Bitter Trek Fan? :D

[Jon]

Since I registered here I've been attempting to brush up on the main site and read over *everything*- I'm getting there. (I dont want to be a no0b asking things that have already been convered comprehensively). I, as a trekkie, can't deny that the information compiled (and impressive it is) vastly favours the Empire (i'm not talking about bias, its all canon stuff of course).

I take it you're not the biggest lover of Star Trek, Mike? I couldn't find much critisism of the Tech/Ideals/Science of Star Wars, or maybe I just haven't looked in the right places yet

I think its back to the old live action thing, Star Trek has hundereds of hours of it, and it's main focus is upon storyline, science, tech, engineering etc is only there to aid it, and as sad as I get, I must admit the amount of times nice theories have appeared but been ballsed up, continues to grow even with Enterprise. Star Wars has vastly less live action then Star Trek and on film at least, hardly gives the same attention to technology that Star Trek does- so because (afaik) Star Wars books are considered canon, people who actually know what they are talking about get a chance to write realistic science/tech stuff, while that has happened in Trek, its not canon so it's useless.

I just can't help finding myself thinking the 'numbers' in Star Wars are so much bigger than in Star Trek- I really don't think it is fair to play these two universes off against each other. Boba Fett's ship could piss all over the Enterprise D, for gods sake

It's not right ! bah

But as much as I love trek, I now realise it is simply for the ideas of their technology, the characters, the stories, because reading the site has really made me think how idiotic the whole premise of Star Trek science and Engineering is.

My favourite quote on the site magnifies it.

They never use any low-technology solutions; can you imagine seeing a bucket or a wrench in Star Trek?

Bah ! I might have had some revelations about Trek but I'm still not entirely convinced about Star Wars Considering the site is rather unbalanced in its favour, i mean, sure it explains how all the tech apparently works and how all these massive figures appear but justification and the exploration of underlying principles? Not all there, IMO. I 'know' alot about all the Star Trek tech, etc etc, but I've not let anything seep through (I hope)- I dont want to argue about it, because in my experience its fruitless, hence my attempt at just discussing what already appears on the site But its all good, the site has put Trek in a new light for me and triggered an interest in Star Wars tech, which I am hopefully going to brush myself upon, I watched the old trilogy over the last weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it, though again, there is little about the Tech in that, so I guess books are my next stop.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

The way I see it, there isn't any hooplah about the tech in Star Wars because it isn't thrown at us with pseudo-science justifications like in Trek. Believe me, I love good Trek, but nothing pisses me off more than some half-hearted explanation for some tech solution to an emotionless false dilemma problem.

For example, when in SW have we seen a whole plot revolve around a tachyon cascade in the alluvial dampeners affecting the heisenberg compensators resulting in a race-against-time search for some technobabble solution that means nothing?

And don't get me started on the traveller! "Warp fields in space-time are caused by your naughty thoughts, Wesley..." My ass!

Here's how tech works in SW:
"Can we still fly?"
"Nope. The ship broke."
"Oh my goodness gracious me!"

[Isolder74]

this is then follow by pulling out a box of parts and a wrench and proceeding to fix/replace bad part. Tech in Star Wars is treated by SW people like a mechanic would a car

[Ghost Rider]

The way I see it, there isn't any hooplah about the tech in Star Wars because it isn't thrown at us with pseudo-science justifications like in Trek. Believe me, I love good Trek, but nothing pisses me off more than some half-hearted explanation for some tech solution to an emotionless false dilemma problem.

For example, when in SW have we seen a whole plot revolve around a tachyon cascade in the alluvial dampeners affecting the heisenberg compensators resulting in a race-against-time search for some technobabble solution that means nothing?

And don't get me started on the traveller! "Warp fields in space-time are caused by your naughty thoughts, Wesley..." My ass!

Here's how tech works in SW:
"Can we still fly?"
"Nope. The ship broke."
"Oh my goodness gracious me!"

Very succient and true about much of modern Trek.

SW tech also is treated as background...literally, stuff either does or doesn't. Never saw even in the worst books in any chapter do we have Han wondering if the anti-matter mix in the hyperdrive is correct, while Threepio deals with his feminine side.

[Isolder74]

In Courtship of Princess Liea, There is that the Jammers being turned on while the Navicomputer is on burning out key systems but it is treated as it was a hardware conflict nothing more.

Get the right parts and we are good to go!

[Darth Wong]

Roger Ebert put it best. Star Trek shows Man humbled by the universe. Star Wars shows the universe domesticated by Man.

[Patrick Degan]

Roger Ebert put it best. Star Trek shows Man humbled by the universe. Star Wars shows the universe domesticated by Man.

It wasn't always so. TOS had a fairly domesticated universe. Of course, that was when they still had people in the show instead of PC drones.

[Eframepilot]

There are a very few instances of technobabble in Star Wars, some harmless filler, some annoying pseudoscience.

Harmless filler: Mostly in TESB, between Han Solo and C-3P0. "Sir! I've isolated the reverse flux power coupling!" And of course the mysterious alluvial dampers. Why the Millenium Falcon needs to damp sediment deposited by running water is beyond me.

Pseudoscience: The thing they did at the end of Vector Prime to destroy Helska. Using 6 of Lando's old shieldships from Nkllon, they somehow reflect the power emitted by a Yammosk back to the surface of the icy planet. It causes the ice to partially melt, which then evaporates and in violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics cools the planet so close to absolute zero that it enters another stage of matter and shatters. The whole planet, that is. So much for gravitational potential energy.

R.A. Salvatore apparently got the idea from recent experiments in creating Bose-Einstein condensates. Clouds of super-cool atoms, at less than 1 K, are slowed by laser traps. To reach the nanokelvin range, the trapped atoms are allowed to lose their last bit of significant thermal energy by evaporation. But this only works on systems of gases already supercooled to below liquid helium temperatures and would never work on an entire planet. The effect Salvatore described made as much sense as trying to freeze a glass of ice water solid by heating it with laser beams.

[Eframepilot]

Roger Ebert put it best. Star Trek shows Man humbled by the universe. Star Wars shows the universe domesticated by Man.

It wasn't always so. TOS had a fairly domesticated universe. Of course, that was when they still had people in the show instead of PC drones.

I wouldn't say that. TOS had a lot of humbling things, possibly more per episode than later Trek. To start with, there was the mysterious barrier at the edge of the galaxy in the pilot. Also the Giant Space Amoeba, the many Beings Beyond Human Comprehension, the frequent extragalactic invasions (Kelvans, "Catspaw" aliens, Doomsday Machine, evil parasitic flying fried eggs of Doom) and the ancient computers posing as gods that Kirk pressed Ctrl-Alt-Delete on. Kirk and co. never knew what they'd find when beaming down to a planet. Romans, Greeks, Nazis, cowboys, Indians, gangsters, flag-worshipping degenerated Americans, you name it!

[Darth Wong]

I wouldn't say that. TOS had a lot of humbling things, possibly more per episode than later Trek. To start with, there was the mysterious barrier at the edge of the galaxy in the pilot. Also the Giant Space Amoeba, the many Beings Beyond Human Comprehension, the frequent extragalactic invasions (Kelvans, "Catspaw" aliens, Doomsday Machine, evil parasitic flying fried eggs of Doom) and the ancient computers posing as gods that Kirk pressed Ctrl-Alt-Delete on. Kirk and co. never knew what they'd find when beaming down to a planet. Romans, Greeks, Nazis, cowboys, Indians, gangsters, flag-worshipping degenerated Americans, you name it!

Yes, but KIRK WAS NEVER FAZED BY THESE THINGS. They were all obstacles to be overcome. Kirk KILLED that giant space amoeba. Kirk took on all those many beings beyond human comprehension, without hesitation. Kirk DESTROYED the Doomsday Machine. Kirk killed the parasitic flying fried eggs of doom. Kirk outwitted the ancient computers. Kirk was The Man. Kirk would stand up to a god and tell him to get lost. Picard would be humbled.

[Tribun]

I wouldn't say that. TOS had a lot of humbling things, possibly more per episode than later Trek. To start with, there was the mysterious barrier at the edge of the galaxy in the pilot. Also the Giant Space Amoeba, the many Beings Beyond Human Comprehension, the frequent extragalactic invasions (Kelvans, "Catspaw" aliens, Doomsday Machine, evil parasitic flying fried eggs of Doom) and the ancient computers posing as gods that Kirk pressed Ctrl-Alt-Delete on. Kirk and co. never knew what they'd find when beaming down to a planet. Romans, Greeks, Nazis, cowboys, Indians, gangsters, flag-worshipping degenerated Americans, you name it!

Yes, but KIRK WAS NEVER FAZED BY THESE THINGS. They were all obstacles to be overcome. Kirk KILLED that giant space amoeba. Kirk took on all those many beings beyond human comprehension, without hesitation. Kirk DESTROYED the Doomsday Machine. Kirk killed the parasitic flying fried eggs of doom. Kirk outwitted the ancient computers. Kirk was The Man. Kirk would stand up to a god and tell him to get lost. Picard would be humbled.

Is that what you mean with "Real Men"?

[Eframepilot]

I wouldn't say that. TOS had a lot of humbling things, possibly more per episode than later Trek. To start with, there was the mysterious barrier at the edge of the galaxy in the pilot. Also the Giant Space Amoeba, the many Beings Beyond Human Comprehension, the frequent extragalactic invasions (Kelvans, "Catspaw" aliens, Doomsday Machine, evil parasitic flying fried eggs of Doom) and the ancient computers posing as gods that Kirk pressed Ctrl-Alt-Delete on. Kirk and co. never knew what they'd find when beaming down to a planet. Romans, Greeks, Nazis, cowboys, Indians, gangsters, flag-worshipping degenerated Americans, you name it!

Yes, but KIRK WAS NEVER FAZED BY THESE THINGS. They were all obstacles to be overcome. Kirk KILLED that giant space amoeba. Kirk took on all those many beings beyond human comprehension, without hesitation. Kirk DESTROYED the Doomsday Machine. Kirk killed the parasitic flying fried eggs of doom. Kirk outwitted the ancient computers. Kirk was The Man. Kirk would stand up to a god and tell him to get lost. Picard would be humbled.

Picard stood up to gods. He never showed respect to Q, saw through Ardra, kept after Kevin Uxbridge until he had the truth, etc. But both Kirk and Picard were obsessed with exploring, seeing what wonders lie beyond the horizon, going where there be dragons. I suspect Ebert was thinking of the scenes in ST 1 and 5 where the crew stare at the screen and watch the wonders of V'ger or the planet Sha'ka'ree. You'd never see that in a Star Wars movie. (Nor would you want to, unless you were suffering from insomnia).

[Connor MacLeod]

Hell, I hardly look at this part of the message board anymore. I doubt I'll update my SWvs St website again in the near future; it simply doesn't interest me as much anymore. Unless I feel like bitch-slapping Dipshit into next week, like my last update did so handidly.

I thought you were working on some sortt of novel database or something

[The Dark]

I enjoy portions of both SW and ST. I like most of TOS (there are a few meh episodes), a couple episodes of TNG (the less soap-opera ones), and about half the movies (odd-even rule applies usually). For Star Wars I enjoy the original trilogy, and like particular scenes from the prequels (the two in their entirety are rather craptacular compared to the originals, particularly under cost/coolness analysis).

The difference lies in each setting. ST is about future society, with (originally) a focus on what makes humans human by looking at alien cultures. Much like Asimov's writings, the science fiction was merely a vessel to tell the story. Later, it became tecno-babble focused under B&B.

Star Wars is a futuristic military tale at its core essence, with the prequels attempting to layer deeper plots over what is, at its core, a fun romp. Likewise, it doesn't require the high technology to work, which is a mark of a universalizable plot (which is a good thing IMO).

[Darth Wong]

Picard stood up to gods. He never showed respect to Q, saw through Ardra, kept after Kevin Uxbridge until he had the truth, etc.

Not the same. Picard talked back to Q but never actually tried to bring him down. Ardra was not a god at all. And Kevin Uxbridge ... Picard regaled us with a mealy-mouthed morally ambiguous declaration of uncertainty after discovering that he'd committed genocide. Sympathy for the devil is hardly defiance.

But both Kirk and Picard were obsessed with exploring, seeing what wonders lie beyond the horizon, going where there be dragons. I suspect Ebert was thinking of the scenes in ST 1 and 5 where the crew stare at the screen and watch the wonders of V'ger or the planet Sha'ka'ree. You'd never see that in a Star Wars movie. (Nor would you want to, unless you were suffering from insomnia).

Kirk was just as concerned with expanding and maintaining the Federation's territorial influence.

[DaveJB]

Another good example: The Vampire Cloud and Giant Amoeba had killed at least 1000 people between them. Kirk recognised the threat they posed, and had no trouble deciding to blow them up.

Fast-forward to TNG. The Crystalline Entity had killed thousands, possibly millions of people. Does Picard kill it? No, he tries to ask it not to go around eating people! And when Dr. Marr blows it up, everyone acts like she's some kind of criminal. Using that logic, if a Lion that's part of an endangered species is about to kill me, I should just lie down and let it snack on me!

[Sarevok]

Another good example: The Vampire Cloud and Giant Amoeba had killed at least 1000 people between them. Kirk recognised the threat they posed, and had no trouble deciding to blow them up.

Fast-forward to TNG. The Crystalline Entity had killed thousands, possibly millions of people. Does Picard kill it? No, he tries to ask it not to go around eating people! And when Dr. Marr blows it up, everyone acts like she's some kind of criminal. Using that logic, if a Lion that's part of an endangered species is about to kill me, I should just lie down and let it snack on me!

Good comparision. It shows the difference between TNG and TOS.

[DaveJB]

Thinking about it, that Lion comparison I made doesn't really work. Here's a better (and more amusing) version:

TOS Style

Lion: ROOOOOOAAAAAR!!
Kirk: Yikes! (Pulls out his phaser and vaporises the Lion)

TNG Style

Lion: ROOOOOOAAAAAR!!
Picard: I understand that you are hungry, and your kind is endangered, but Humans are sentient beings, and we do not... AIEEEEEE!! (Is eaten by the Lion)
Lion: <BURP!>

[Ghost Rider]

Thinking about it, that Lion comparison I made doesn't really work. Here's a better (and more amusing) version:

TOS Style

Lion: ROOOOOOAAAAAR!!
Kirk: Yikes! (Pulls out his phaser and vaporises the Lion)

TNG Style

Lion: ROOOOOOAAAAAR!!
Picard: I understand that you are hungry, and your kind is endangered, but Humans are sentient beings, and we do not... AIEEEEEE!! (Is eaten by the Lion)
Lion: <BURP!>

Pah no sense of true TOS.

What would happen

Lion(male): ROAR!!!
*tears Kirk's shirt*
Kirk: You...bastard.
*Kirk beats on Lion with Kirk-Fu*

Lion(female): Ro...
Kirk: You are the most...beautiful...creature, ever.
*Kirk has a new pussy*

Lion: ROAR!!
Picard: Please, creature. I understand your hunger wishes you to devour me, but we must go beyond such baseless, trivial thoughts. Are we so cruel and unthinking that we feel the need to debase ourselves in.......
*Lion bites Picards head off*

[Eframepilot]

Picard stood up to gods. He never showed respect to Q, saw through Ardra, kept after Kevin Uxbridge until he had the truth, etc.

Not the same. Picard talked back to Q but never actually tried to bring him down. Ardra was not a god at all. And Kevin Uxbridge ... Picard regaled us with a mealy-mouthed morally ambiguous declaration of uncertainty after discovering that he'd committed genocide. Sympathy for the devil is hardly defiance.

Picard fought back against Q in "Encounter at Farpoint" with spreads of photon torpedos, sending the saucer ahead and turning to face Q, etc. Afterward it became obvious there was no way to effectively fight Q, nor was directly fighting him really necessary. Picard would have reacted to the weaker, less stable Trelane mostly the same as Kirk did. And Picard's response to the Douwd was a little weak, but what would Kirk have done? Punch him and risk having humanity wiped out?

But both Kirk and Picard were obsessed with exploring, seeing what wonders lie beyond the horizon, going where there be dragons. I suspect Ebert was thinking of the scenes in ST 1 and 5 where the crew stare at the screen and watch the wonders of V'ger or the planet Sha'ka'ree. You'd never see that in a Star Wars movie. (Nor would you want to, unless you were suffering from insomnia).

Kirk was just as concerned with expanding and maintaining the Federation's territorial influence.[/quote]
Expanding and maintaining territorial influence is a frontier duty (and something Picard did as well, but not as militantly). The point I originally wanted to make is that Kirk's galaxy was not in the slightest bit "domesticated"; it was full of strange new worlds and new (or not-so-new) civilizations. Kirk had a kick-butt attitude towards them, but that certainly didn't make them domesticated. The TNG Alpha Quadrant was much more tame; an exploration mission for the E-D usually meant charting some nebula or investigating some obscure steller phenomenon.

I disagree with Ebert's statement about "Man humbled by the universe", as practically all Trek captains were arrogant to the extreme. Picard was more holier-than-thou than anyone, Sisko blackmailed his own gods, and the less said about Janeway the better. Also, the reverse isn't really true for Star Wars, as the vast, mysterious Force triumphs over the greatest technological terrors man could create. A better analogy would be to compare Trek to the age of exploration and Wars to the 21st century. In Trek, there are entire oceans and continents still to explore on the planet (galaxy). Space is still wondrous. In Wars, everything has been pretty much explored and photographed. There are still Unknown Regions like the ocean floor, but they're mostly backward and boring. Space is mundane.

[Darth Wong]

Picard fought back against Q in "Encounter at Farpoint" with spreads of photon torpedos, sending the saucer ahead and turning to face Q, etc. Afterward it became obvious there was no way to effectively fight Q, nor was directly fighting him really necessary. Picard would have reacted to the weaker, less stable Trelane mostly the same as Kirk did. And Picard's response to the Douwd was a little weak, but what would Kirk have done? Punch him and risk having humanity wiped out?

In all cases, however, Kirk never lost sight of the fact that this is the enemy: someone to be either feared, fought, or both. Picard, on the other hand, is all too quick to see things from the other person's point of view, even if that point of view is insane, evil, or just plain unacceptable to humanity for reasons of self-defense. The crystalline entity that someone else brought up is another excellent example.

Expanding and maintaining territorial influence is a frontier duty (and something Picard did as well, but not as militantly).

He sacrificed the Federation's interests on more than one occasion for a moral imperative of highly questionable validity.

The point I originally wanted to make is that Kirk's galaxy was not in the slightest bit "domesticated"; it was full of strange new worlds and new (or not-so-new) civilizations. Kirk had a kick-butt attitude towards them, but that certainly didn't make them domesticated. The TNG Alpha Quadrant was much more tame; an exploration mission for the E-D usually meant charting some nebula or investigating some obscure steller phenomenon.

I think the point of contention here is that you think "domesticated" means "no more challenges". TOS presented challenges that could usually be overcome or fought or tricked in some manner that humanity would prevail. TNG often seemed to present challenges that weren't challenges in the military sense, but rather, in the moral sense: the ultimate message was often that humanity was wrong, foolish, stupid, ignorant, and dangerous. "Encounter at Farpoint" set the tone for the whole series; it was as if they took the single TOS episode "Devil in the Dark" and used it as the template for every episode.

I disagree with Ebert's statement about "Man humbled by the universe", as practically all Trek captains were arrogant to the extreme. Picard was more holier-than-thou than anyone, Sisko blackmailed his own gods, and the less said about Janeway the better. Also, the reverse isn't really true for Star Wars, as the vast, mysterious Force triumphs over the greatest technological terrors man could create. A better analogy would be to compare Trek to the age of exploration and Wars to the 21st century. In Trek, there are entire oceans and continents still to explore on the planet (galaxy). Space is still wondrous. In Wars, everything has been pretty much explored and photographed. There are still Unknown Regions like the ocean floor, but they're mostly backward and boring. Space is mundane.

How is what you just said any different than what Ebert said? Space is domesticated in Star Wars, and not in Star Trek. "Domesticated" doesn't mean "absolute dominion over with no threats whatsoever remaining", but it does mean the difference between intrepid exploration and business. The Toronto-area has been domesticated, but that doesn't mean I won't be in trouble if I run into a rabid raccoon down by the Humber river.

[Darth Wong]

Walper's asinine display of bullshit split to another thread.

[Jon]

Is it just me, or is the general concensus around here that all Star Wars tech is the holy grail, can be explained perfectly and isn't at all idiotic, and Star Trek tech is simply plot devised nonsense which you all laugh at?

Certainly seems to be what I'm seeing... all over

[Darth Wong]

Is it just me, or is the general concensus around here that all Star Wars tech is the holy grail, can be explained perfectly and isn't at all idiotic, and Star Trek tech is simply plot devised nonsense which you all laugh at?

Certainly seems to be what I'm seeing... all over

Sort of. Star Trek tech is accepted as much as Star Wars tech is (for example, we generally don't bitch about warp drive), but Star Trek writers have the annoying characteristic of refusing to stick to their established tech. Whenever convenient, they invent some new technology (or capability for existing technology) out of thin air in order to solve a plot point or create a dilemma. That is what has made Treknology a haze of contradictions and general confusion.

Star Wars, in comparison, has some basic techs which do certain obviously identifiable things, and ... that's it. No one has ever used a hyperdrive in order to do anything but go to hyperspace. No one has ever used a blaster in order to do anything but blast things. No one has ever used a droid to do anything but its original design function, like basic utility operations (R2D2) or talking to people (C3PO).

[Jon]

Is it just me, or is the general concensus around here that all Star Wars tech is the holy grail, can be explained perfectly and isn't at all idiotic, and Star Trek tech is simply plot devised nonsense which you all laugh at?

Certainly seems to be what I'm seeing... all over

Sort of. Star Trek tech is accepted as much as Star Wars tech is (for example, we generally don't bitch about warp drive), but Star Trek writers have the annoying characteristic of refusing to stick to their established tech. Whenever convenient, they invent some new technology (or capability for existing technology) out of thin air in order to solve a plot point or create a dilemma. That is what has made Treknology a haze of contradictions and general confusion.

Yeah, I must admit, this place has changed my entire outlook on the Trekverse, I came here a hardcore fan, tried not to jump in as a defender of the Trekverse and ended up learning a thing or too.

I can't disagree, Trek, though it contains so much reference to tech etc etc, really is only best when telling stories, because it is so rife with contradiction and idiocracy I sit here laughing sometimes.

I'll be honest, I've tried to look around for holes in Star Wars, but when I come back here I find them justified in ways I can't deny, and the same can be said for critisisms of Trek.

It doesn't help that most of the trekkies here are hardcore arseholes who don't have a clue about anything but the series, and are therefore misled as the series are all over the place But then it doesn;t help that we are so restricted to ST Canon as On Screen Material, because so many silly cock ups, so much bad writing and more appear in the series, we're doomed from the start, there is no argument, really

But I won't dwell on it.