Fed Communism (split from "Stupid Connie")

[E1701]

I also recall reading somewhere that Romulan "ale" is the equivalent of 180-proof stumpblower... :p

[Ender]

Come to think of it, I wonder why is Romulan Ale illegal?

Probably the same reason that Cuban cigars are illegal in the U.S.

[Vapthorne]

On Romulan Ale: That makes sense.

E1701: If this change from 'Old Humans' to 'New Humans' is possible, that might explain a lot. However is goes against one concept of evolution, 'survial of the fittest'. The Old Humans seem much more adapt IMHO.

[Evil Jerk]

In the TMP novelization, which Roddenberry wrote himself, he reveals some very interesting aspects of the ST universe which simply didn't fit into the time span of the movie. But among those, he explains that despite popular opinion, Kirk and his human crew were *not* the proverbial "best and the brightest", because the true brains in the human species were among the so-called "New Humans". Kirk and his human crew were merely the best of the "Old Humans". Basically, if I recall his premise, New Humans are practically a subspecies of homo sapiens, who are the ones who have actually undergone the change in human nature - they have little care for materialism, and are communal creatures by nature, generally more sensitive, better diplomats and scientists, and so on. But they pay a price - they are not as capable fighters, and are ill suited to starship duty and the rigors of space-travel in general, and so starship crews are almost exclusively "Old Human".

Since it was Roddenberry who oversaw most of the first season of TNG on the basis of his own vision, I would hazard a guess that since a full century had passed since Kirk's day, that there *are* no more Old Humans, and that the crew we see in TNG are in fact New Humans in space, and poorly suited to the task. Hence their proclivity towards diplomacy at all costs, the holodeck (although honestly, who here wouldn't put one of those through its paces given the chance... (and dammit, you need an evil winking smily here!)), and their deliberate and innate dislike of materialism on a large scale.

Ha, this'd explain quite a few things about TNG..

The other alternative is that we should take their statements at face value, and allow for the possibility of an overall change in human nature in the context of the ST universe. If you can accept such a possibility in context, there is no problem... if you cannot, you will continue to pigeonhole their society no matter what anyone says, short of the Great Bird himself coming back to beat you over the head with a ghostly fist...

It's not a question of pigeonholing, generally the UFP looks to be communist, not exactly communist like the USSR, I'm not saying they're a bunch of Stalinists, but nonetheless, these large aspects of communism are present.

[E1701]

Well you have to remember, those New Humans may have *been* the fittest... even if they were idiots in space, Roddenberry outfitted them with so much firepower that it would practically never be an issue for them. Their primary environment then would be safely tucked away on a heavily defended planet where they could fiddle with technology and science, and all the hippiness they wanted to, with little concern for the outside universe. That way, they would spread outwards, slowly but surely... a harsh colony world would be founded by the pioneering Old Humans, then tamed, domesticated... and the New Humans could move on in.

The pattern is very similar to that hinted at in Asimov's Foundation universe... except in that case, it wasn't two breeds of human, but rather humans and their invisible robot guardians. And Roddenberry and Asimov traded ideas pretty frequently, so that kind of connection wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Patrick Degan]

Yet the fact that we see commercial trading, independent businesses, and commercial mining in TNG and DS9 is evidence of communism?

Oh? And where is the evidence for independent commercial concerns (other than black market activities on the frontier) within the Federation in either series? Name the episodes, please.

[Ender]

In the TMP novelization, which Roddenberry wrote himself

Nitpick:
It was ghost written by Alan Dean Foster.

[NecronLord]

Unlikely that he does given the free competition.

Which was a Fed research vessel, with a fed number, fed terminals, fed doors and no toys for seven, so much so that she spen t her childhood playing with her perants borg cube models...

Free competition, how do you know there aren't others....do you seriously believe that Picards vineyard is the only one in existence? Also, why would his brother say that he doesn't do it for the money if money isn't used at all, or was he being sarcasitic?

Replicators are free competition...

My dad never had any toys, he had to make his own he was raised in the US, so what's your point? Was it stated to be a Federation research ship?

[/quote]They had to get permission from the "Federation Exobiology council" to use it...

[NecronLord]

Am I the only one who saw Aleska trying to argue based on Novels and games before?

[NecronLord]

Am I the only one who saw Aleska trying to argue based on Novels and games before?

By which evidence I want to state that Kyle Katarn shouts out "Jediwannabe" and becomes invincible?!

[NecronLord]

And as to the "Tell 5 products to someone in Kabul". And how often do people really talk about that? How often do people refer to corporations in real day life? How often do you even see that in TV series? As I said, Stargate is a scifi series that portrays just as much private business and monetary systems

Season Two; Bane, Teal'c leaves and goes around an industrial estate, at the end of the ep he give a super-soaker to a child

thats two

Season Two; Holiday, M'achello visits a burger bar, excluding the taxi he takes, and the other shops he walks by on the high street

thats three

Season one; Fire and water. Daniel Jackson and O'neill both have cars

thats five

Season Four; The Light, more cars and glimses of American City.

Thats about four thousand.

[Vympel]

This debate is getting tiresome. Alyeska, if you really think you can prove that the Federation is in fact some sort of hybrid socialist whatever instead of hard-core communist as Wong argues (convincingly), post a lengthy rebuttal of Wong's essay on the topic.

[Darth Wong]

Define what you would accept as proof of communism.

A clear statement that private property does not exist. That private property does not exist. That the rights of the people are specifically less then the rights of the government. The fact that the people in uniform live relatively similar lives means nothing because people in uniform never make much money nor vast different sums of money.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How often did you hear people in China or the former Soviet Union making such clear statements? If you saw people walking around for a few days, making minor transactions with their currency and referring to things as "my" dache or "my" car, would you have concluded that they were capitalist too?

Communism has all people being the same, no money, no religion, no private property, no privacy.

Wrong. Your ignorance is showing. What the fuck do you think a ruble was? Did you know that people had their own apartments, etc? Did you know that party and military officials had bigger, nicer places than regular people? Did you know that people did have privacy in their homes (at least, as much as they do today in the US after the "USA Patriot Act" was passed )

At the same time, there is no proof that the Federation is purely capitalist.

False dilemma. You are generating a ridiculous caricature of communism and then proving that the Federation does not match it, even though it does match the former Soviet Union in most respects. Then, you deflect demands for evidence of capitalism (any form of investment, ie- "capital" whatsoever) by saying that you don't need to provide evidence of "pure" capitalism. No one's asking for that; we're asking for evidence of ANY kind of capitalism, since capitalism requires "capital" as part of its BASE DEFINITION (not just a form of money; the Soviets had rubles, and not just people referring to things as "mine"; that is pure sophistry), and capital is money which can be invested.

Capital:

1. 1. Wealth in the form of money or property, used or accumulated in a business by a person, partnership, or corporation.
2. 2. Material wealth used or available for use in the production of more wealth

Where do you think the word "capitalism" comes from? If you can't invest it, it ain't capital.

The only examples of private business you can find are Quark's bar (not a Federation citizen, and Bajor is not a Federation planet), Ezri's family (fled the Federation to New Sydney in order to start their business; more evidence for my argument, not yours), and Cassidy's freighter (she paid her crew in latinum, not credits, and she was arrested for using her supposedly private property in a manner deemed inappropriate by the Federation outside its territorial jurisdiction; clear evidence of a black-market operation if I ever saw one). A farm is not necessarily a capitalist business (do you think there are no family farms in China, for fuck's sake?), and neither is a restaurant (tourists who visited Moscow during communism (yes, this was possible) could eat in restaurants and pay for their food in either dollars or rubles).

Stop using disproofs of communism which are actually nothing of the sort.

[2000AD]

Saying that Stargate SG1 is set in a communist state is stupid because it is set in present day USA, which isn't communist (to my knowledge).

This is one reason why writing sci-fi is harder than writing things set in real life. In a RL novel you can just say it takes place in present day USA and people will know what it's government is, major corporations, etc. If you make up a fictional government you will have to tell people what form of government it is. ST has never said what sort of government it has, but it has showed evidence that it was one time capitalist and then changed to a communist like state.

[Darth Wong]

A brief review of philosophical methods is in order. An easily falsifiable theory which is nevertheless not falsified is superior to a virtually unfalsifiable theory which is not falsified.

In this case, Alyeska is demanding a specific scene in which people sit around explaining that there is no such thing as money or private property, and that everyone is equal with no distinctions whatsoever. In effect, he places the bar impossibly high; he wants a clunky expository scene that would not occur even in a real-life communist state.

In my case, I'm not asking for specific scenes with specific dialogue depicting gross exaggerations of capitalism, we demand only examples of capital (not just currency, but capital, hence capitalism). ANY examples will do. Ezri's family business, for example, would easily qualify if it were actually on a Federation world (which it is not). So I have asked for a very mild, easily satisfied burden of proof, which Alyeska has not met.

His only response has been to demand the aforementioned completely unreasonable form of proof, with the rhetorical flourish that in its absence, we must assume a hybrid system

[NecronLord]

in another episode Teal'c is watching Anti-capitalist riots on CNN.

[Alyeska]

Just a little something I remembered.

This is in regards to Cassidy and her being arrested for supplying the Maquis.

Ok, she was arrested by the Federation because you claim she was illegally supplying the Maquis. Well, this is a Bajoran station and she is as you claim indepdendent. So Federation law would not pertain here, rather Bajoran law. However Cassidy was not arrested by Odo or the station security, but rather the Federation security compliment.

If she is not a Federation citizen this would mean.

The Federation arrested someone who was not a Federation citizen doing something outside of the Federation. This would be like the US arresting people in international waters for "crimes" they commited in other countries where the other country infact does not care.

On the other hand, if Cassidy IS a Federation citizen, that would mean supporting the Maquis, even outside of Federation territory, is still a crime. In this case, the Federation would have the authority to arrest its citizens outside of Federation territory and on allied installations (as in DS9).

Cassidy is a Federation citizen who broke Federation law and was thus arrested. If she was not a Federation citizen, then that means she is an independent who broke no laws within the Federation and was arrested by the Federation for things she did otuside of the Federation that allies of the Federation did not see as crimes and thus did not arrest her.

[Evil Jerk]

The Maquis as a whole aren't Federation citizens either seeing as their worlds were handed over to the Cardies, and the Feds arrest them, don't they?

[Kamakazie Sith]

The Maquis as a whole aren't Federation citizens either seeing as their worlds were handed over to the Cardies, and the Feds arrest them, don't they?

IIRC they were still considered Federation citizens but they were left with a choice they could be re-located or stay on those worlds being UFP citizens under Cardassian rule.

[Kamakazie Sith]

A brief review of philosophical methods is in order. An easily falsifiable theory which is nevertheless not falsified is superior to a virtually unfalsifiable theory which is not falsified.

In this case, Alyeska is demanding a specific scene in which people sit around explaining that there is no such thing as money or private property, and that everyone is equal with no distinctions whatsoever. In effect, he places the bar impossibly high; he wants a clunky expository scene that would not occur even in a real-life communist state.

In my case, I'm not asking for specific scenes with specific dialogue depicting gross exaggerations of capitalism, we demand only examples of capital (not just currency, but capital, hence capitalism). ANY examples will do. Ezri's family business, for example, would easily qualify if it were actually on a Federation world (which it is not). So I have asked for a very mild, easily satisfied burden of proof, which Alyeska has not met.

His only response has been to demand the aforementioned completely unreasonable form of proof, with the rhetorical flourish that in its absence, we must assume a hybrid system

We've seen life aboard a military starship, and life aboard a military controlled station. We've seen glimpses of civilian life, who seem to be free to go about their business without the government constantly prying. However, in your opinion we have seen enough to reasonable conclude that the UFP is communist and not a hybrid?

[Master of Ossus]

Alyeska, arresting people who have broken laws outside of the country in which the laws exist is precedented. How the hell do you think that the Nazi war criminals were hunted down by British and American intelligence operatives? Why do you think that Noriega was able to be arrested, even though he had never travelled to the US? How do you think that Nazis fleeing to Argentina could be arrested by the Israeli Mossad, IN ARGENTINA, after committing crimes before Israel was even a nation? I can't help but have the feeling that you are trying to create another false dillema. Countries have been known to arrest non-citizens for breaking their laws outside of their own borders. Sometimes they have arrested people well outside their borders. Also, since the Federation almost certainly considers the Maquis to be within their territory, they could easily claim that Cassidy had been gun-running (or whatever) within their territory, illegally. Clearly Cassidy could be both independent, and arrested by Federation officers.

[Perinquus]

A brief review of philosophical methods is in order. An easily falsifiable theory which is nevertheless not falsified is superior to a virtually unfalsifiable theory which is not falsified.

In this case, Alyeska is demanding a specific scene in which people sit around explaining that there is no such thing as money or private property, and that everyone is equal with no distinctions whatsoever. In effect, he places the bar impossibly high; he wants a clunky expository scene that would not occur even in a real-life communist state.

In my case, I'm not asking for specific scenes with specific dialogue depicting gross exaggerations of capitalism, we demand only examples of capital (not just currency, but capital, hence capitalism). ANY examples will do. Ezri's family business, for example, would easily qualify if it were actually on a Federation world (which it is not). So I have asked for a very mild, easily satisfied burden of proof, which Alyeska has not met.

His only response has been to demand the aforementioned completely unreasonable form of proof, with the rhetorical flourish that in its absence, we must assume a hybrid system

We've seen life aboard a military starship, and life aboard a military controlled station. We've seen glimpses of civilian life, who seem to be free to go about their business without the government constantly prying. However, in your opinion we have seen enough to reasonable conclude that the UFP is communist and not a hybrid?

We have seen enough. We've seen literally thousands of hours of footage about the various Star Trek characters and their lives, and we've seen nary a hint of capitalism inside the Federation. In real life you see evidence of captialism even in the military. When I was in the army one of the platoon sergeants in my company was irritated because he was involved in a business venture with an officer from another battalion, and the army passed some new regs to prevent fraternization of officers and enlisted, so he was going to have to disolve this partnership in a year, when the grace period would run out for those already engaged in things which had become prohibited under the new regulation.

I knew soldiers who owned boats. One had a private plane. One was a ham radio operator. (I grant you these are not capitalistic ventures, but they do indicate private ownership of things the like of which Federation citizens never seem to own).

And of course, military people get time off, and when they do they tend to go and enjoy themselves. They rent cars and travel, they rent jet skis, they go shopping (and buy things manufactured, shipped, and sold by numerous different corporations), they fly on commercial airlines and stay in hotel chains. Even while on duty, they use things made by companies. The John Deere corporation was trying to sell the army one of its little four wheel utillity vehicles, so our battalion, among others, got sent one so we could test it in actual field use, we used it mainly for hauling things like ammo and other heavy equipment around inside our patrol base or cantonment area while we were in the field on exercises. At our ammo supply point, where we drew our battalion's ammo for training, when you walked in the door of the office, right there on the wall was big poster advertisement for FN, showing a number of their products (Fabrique National, Herstal Belgium - this is the arms company that makes the M249 squad automatic weapon [light machine gun], and the M240B general purpose machine gun, and they also made the army's M16A2s for a while when they put in a lower bid and won the contract from Colt - Colt has since won it back for the M4 carbine, which is replacing the M16A2). At Wheeler Army Airfield, and Hickam Air Force Base, I saw posters for Raytheon, and McDonnell Douglas.

The point is, there is loads of evidence for capitalism not only in our society, but in our military. You could not expect to film thousands of hours of footage about a group of military personnel in the present day U.S. armed forces, and not end up showing some of this evidence. Not only do we see no evidence of this kind in Star Trek, we also see evidence to suggest that capitalism does not exist in the Federation, and that things are run on communist or socialist lines.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The point is, there is loads of evidence for capitalism not only in our society, but in our military. You could not expect to film thousands of hours of footage about a group of military personnel in the present day U.S. armed forces, and not end up showing some of this evidence. Not only do we see no evidence of this kind in Star Trek, we also see evidence to suggest that capitalism does not exist in the Federation, and that things are run on communist or socialist lines.

I've watched many shows in the discovery channel involving the military and I never once saw any soldiers personal car, house, ect. Have you?

All I am saying is that we have seen evidence of the possibility of capitalism. (Siskos restraunt, Picards Vineyard, Holonovel Companies) Just as we have seen evidence of the possibility of communism. However, that evidence seems to be strictly related to humans and starfleet personal.

For example in what episode Jake is asking Nog for some money....here is the quote.

Jake : "Come on Nog!"
Nog : "No!"
Jake : "Why not?"
Nog : "It's my money Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money."
Jake : "I'm Human, I don't have any money."
Nog : "It's not my fault your species decided to abandon currency based economics in favour of some philosophy of self enhancement."
Jake : "Hey, watch it! There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
Nog : "What does that mean, exactly?"
Jake : "It means... it means we don't need money."
Nog : "Well if you don't need money then you certainly don't need mine."

(The key is in the word "species") Humans don't use money, that does not mean that the UFP does not use money.

[Evil Jerk]

The point is, there is loads of evidence for capitalism not only in our society, but in our military. You could not expect to film thousands of hours of footage about a group of military personnel in the present day U.S. armed forces, and not end up showing some of this evidence. Not only do we see no evidence of this kind in Star Trek, we also see evidence to suggest that capitalism does not exist in the Federation, and that things are run on communist or socialist lines.

I've watched many shows in the discovery channel involving the military and I never once saw any soldiers personal car, house, ect. Have you?

All I am saying is that we have seen evidence of the possibility of capitalism. (Siskos restraunt, Picards Vineyard, Holonovel Companies) Just as we have seen evidence of the possibility of communism. However, that evidence seems to be strictly related to humans and starfleet personal.

For example in what episode Jake is asking Nog for some money....here is the quote.

Jake : "Come on Nog!"
Nog : "No!"
Jake : "Why not?"
Nog : "It's my money Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money."
Jake : "I'm Human, I don't have any money."
Nog : "It's not my fault your species decided to abandon currency based economics in favour of some philosophy of self enhancement."
Jake : "Hey, watch it! There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
Nog : "What does that mean, exactly?"
Jake : "It means... it means we don't need money."
Nog : "Well if you don't need money then you certainly don't need mine."

(The key is in the word "species") Humans don't use money, that does not mean that the UFP does not use money.

Oh please, the UFP, largely run by humans, it's capital and most other significant facilities on the human's home world won't run things the human way?

[Kamakazie Sith]

The point is, there is loads of evidence for capitalism not only in our society, but in our military. You could not expect to film thousands of hours of footage about a group of military personnel in the present day U.S. armed forces, and not end up showing some of this evidence. Not only do we see no evidence of this kind in Star Trek, we also see evidence to suggest that capitalism does not exist in the Federation, and that things are run on communist or socialist lines.

I've watched many shows in the discovery channel involving the military and I never once saw any soldiers personal car, house, ect. Have you?

All I am saying is that we have seen evidence of the possibility of capitalism. (Siskos restraunt, Picards Vineyard, Holonovel Companies) Just as we have seen evidence of the possibility of communism. However, that evidence seems to be strictly related to humans and starfleet personal.

For example in what episode Jake is asking Nog for some money....here is the quote.

Jake : "Come on Nog!"
Nog : "No!"
Jake : "Why not?"
Nog : "It's my money Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money."
Jake : "I'm Human, I don't have any money."
Nog : "It's not my fault your species decided to abandon currency based economics in favour of some philosophy of self enhancement."
Jake : "Hey, watch it! There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
Nog : "What does that mean, exactly?"
Jake : "It means... it means we don't need money."
Nog : "Well if you don't need money then you certainly don't need mine."

(The key is in the word "species") Humans don't use money, that does not mean that the UFP does not use money.

Oh please, the UFP, largely run by humans, it's capital and most other significant facilities on the human's home world won't run things the human way?

Humans 1 of the 150 members. What do you think?