ST vs SW split

[The Kernel]

Is it?

If they could drop a ship on the other side of Endor with their own vessel, and they use ground vehicles to make to the shield, why didn't they?

Assuming that Endor is NOT shielded, I've already answered much of this earlier in the thread, but here is the short version of it. With a shielded perimeter around the base, the Rebels would not be able to use repulsorlift vehicles to get through (remember, shields prevent penetration by repulsorlift devices) and they would be left trudging through on foot. Whether or not an armed commando team can penetrate a theatre shield is unknown, but even if they could, the Empire would likely be assumed to monitor the edges of the shield. From the Rebels perspective, it might have made more sense to simply slip inside with a captured ship since it would be unlikely from their perspective for the Empire to be concerned about security inside the shield.

I mean they never said how long the Emperor was going to stay there. To assume he was going to leave that evening and they must do the attack that day is the same as assuming the shield encompass a small portion of Endor.

I think it's more a question of lessening the factors involved in the operation. If the strike team had to penetrate the shield, that is one more variable, and since they couldn't have contacted the fleet without being made, they had to stick to a very stict timeline (not just for the escape of the Emperor, but also for the possibility of Imperial reinforcements).

Also before we go into the Alliance is touchy feely, nowhere indicated that they even knew of the Ewok's existence, so what would prevent them from using that fleet to roast the shield generator?

The Ewoks must have been known well enough if Grand Admiral Thrawn (who wasn't even AT Endor) knew of the Ewoks by name and refered to them in an offhand remark in regards to Endor in Dark Force Rising.

[Ghost Rider]

Is it?

If they could drop a ship on the other side of Endor with their own vessel, and they use ground vehicles to make to the shield, why didn't they?

Assuming that Endor is NOT shielded, I've already answered much of this earlier in the thread, but here is the short version of it. With a shielded perimeter around the base, the Rebels would not be able to use repulsorlift vehicles to get through (remember, shields prevent penetration by repulsorlift devices) and they would be left trudging through on foot. Whether or not an armed commando team can penetrate a theatre shield is unknown, but even if they could, the Empire would likely be assumed to monitor the edges of the shield. From the Rebels perspective, it might have made more sense to simply slip inside with a captured ship since it would be unlikely from their perspective for the Empire to be concerned about security inside the shield.

This assumes they ONLY have repulsor life vehicles. SW has shown wheeled and legged ones that have't shown a problem entering a shielded area.

Plus if they were investigating the perimeter, why have a bulk at the shield and yet never any mention of these bases in any sort of literature at all be it WEG, WOTC, or anything.

I mean they never said how long the Emperor was going to stay there. To assume he was going to leave that evening and they must do the attack that day is the same as assuming the shield encompass a small portion of Endor.

I think it's more a question of lessening the factors involved in the operation. If the strike team had to penetrate the shield, that is one more variable, and since they couldn't have contacted the fleet without being made, they had to stick to a very stict timeline (not just for the escape of the Emperor, but also for the possibility of Imperial reinforcements).

How so?...the Alliance didn't know they were found out. They were on the time table because of the Emperor sitting pretty, for all they cared Sullust was completely unknown by the Empire, and in fact they mention the Empire creating a web to hunt them down and search them out, thus lessening any chance of a major build up in any particular sector.

Also before we go into the Alliance is touchy feely, nowhere indicated that they even knew of the Ewok's existence, so what would prevent them from using that fleet to roast the shield generator?

The Ewoks must have been known well enough if Grand Admiral Thrawn (who wasn't even AT Endor) knew of the Ewoks by name and refered to them in an offhand remark in regards to Endor in Dark Force Rising.

That's proof given that canon shows that Luke, Leia, 3PO and Han were completely surprised to see them.

Thrwawn may have found out through his own means, but doesn't say that suddenly the Alliance knew because a Grand Admirial happened to know.

[Darth Wong]

I would suggest (as I already did) that the Endor shield was NOT a full planetary shield system (one capable of withstanding a siege by a large fleet for weeks) but an anti-bombardment shield that could encompass the entire world and the Death Star II, yet it would not have nearly the power of a standard planetary shield.

Then why can't the Rebel fleet simply blast its way through?

This is the only solution that truly fits the evidence we have, unless we want to suggest that in a Universe with a static technology base, the Empire was somehow able to crank out a shield that was not only more effective than the best planetary shield systems, but significantly smaller too.

Or we could admit that the author of the book in question was downsizing Imperial technology. Not exactly unusual for this particular author, who thought that a couple of hundred 600m long turd-shaped starships could threaten a pan-galactic government.

[Crown]

I just re-watched the scene(s) again ... not special edition unfortunately, but anyway here's the brekdown;

Home One briefing room; we see no shield around Endor at all. All we see is the projection from Endor to the Death Star.

Cut to; shuttle Tyderian approaching DS;

Executor com/scan: We have you on our screens now, identify your self.

Han: Shuttly Tyderian requesting de-activation of the deflector shield.

<interplay between Luke freaking out, Han telling Chewie to fly casual, Vader asking Admiral Piet where that shuttle is going>

Han: Parts and technical crew for the forest Moon

Executor com/scan: Follow your current flight plan, deactivation will commence immediately.



Notes; if there was a tactical shield on Endor, it could not have been more than 100km in diameter from inspection of the hologram in Home One. Meaning looking at the 'original' diameter of the shield being beemed up, in relation to the size of the Death Star.

However if this is true, then why bother with trying to sneak a team to sabotage it? A tactical shield of such size might be good enough to stop energy based weapons, but can it stop shock waves from sizemick charges? Mass forest fires? Shock waves of nuclear airbursts?

Maybe the latter two, but I doubt the first one.


EDIT :: I will like to add that this is the original RotJ, and I for some strange reason remember the SE RotJ showing a shield around Endor, much like its novelisation suggested.

[wautd]

So why didnt they just put a shield on the DSII itself?

[Ghost Rider]

So why didnt they just put a shield on the DSII itself?

Power drain issue perhaps.

[The Kernel]

Then why can't the Rebel fleet simply blast its way through?

Because it's an anti-bombarment shield. Consider, the shield at Alderaan was strong enough to absord the Death Star blast for a split-second, and we've seen EU evidence of the shields holding off against massive fleets (which the Rebels didn't have) for weeks at a time.

The Imperials didn't need anything like that at Endor. Remeber, this wasn't the final station for the Death Star II, it was just there while under construction. So all they really needed was a shield that could act as a deterrent to a sneak attack, since Endor is still in Imperial space and could have a sector fleet there in a relatively short amount of time. This fits with why the Rebels needed to launch their attack on the DS II simultaneously with the collapse of the shield since they couldn't hang around very long before the Imperials sent help.

So the Endor shield might not be able to withstand weeks of bombardment by hundreds of ships, but it could probably handle a few minutes or even hours of bombardment by a smaller fleet of Rebel ships, which would give the Imperials time to send for reinforcements.

Or we could admit that the author of the book in question was downsizing Imperial technology. Not exactly unusual for this particular author, who thought that a couple of hundred 600m long turd-shaped starships could threaten a pan-galactic government.

I really hate to throw out EU data unless absolutely necessary. It just feels sloppy if we can't find a theory that works with both canon and EU.

[wautd]

So why didnt they just put a shield on the DSII itself?

Power drain issue perhaps.

yes... but if it has the power to shoot the superlaser (at short intervals compared to the DSI) i dont think the power input to keep the shield online would be negligable. I think it will only be an issue when the DS actually fires (and thus disabling the shield for a while)

[Crown]

Or we could admit that the author of the book in question was downsizing Imperial technology. Not exactly unusual for this particular author, who thought that a couple of hundred 600m long turd-shaped starships could threaten a pan-galactic government.

I really hate to throw out EU data unless absolutely necessary. It just feels sloppy if we can't find a theory that works with both canon and EU.

novelisation > EU

[Crown]

So why didnt they just put a shield on the DSII itself?

Power drain issue perhaps.

yes... but if it has the power to shoot the superlaser (at short intervals compared to the DSI) i dont think the power input to keep the shield online would be negligable. I think it will only be an issue when the DS actually fires (and thus disabling the shield for a while)

It was under construction you realise, the only thing that appeared to be working was its main laser anyway, did you see any turbo lasers or cannons (anti fighter ones) firing at all? I didn't.

[The Kernel]

This assumes they ONLY have repulsor life vehicles. SW has shown wheeled and legged ones that have't shown a problem entering a shielded area.

Wheeled and Legged vehicles aren't exactly very inconspicuous are they?

Plus if they were investigating the perimeter, why have a bulk at the shield and yet never any mention of these bases in any sort of literature at all be it WEG, WOTC, or anything.

Actually, I was just thinking that if the shield extended to the ground, it could act as its own security system by showing stress on the shield if anyone tried to get through it (there's some EU precedent for this).

How so?...the Alliance didn't know they were found out. They were on the time table because of the Emperor sitting pretty, for all they cared Sullust was completely unknown by the Empire, and in fact they mention the Empire creating a web to hunt them down and search them out, thus lessening any chance of a major build up in any particular sector.

If the shield was destroyed early, Imperial reinforcements would have been swarming all over the area by the time the Rebel fleet showed up. They would have no way of telling WHEN the shield had been destroyed.

That's proof given that canon shows that Luke, Leia, 3PO and Han were completely surprised to see them.

Thrwawn may have found out through his own means, but doesn't say that suddenly the Alliance knew because a Grand Admirial happened to know.

Even if they didn't, it might look bad for a group as high-minded as the Rebels who were engaged in a campaign to win the hearts and minds of the Galaxy to melt the crust of a habitable world if they didn't know what kind of life might be there. After all, the fuss over the Camass issue had some pretty severe fallout.

Note that this is perhaps the biggest problem with the no shield theory, and with that in mind, I much prefer the weaker, shielded Endor theory.

[The Kernel]

Or we could admit that the author of the book in question was downsizing Imperial technology. Not exactly unusual for this particular author, who thought that a couple of hundred 600m long turd-shaped starships could threaten a pan-galactic government.

I really hate to throw out EU data unless absolutely necessary. It just feels sloppy if we can't find a theory that works with both canon and EU.

novelisation > EU

Crown, could you PLEASE read my post before you comment? My theory in that post has nothing in it that overrides Canon or EU.

[wautd]

Power drain issue perhaps.

yes... but if it has the power to shoot the superlaser (at short intervals compared to the DSI) i dont think the power input to keep the shield online would be negligable. I think it will only be an issue when the DS actually fires (and thus disabling the shield for a while)

It was under construction you realise, the only thing that appeared to be working was its main laser anyway, did you see any turbo lasers or cannons (anti fighter ones) firing at all? I didn't.

Well im pretty sure there were TL towers firing when the rebel fighters enter the hole to reach the cure.
But its been a while i saw the movie so i can be wrong.

It was under construction you realise

Do you mean there wasnt enough time to build it? Because they might as well let the team that built the shield on Endor do the job on the DS instead[/url]

[Ghost Rider]

This assumes they ONLY have repulsor life vehicles. SW has shown wheeled and legged ones that have't shown a problem entering a shielded area.

Wheeled and Legged vehicles aren't exactly very inconspicuous are they?

This isn't about stealth if they have time table.

This is about why couldn't they enter...are repulsor lifts any more stealthly to SW sensors somehow?

Plus if they were investigating the perimeter, why have a bulk at the shield and yet never any mention of these bases in any sort of literature at all be it WEG, WOTC, or anything.

Actually, I was just thinking that if the shield extended to the ground, it could act as its own security system by showing stress on the shield if anyone tried to get through it (there's some EU precedent for this).

EU precendent but never once mention in concert with the RoTJ scenario.

How so?...the Alliance didn't know they were found out. They were on the time table because of the Emperor sitting pretty, for all they cared Sullust was completely unknown by the Empire, and in fact they mention the Empire creating a web to hunt them down and search them out, thus lessening any chance of a major build up in any particular sector.

If the shield was destroyed early, Imperial reinforcements would have been swarming all over the area by the time the Rebel fleet showed up. They would have no way of telling WHEN the shield had been destroyed.

Assumption, given that they never once made a call for help and that's saying the rebels have no possibilty of stopping a fleeing vessel.

That's proof given that canon shows that Luke, Leia, 3PO and Han were completely surprised to see them.

Thrwawn may have found out through his own means, but doesn't say that suddenly the Alliance knew because a Grand Admirial happened to know.

Even if they didn't, it might look bad for a group as high-minded as the Rebels who were engaged in a campaign to win the hearts and minds of the Galaxy to melt the crust of a habitable world if they didn't know what kind of life might be there. After all, the fuss over the Camass issue had some pretty severe fallout.

Note that this is perhaps the biggest problem with the no shield theory, and with that in mind, I much prefer the weaker, shielded Endor theory.

Camaas was BDZ, destroying the Endor shield would've hardly been a BDZ unless you want to say the Alliance had to destroy all of Endor to get to one specific area.

[Crown]

Crown, could you PLEASE read my post before you comment? My theory in that post has nothing in it that overrides Canon or EU.

Mike asked you why you were arguing why you arguing so vehemently against the planetary shield evidence, and you responded by 'not wanting to throw away EU data unless absolutely necessar'. Here's a tip; when the SE novelisation explicitly states that there was a planet wide shield at Endor, you need to trump that with movie evidence.

The EU inconsistancies can be reasoned away with simple logic; flexibility in being able to deactivate certain areas of planetary shield while maintaing others; redundancy; cost effectiveness; one was temporary, the other was permanent; etc.

Just because Endor had one projector for a planetary shield != all other planetary shields have to be one singular projector either!

[The Kernel]

It was under construction you realise, the only thing that appeared to be working was its main laser anyway, did you see any turbo lasers or cannons (anti fighter ones) firing at all? I didn't.

Actually, there were a fair number of surface guns firing during the scene where Lando takes the MF inside the hole in the DSII's surface.

[Ghost Rider]

yes... but if it has the power to shoot the superlaser (at short intervals compared to the DSI) i dont think the power input to keep the shield online would be negligable. I think it will only be an issue when the DS actually fires (and thus disabling the shield for a while)

It was under construction you realise, the only thing that appeared to be working was its main laser anyway, did you see any turbo lasers or cannons (anti fighter ones) firing at all? I didn't.

Well im pretty sure there were TL towers firing when the rebel fighters enter the hole to reach the cure.
But its been a while i saw the movie so i can be wrong.

They had an operational superlaser, and the Emperor actually says the DS2 is fully functional, remember?

It was under construction you realise

Do you mean there wasnt enough time to build it? Because they might as well let the team that built the shield on Endor do the job on the DS instead

No, but you're assuming that a single firing Superlaser is more draining then a shield meant to repel ships that can do thousands of GT damage in a matter of minutes

You care to back that assumption up?

[Crown]

It was under construction you realise, the only thing that appeared to be working was its main laser anyway, did you see any turbo lasers or cannons (anti fighter ones) firing at all? I didn't.

Well im pretty sure there were TL towers firing when the rebel fighters enter the hole to reach the cure.
But its been a while i saw the movie so i can be wrong.

I haven't seen it in a while and I can't remember.

It was under construction you realise

Do you mean there wasnt enough time to build it? Because they might as well let the team that built the shield on Endor do the job on the DS instead[/url]

There can be plentiful reasons why the shield wasn't installed at the time; where do you install shield generators? Deep inside the DS, or closer to the surface?

You do realise that construction and manufacturing is a little more complex than using leggo right? We don't know in what order the systems need to be installed.

[The Kernel]

Mike asked you why you were arguing why you arguing so vehemently against the planetary shield evidence, and you responded by 'not wanting to throw away EU data unless absolutely necessar'. Here's a tip; when the SE novelisation explicitly states that there was a planet wide shield at Endor, you need to trump that with movie evidence.

Crown, READ MY POST PLEASE! I was arguing for a full, planet covering shield that is weaker than a normal planetary shield like we saw at Alderaan and we see in the EU. I am not really arguing for the no-shield theory anymore except for throwing a few possibilities around with Ghost Rider (which was a seperate post).

The EU inconsistancies can be reasoned away with simple logic; flexibility in being able to deactivate certain areas of planetary shield while maintaing others; redundancy; cost effectiveness; one was temporary, the other was permanent; etc.

Or a simple lack of necessity for a shield strong enough to withstand a siege.

ust because Endor had one projector for a planetary shield != all other planetary shields have to be one singular projector either!

If you'll read through my post you'll notice that I'm perfectly well aware of this.

[The Kernel]

GH, I agree enough with your points to pretty much throw out the no-shield theory at this point btw. Conceeded on all counts there.

[Crown]

Crown, READ MY POST PLEASE! I was arguing for a full, planet covering shield that is weaker than a normal planetary shield like we saw at Alderaan and we see in the EU.

You mean this part where I could have saved myself the embarisment?

Well, even if we assume that all of Endor was shielded, it must be something drastically different from a standard planetary shield generator. Even if you throw out Ukio as being a crappy setup, Bothawui was described as having one of the best planetary defense systems, yet the loss of a single generator around Devan'stram (sp) was enough to blow a hole in the entire network large enough to shoot through, and keep it open for several hours with the remaining generators unable to pick up the slack.

I would suggest (as I already did) that the Endor shield was NOT a full planetary shield system (one capable of withstanding a siege by a large fleet for weeks) but an anti-bombardment shield that could encompass the entire world and the Death Star II, yet it would not have nearly the power of a standard planetary shield. This is the only solution that truly fits the evidence we have, unless we want to suggest that in a Universe with a static technology base, the Empire was somehow able to crank out a shield that was not only more effective than the best planetary shield systems, but significantly smaller too.

Yeah that would have helped ... bugger. Sorry man, my eyes just kind of slipped over that part.

[Ghost Rider]

GH, I agree enough with your points to pretty much throw out the no-shield theory at this point btw. Conceeded on all counts there.

No prob...besides it's fun debating...and GR man.

Twice, TWICE...my intials get fubared

Not a WORD STEF...NOT A W.O.R.D

Hehe~Crown

[Crown]

It was under construction you realise, the only thing that appeared to be working was its main laser anyway, did you see any turbo lasers or cannons (anti fighter ones) firing at all? I didn't.

Actually, there were a fair number of surface guns firing during the scene where Lando takes the MF inside the hole in the DSII's surface.

Yeah ... you know what? It's been a while since I saw this movie, I think I am going to go and put it on and watch it now.

[The Kernel]

Bah, don't worry about it. I owed you a little embarrasment anyways after yesterday.

[Crown]

Bah, don't worry about it. I owed you a little embarrasment anyways after yesterday.

*writes The Kernel down on the list for the next time I get Admin powers*



Still really pissed off no one can verify the SE RotJ, and if they showed a shield around Endor, because I swear I remember it.