A Question On the Size of the Imperial Fleet

[Aaron2]

You're also assuming the Imperial negotiators have the same reputation as do Jedi. Remember the Jedi have been around for millenia and that's got to earn you a reputation.

It's called the moral highground, the Jedi had it and the Imps didn't.

The Imps don't need the moral highground. They have Palpatine, the man who single-handedly plotted the downfall of the Old Republic and Vader, the most powerful Jedi ever. That's worth a little more than the Jedi's Rep. Besides, if the Jedi's were so well thought of, how come they are all but forgotten in less than a generation?

And both the Emperor and Vader were trying to hide their presence, calling in a huge fleet would anounce the fact or at least make the Rebels very wary.

Neither Vader nor Palpatine were hiding their presence. The whole point of the attack was that the Emperor was there. Considering the speed of hyperdrive, that could be Coruscant's home fleet (which would explain why Palpatine refered to is as "our sector fleet"). They could fly to Endor in a few hours. The Emperor knew the timing of the Rebel attack to within minutes. Since the attack was composed of every single Rebel ship, there was no need to even leave behind anything but a token security force.

Of course the good guys won. But the fact that the Empire fell does not necessarily follow.

There have been plenty of riots in the US against the government that have caused equally great proportional damage. Yet the US government fell to any of them. It's rioting but nothing a little heavy armor and stormies won't disperse.

Ok, please tell me when there were massive riots in multiple cities, complete with the toppling of huge national monuments and the parading around of dead US servicemen. Unless your from a different reality, it never happened.


"The Empire is Dead
Long live the Alliance"


Aaron

[Smalleyjedi]

what you are all forgetting is that the Empire DID fall......for maybe a few hours of chaos til the moffs and admirals began taking military control over everything they could get, quelling these celebrations, and fighting for supremecy. After a few months things were pretty much in order with a new central government having control over much of the old Empire, some warlords claiming alliegence to it, and some already on their own. FRom this point the rebels picked the apart due to their infighting, and a series of ineffectual leaders.

[Ender]

This assumes that the empire possesses no negotiators or ambassadors. Not a very fair assertion. Certainly an Imperial negotiator with two ISD to back up what he says is at least as effective as two Jedi who have no means of backing up what they say (short of murder by lightsaber). How can Jedi stop a war? Are they running around using their mind trick on everybody?

The Republic had ambassadors as well. Yet they still neeeded the Jedi. Look at the situations the Jedi are sent into. Qui-Gon and Obi-wan have to turn back the Trade Federation. Yaddle and her master are to stop a warlord. Mace Windu was sent to stop a civil war. A group of them are sent to stave off the Stark Hyperspace wars. All of them are situations that a normal ambassador could not have survived, much less mediated.

Ok 1) Vader was there. 2) The Emperor was there. 3) The fleet was assembled to crush the Rebellion in one swift stroke. These three conditions are certainly not typical so why should the fleet be?

Vader and the Emperor where there to deal with Luke, and the Death Star was to kill the fleet, not the Star Destroyers. Or are you engaging in your selective evidence again?

There is no evidence that that was not the standard sector fleet.

Here's where the burden of proof is in your court. ROTJ showed massive celebrations on all (at least all known) planets within -hours- of the emperor's death. Celebrations that include knocking over gigantic statues and tossing about slain stormtroopers. Why should I have to prove that this celebration was short lived? Lucas put it there for a reason. To show that the good guys won.

No, here's where the burden of proof comes in. I have the entire EU to back me, the burden of proof is on you to show that none of that happened. So disprove all of the EU.

[Ender]

The Imps don't need the moral highground. They have Palpatine, the man who single-handedly plotted the downfall of the Old Republic and Vader, the most powerful Jedi ever. That's worth a little more than the Jedi's Rep. Besides, if the Jedi's were so well thought of, how come they are all but forgotten in less than a generation?

Because they had their reputation dragged through the mud by the clone wars and then Imperial propaganda took over.

Neither Vader nor Palpatine were hiding their presence. The whole point of the attack was that the Emperor was there. Considering the speed of hyperdrive, that could be Coruscant's home fleet (which would explain why Palpatine refered to is as "our sector fleet"). They could fly to Endor in a few hours. The Emperor knew the timing of the Rebel attack to within minutes. Since the attack was composed of every single Rebel ship, there was no need to even leave behind anything but a token security force.

Except for all those rebel cells that would go active that were being kept in check by fear of the ships overhead. And all the internal conflicts. Plus there is the very basic military strategy of not committing more forces than you need.

Ok, please tell me when there were massive riots in multiple cities, complete with the toppling of huge national monuments and the parading around of dead US servicemen. Unless your from a different reality, it never happened.

"The Empire is Dead
Long live the Alliance"

Aaron

I say again, totally disprove all of the EU.

[Ha Lire]

The Imps don't need the moral highground. They have Palpatine, the man who single-handedly plotted the downfall of the Old Republic and Vader, the most powerful Jedi ever. That's worth a little more than the Jedi's Rep. Besides, if the Jedi's were so well thought of, how come they are all but forgotten in less than a generation?

In the beginning there were Jedi. Then, a bad man known as Palpatine took over. Palpatine didn't like the Jedi. One Jedi, known as Anakin, helped Palpatine. Anakin became known as Darth Vader. Now best of friends, they went together and slaughtered the Jedi. After all that play, they decided they didn't much like Jedi after all, and that it was good that they were dead. So what did the two new friends decide to do? They decided to protect the populace by stopping any Jedi threat to their beautiful Empire. What happened when people talked too much about the Jedi? Anakin came and looked for a new Jedi to play with. He usually played with the people spreading the rumor a bit as well. Now, Anakin wasn't that fun to play with. Thus, people stopped talking about the Jedi so that Anakin wouldn't come and play with them.

Poor Anakin, he only wanted a friend.

[Stormbringer]

You're also assuming the Imperial negotiators have the same reputation as do Jedi. Remember the Jedi have been around for millenia and that's got to earn you a reputation.

It's called the moral highground, the Jedi had it and the Imps didn't.

The Imps don't need the moral highground. They have Palpatine, the man who single-handedly plotted the downfall of the Old Republic and Vader, the most powerful Jedi ever. That's worth a little more than the Jedi's Rep. Besides, if the Jedi's were so well thought of, how come they are all but forgotten in less than a generation?

You just claimed exactly what has been said: the Empire dictates and is obeyed because of fear. It's terror tactics at it's best. And even Palpatine and Vader can only be in one place at a time. So you need something else, like say a big fleet of ships!

And the Jedi weren't forgotten. It was more of a cultural taboo to mention them. After all it could risk calling Palpy's Jedi hunters down on you. And the reputation of the Jedi was less than perfect after they allowed to Republic to descend into anarchy and eventually slavery.

And both the Emperor and Vader were trying to hide their presence, calling in a huge fleet would anounce the fact or at least make the Rebels very wary.

Neither Vader nor Palpatine were hiding their presence. The whole point of the attack was that the Emperor was there. Considering the speed of hyperdrive, that could be Coruscant's home fleet (which would explain why Palpatine refered to is as "our sector fleet"). They could fly to Endor in a few hours. The Emperor knew the timing of the Rebel attack to within minutes. Since the attack was composed of every single Rebel ship, there was no need to even leave behind anything but a token security force.

Again, give one shred of proof that's it anything more than a typical outer rim sector fleet. Find something, there has to be something unless you're just talkling out your ass.

The Emperor's visit to the DS2 was unknown to the Rebels although they probably suspected Vader would be there.

Of course the good guys won. But the fact that the Empire fell does not necessarily follow.

There have been plenty of riots in the US against the government that have caused equally great proportional damage. Yet the US government fell to any of them. It's rioting but nothing a little heavy armor and stormies won't disperse.

Ok, please tell me when there were massive riots in multiple cities, complete with the toppling of huge national monuments and the parading around of dead US servicemen. Unless your from a different reality, it never happened.

There were cases of that sort of rioting in the Civil War. In Phildelphia in particular, if I remember right.

And prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that heavy armor or a flight of TIE bomber didn't come in and break up that crowd. Disprove the whole, official EU. And how you can be right against every EU source that disagrees with you.

[Aaron2]

You just claimed exactly what has been said: the Empire dictates and is obeyed because of fear. It's terror tactics at it's best. And even Palpatine and Vader can only be in one place at a time. So you need something else, like say a big fleet of ships!

The Emperor was a master manipulator. Fear had nothing to do with it. Palpy doesn't have to be everywhere at once, people come to him.

I've never said the Empire doesn't need ships. It just doesn't need -millions- of ships. Besides, if the Empire had millions of ships, they turn into ineffectual baffoons incapable of defeating an enemy that can barely muster 30 captial ships. Pathetic. Lower that number down to around 1,000 and the Imperials become an efficient military machine capable of controlling an entire galaxy through skill and determination. Which do you prefer?

Again, give one shred of proof that's it anything more than a typical outer rim sector fleet. Find something, there has to be something unless you're just talkling out your ass.

The Emperor was there. How more atypical can you get? Besides, I'm not the one claiming that there is an identical fleet in every single sector. The burden of proof is in your court, not mine.

The Emperor's visit to the DS2 was unknown to the Rebels although they probably suspected Vader would be there.

I guess when Mon Mothma said "the Emperor himself is personally overseeing the final stages of the construction of this Death Star", the rest of the rebels ignored her. Killing the Emperor was the whole point of the attack.

There were cases of that sort of rioting in the Civil War. In Phildelphia in particular, if I remember right.

Multiple cities? There were fireworks in Coruscant for god's sake. It was more than a simple riot.

And prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that heavy armor or a flight of TIE bomber didn't come in and break up that crowd. Disprove the whole, official EU. And how you can be right against every EU source that disagrees with you.

You can't use EU to prove EU. The movies trump EU.


Aaron

[Stormbringer]

You just claimed exactly what has been said: the Empire dictates and is obeyed because of fear. It's terror tactics at it's best. And even Palpatine and Vader can only be in one place at a time. So you need something else, like say a big fleet of ships!

The Emperor was a master manipulator. Fear had nothing to do with it. Palpy doesn't have to be everywhere at once, people come to him.

I've never said the Empire doesn't need ships. It just doesn't need -millions- of ships. Besides, if the Empire had millions of ships, they turn into ineffectual baffoons incapable of defeating an enemy that can barely muster 30 captial ships. Pathetic. Lower that number down to around 1,000 and the Imperials become an efficient military machine capable of controlling an entire galaxy through skill and determination. Which do you prefer?

That a false dillema. That the Imps have to be incompetent and numerous or small and efficient.

The Empire needs those ships becuase orginizations can muster thousand ship fleets ver minor disputes. There's no way in hell that Palpatine wouln't be able to counter those fleets with a bigger better fleet of it's own. In a rule through force dictatorship you woulldn't want shipping unions to have more warships than you did in your entire military.

Again, give one shred of proof that's it anything more than a typical outer rim sector fleet. Find something, there has to be something unless you're just talkling out your ass.

The Emperor was there. How more atypical can you get? Besides, I'm not the one claiming that there is an identical fleet in every single sector. The burden of proof is in your court, not mine.

I'm not saying it's identical, I'm saying that there is no reason to believe that Endor's fleet is anything out the ordinary. Of course there will be variations in the exact composition but the combat power would be similar.

And if you wish to claim the sector fleet at Endor is unusual, I demand you show some real evidence for it.

The Emperor's visit to the DS2 was unknown to the Rebels although they probably suspected Vader would be there.

I guess when Mon Mothma said "the Emperor himself is personally overseeing the final stages of the construction of this Death Star", the rest of the rebels ignored her. Killing the Emperor was the whole point of the attack.

You're right and I'm wrong.

And the whole point of the attack was to destroy the Death Star not just kill the Emperor.

There were cases of that sort of rioting in the Civil War. In Phildelphia in particular, if I remember right.

Multiple cities? There were fireworks in Coruscant for god's sake. It was more than a simple riot.

And prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that heavy armor or a flight of TIE bomber didn't come in and break up that crowd. Disprove the whole, official EU. And how you can be right against every EU source that disagrees with you.

You can't use EU to prove EU. The movies trump EU.

All we see is rioting, sometthing that could easily be put down by a bit of armor or air strikes. That's not a revolution.

And again, if you wish to claim the EU is wrong you have to provide evidence. Not supposition over a single ambigous scene.

[Mr Bean]

EU intruts after the movies Aaron2, its vveeeery simple, When there's not movies(IE Right after we no Longer SEE Courscant) Then EU takes precidence and EU says that that Riot was cut down bloodly

Deal with it.

[consequences]

Unless, of course, you have more authority than Lucas does when it comes to declaring Star Wars material official. Oh wait, that's right, you don't, and neither does anyone else.

[AL]

Just a thought, when the republic became the empire, wouldnt palpatine nationalize the individual member fleets ( like the trade federation fleet and all the others) and use them, or scrap them so they would not be a threat to his new empire?

[Stormbringer]

Just a thought, when the republic became the empire, wouldnt palpatine nationalize the individual member fleets ( like the trade federation fleet and all the others) and use them, or scrap them so they would not be a threat to his new empire?

He probably would eventually, and I wouldn't be suprised if he reduced the size and power of the respective fleets.

But keep in mind the the decent local fleets can keep piracy and shipjacking under control without the Empire sending in the big guns. That would allow the Empire to keep it's one forces around for dealing with the big threats rather than running down every jumped up son of bitch that decides to try pirating.

[Ender]

Just a thought, when the republic became the empire, wouldnt palpatine nationalize the individual member fleets ( like the trade federation fleet and all the others) and use them, or scrap them so they would not be a threat to his new empire?

That's kinda what he did. Each sector had it's own defensive fleets that the Republic could call upon in times of crisis (IE like they did in the Sith War). Palpatine called them up in the Clone Wars to crush the confederacy, but then never let them go back to local control.

According to ICS and the Saxton interview, older Dreadnaughts make up most of the rim fleets, while Kuat Star Battleships make up many core fleets.

[AL]

if we are sure that the empire has at least 1000 sectors each containing 1000 worlds and trade routs established, and the empire having 25,000 isd and isd varients 25000 total maybe more then they would have no problem hunting down pirates. There would be no need for any individual fleets because you have an empire that controls everything and provides for system and sector defense as well.

[Stormbringer]

According to ICS and the Saxton interview, older Dreadnaughts make up most of the rim fleets, while Kuat Star Battleships make up many core fleets.

What Saxton interview? And is there a copy of it floating around on the net somewhere?

[AL]

I'm going to catch hell for this but here it goes.

I'm not convinced that the old republic had anything of a military force up to episode 2. Sure they had the corellian cruisers or republic cruisers in episode 1, but i would say thats it. In episode 2 the military creation act is mentioned several times. This implies that the Republic needs to create a military and several senators are against this including Padme, she is the head of the oposition. It appears at this time that capital ships are not designed for space combat or ship to ship combat but are geared more towards planetary assault. Palpatine with his new power from the Senate creates an army to defend the republic from the seperatist threat, and the troop transports, Acclamators, to go along with them. I'm not convinced that the Acclamator is designed for ship to ship combat either, but is a dedicated troop transport and planetary assault ship. Then as the Republic begins to becomes empire, maybe in epIII we see the creation of the ISD a ship dedicated to ship to ship combat and ground assault. Thus the newly emerging Empire uses the new fleets of ISDS to destroy the seperatist fleets and invade seperatist planets.

Just a theory one i can't prove at this time, not until epIII comes out anyway.

[Carcharodon]

If the DS I had as much firepower as half the starfleet, you can't get by with fewer than millions of ships without each, on average, having the ability to virtually take a planet apart all by itself. And not just in the sense of BDZ.

[Connor MacLeod]

If the DS I had as much firepower as half the starfleet, you can't get by with fewer than millions of ships without each, on average, having the ability to virtually take a planet apart all by itself. And not just in the sense of BDZ.

I already went over this in the defunct "Imperial Star Destroyer numbers" thread.

And its the WHOLE Imp Starfleet being equal to the superlaser (or actually greater.) the superlaser is GREATEr than half the starfleet, but less than the whole (or equal, depending on the source.)

[SPOOFE]

It just doesn't need -millions- of ships. Besides, if the Empire had millions of ships, they turn into ineffectual baffoons incapable of defeating an enemy that can barely muster 30 captial ships. Pathetic.

Kinda like how the U.S. army got its ass handed to it over in Vietnam, eh?

Millions of ships are only good at controlling a timid populace. You NEED a ship in orbit around a planet as a constant reminder that, at the Emperor's whim, the populace of said planet could be obliterated. The fact that a handful of guerrilas got lucky doesn't underscore that fact.

Remember, the Imperial fleet was never actually capable of engaging the Rebel fleet. If there were a showdown, a battle to the finish, the Rebels would have been decimated. The simple fact that Mon Mothma refers to "the Imperial fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us" (bolding mine) supports the notion that the Empire had massive fleet numbers, and that the Rebels were constantly hiding.

[Spartan]

Ender wrote:

That's kinda what he did. Each sector had it's own defensive fleets that the Republic could call upon in times of crisis (IE like they did in the Sith War). Palpatine called them up in the Clone Wars to crush the confederacy, but then never let them go back to local control.

That still the case after the take over as well, remember the Moff's each control their own Sector fleets, and System govenors still have individual System fleets. Taking into account all sources there is an Imperial Navy which is under the Emperor's control (much likes the stormies are), in addition to the locally control Sector and System fleets.

SPOOFE wrote:

Kinda like how the U.S. army got its ass handed to it over in Vietnam, eh?

Millions of ships are only good at controlling a timid populace. You NEED a ship in orbit around a planet as a constant reminder that, at the Emperor's whim, the populace of said planet could be obliterated. The fact that a handful of guerrilas got lucky doesn't underscore that fact.

That's true to a certain extent, but what’s most important is to have garrisons stationed on every planet. Stormtroopers or Imperial Army forces would be far more effective in ferreting out and deterring Rebel activity. Seriously if you have a handful of malcontents (rebel cells) in the population an ISD in orbit is not going to deter them it can't be everywhere. Politics occurs on planetary surfaces not in space, indiscriminately making an example out of the planets populace won't get those terrorists to turn themselves in.

Remember, the Imperial fleet was never actually capable of engaging the Rebel fleet. If there were a showdown, a battle to the finish, the Rebels would have been decimated. The simple fact that Mon Mothma refers to "the Imperial fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us" (bolding mine) supports the notion that the Empire had massive fleet numbers, and that the Rebels were constantly hiding.

Right on the money, the Rebels never engaged the Imperial in a serious fleet battle until Endor. The so called Rebel fleet was nothing compare to the Imperials. The Empire face the same problem that Britain did with the German surface fleet in WW2. The German and British fleets were 'Fleets in Being'. By virtue of there mere existence they were able to tie up vast fleet and material assets; without firing a shot. The fact that those ships were out there meant that they had to be countered, because they were a standing threat when ever they should appear.