostates" and destroyed for this.

This was information I got from the Taliban web site (they had one! It was based in the Phillipenes, oddly enough I haven't been able to find it recently).

The Nazi expansion to the East was a continuation of long-standing Prusso-Germanic feelings of "manifest destiny" dating back to the end of the Crusades, when the militant Church Order of the Knights Teuton returned from the MidEast and had nothing to do so they pressed a new 'Crusade' into the Baltic territories, carving out the land that would become the Brandenburg-Prussian corridor. The locals were wiped out in an overt act of 'ethnic cleansing'.

And recently, members of the radical Kach faction in Israel were arrested for their actions in setting off bombs in Palestinian schools, again in an attempt to secure a 'manifest destiny' that the Israeli right clings to as foreign policy and is slowly cutting Israel's throat...

So, yeah, religion IS used as a gateway to evil acts. People rationalize and justify their actions with religion. Religion is not the ONLY rationlization for unspeakable violence, but it one that is easily and commonly used.

But humanity, and even using religious thought as a guide, have also done some kind and selfless acts as well, these are hardly headline-generating events though. Many Christians in France hid their Jewish neighbors from the Nazis because they believed in the virtues of their religion.

The verdict? People can be mean. People can be nasty. They might or might not use religion as a means to justify either.

[Coyote]

By the way...

People can also be very sweet, kind, selfless, and giving, too... and guess what? They may-- or may not-- use religion to justify that, too.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree with several points, religion is often a catalyst. I blame religion for causing atrocities just for that reason, but all-too frequently throughout history, it was some economic appeal to a particular group that caused them to commit atrocities and use their religion, or make a new one to justify it. In which case the "money is the root of all evil" adage comes to mind. Religion is probably a natural memetic outgrowth of human development. The more advanced our civilization becomes, the wider the "us" becomes in "us vs. them." We've gotten quite far from the tribes considering only each other in their moral equations, and butchering other neighboring tribes, but it will be some time before humanity reaches Type I civilization and is unified as one. Personally I think other sentient species likely come up with their own equivalent to religion to justify the kind of social survival of the fittest where the most strong and apt regimes and civilizations survive and the weak and impotent are weeded out and assimilated. I do blame religion for its careless sideaffects where it wasn't just used as an excuse for typical slaughter, such as retarding the sex education needed worldwide, at home and in the Third World, witch hunts, and the like.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

The purpose of placing blame is to pin down the biggest responsible factor and then fix it. How are we going to "fix" the entire human race? We can't. We can, however, fix the religious problems by ensuring a proper and complete separation of church and state.

Why Do we have to place Blame? It's only gonna create a backlash (or an atrocity). If we're lucky it might cause change without incident, but that's wishful thinking. Why can we just see our faults as human's and, take responsibility for our actions in the past, and stop throwing around blame, b/c doing that is just gonna cause more and more atrocities. We can't fix everything, and what my post is suggesting is not fixing the Human race but realizing that we have serious problems.

Ad hominem. Humans can produce perfectly sound concepts, like mathematics and physics. Religion is flawed because it was written by people who sought to control the masses through scaring them into submission. The entirety of the Christian religion is a Big Brother scare tactic meant to frighten and control primitive people. It's amazing that it's still kicking in a world with science and technology.

The reason why it became like that is Because it's human urge to control the masses. The fact of the matter is that humans have corrupted everything we have created, or what was handed to us. Not to say that all humans are bad, but it's pretty much evident that in the past, atrocities and corruption was very prevalent.

If we as humans Just continue throwing blame around, we may end up commiting more and more atrocities without truly knowing what the real problem is, and perhaps knowing is what will really save us.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

How is it a "cop out" to make the simple correlation between Islam's beliefs that suicidal attacks upon those deemed "infidels" (read: people who pray to a different invisible man from the one they pray to) will automatically earn them a spot in Heaven and suicidal attacks upon "infidels" by Muslims? If Islam purported the belief that such attacks would automatically send you to Hell, do you think Muslims would be carrying them out?

Oh and looping all Muslims to extremists is pretty silly. Do you know any Muslims? Looping them all together would be like looping me with the likes of Pat Robertson or Falwell ( ugh!). I loathe those people because they think they are correct when they spew hate and contradict the Bible constantly. Even Though I don't follow the Bible like a wacko, it's silly that in their rush to get themselves heard, they fail to realize that over and over and over.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Manfiest Desitanty was justfied BY religion, The German Power was from the GERMAN PEOPLE

True Manifest Destiny had a religious origin, but only after the fact that when Europeans first can they had their Superiority complex, b/c of their technological advancements over the Native Americans. Their disdain for them was imbedded b/c of the Human fear of the unusual. Plus they thought they lived like animals. What that shows is that Humans just modified and created new sects to christianity. Henry the VIII did this when He wanted a divorce. He created the Anglican Church to do so. Again My point is atrocities are caused by Humans, but Religion merely backs it up and condones it. (often b/c it is modified by man)

You can't seriouly tell em Adof's beliefs in a master race and "cleansing the land" of everyone but the Master Race be a bit on the religious side?

No that was a philosophy that he created. It may hint at religion, But Hitler wasn't a Religious Man, as far as I know. It was a philosophy of hate, plain and simple.

[salm]

you cant blame religion for the atrocities. religion was made and adjusted for commiting these atrocities. religion was made and adjusted by the leaders to control the masses. it would be like blaming a gun for a murder. oh, wait. the gun can be blamed partially. if the gun didnt exist the murder would be a lot harder, not impossible but a lot harder. so if religion hadnt been invented as a tool there would have been way less of these events.

[Darth Wong]

No that was a philosophy that he created. It may hint at religion, But Hitler wasn't a Religious Man, as far as I know. It was a philosophy of hate, plain and simple.

Read the relevant page on my Creationism site. Hitler was a Christian. He claimed that Jews and Blacks were evolved from apes, but Aryans were created in God's image.

[Darth Wong]

As a side note, you mensioned in your web site that most of the early political leaders will pay lip service to various religions, because it's politically wise to do so. Therefore, simply saying "this was done in the will of God" doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. One would have to look in the larger context of the situation.

Of course it's not true, since God is fictional. But we can say that regardless of the leaders' sincerity, it means that one could get people to commit or condone atrocities by appealing to their religious beliefs. Name one time in history that someone has gotten anyone to commit or condone atrocities by appealing to, say Buddhism or humanism.

[Durandal]

Why Do we have to place Blame?

So we can find the cause of the problem and attempt to fix it! Why else? You don't sit there on a jury in a murder trial muttering, "Why do we have to place blame?", do you?

It's only gonna create a backlash (or an atrocity).

So, we should do what, then? Continue to encourage irrational beliefs, many of which were created for the sole purpose of endorsing and justifying slaughter and death on extremely large scales?

If we're lucky it might cause change without incident, but that's wishful thinking. Why can we just see our faults as human's and, take responsibility for our actions in the past, and stop throwing around blame, b/c doing that is just gonna cause more and more atrocities.

You don't get it. People would sooner blame "human nature" than religious beliefs for massive acts of slaughter, already! What has that gotten us? Nothing. Religion is held up as some sort of symbol of all that is good in humanity, so no evil can come from it, even though monstrous amounts of evil can easily be traced back to religious beliefs!

We can't fix everything, and what my post is suggesting is not fixing the Human race but realizing that we have serious problems.

Religion is perhaps one of, if not the largest problem the human race has. Ask yourself this. If Osama bin Laden was a secular humanist atheist, would he have flown two planes into the Twin Towers?

The reason why it became like that is Because it's human urge to control the masses. The fact of the matter is that humans have corrupted everything we have created, or what was handed to us. Not to say that all humans are bad, but it's pretty much evident that in the past, atrocities and corruption was very prevalent.

Yes, religion was originally created as a means of explaining the unknown and controlling large groups of people, but we have science and secular governments for those two respective purposes, now. Religion is an utterly useless and unneeded aspect of society that has done much more harm than good. Why it continues to kick around is a complete mystery.

If we as humans Just continue throwing blame around, we may end up commiting more and more atrocities without truly knowing what the real problem is, and perhaps knowing is what will really save us.

Then, pray tell, what is the real problem? Some humans are evil? Well, no shit, Sherlock. You can't just snap your fingers and make everyone be a good person. But, you can identify and control the means by which these evil men can harm others. One of those mechanisms is -- get ready for this -- religion!

Oh and looping all Muslims to extremists is pretty silly.

Strawman. Specify where I accused all followers of Islam of ramming planes into buildings, rather than simply giving an accurate description of the people who commit such acts: Muslim terrorists.

Do you know any Muslims? Looping them all together would be like looping me with the likes of Pat Robertson or Falwell ( ugh!).

I think you mean "lumping."

I loathe those people because they think they are correct when they spew hate and contradict the Bible constantly. Even Though I don't follow the Bible like a wacko, it's silly that in their rush to get themselves heard, they fail to realize that over and over and over.

No, they simply read the Bible and interpret it in a straightforward manner. At least they're honest and admit that God just hates certain people. Most preachers try and pass God off as all-loving while trying to reconcile his massively murderous rampages on non-Jews in the Bible with that assumption that he is all-loving.

I'd suggest dropping the "The Bible is the 'Good Book'" garbage and actually reading it for yourself. It's moral value has been grossly exaggerated.

[lgot]

Well
You can not blame the September 11 in Religion only, The major cause of that attack was USA's International politics and mistakes...30, 40 years of that.

But then, there is a difference between a Religious Institution and a gun. The Religious institution is something that act and have moral and beliefs that she looks to protect, claim and make know. That allows anyone to charge those Institutions with responsability.
But to me, again, those institutions have origem and develop inside societies, they are cultural trait of those societies, a indication of what those societies think and how they act. They use and give interpretations to "texts", myths and legends as they wish. If you blame a religion, you should blame that society, as it is not possible to put both apart.
So, I only see, that when people blame so much the Western Catholic Church as way to input responsability to most of Western Europeans societies from the last centuries.
Funny to think that, since some topics ago, there was argument about the good of those civilization to the natives of american and africa and for the oriental people...