The English: Gullible or Uneducated?

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The English: Gullible or Uneducated?

Post by Nathan F »

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_b ... ory=508517
1066 and all that: how Hollywood is giving Britain a false sense of history
By Cahal Milmo

05 April 2004

The Battle of Hastings never took place and Adolf Hitler is a fictional character. Robin Hood really existed, Harold Wilson saved Britain during the Second World War and Conan the Barbarian is a bona fide figure from early Nordic history.

It might sound like the latest attempt by revisionist extremists to pervert the past but the reality is perhaps more disturbing: this is how a significant chunk of the British population, muddled by Hollywood films and unmoved by academia, sees history.

A survey of the historical knowledge of the average adult, to be published this week, has uncovered "absurd and depressing" areas of ignorance about past events, and confusion between characters from films and historical figures.

Researchers, who conducted face-to-face interviews with more than 2,000 people, found that almost a third of the population thinks the Cold War was not real and 6 per cent believeThe War of the Worlds, H G Wells's fictional account of a Martian invasion, did happen.

Some 57 per cent think King Arthur existed and 5 per cent accept that Conan the Barbarian, the warrior played by Arnold Schwarzenegger in a 1982 film, used to stalk the planet for real. Almost one in two believe William Wallace, the 13th-century Scottish resistance leader played by Mel Gibson in his film Braveheart, was invented for the silver screen.

The study raised new questions about the teaching of history after it found that 11 per cent of the British population believed Hitler did not exist and 9 per cent said Winston Churchill was fictional. A further 33 per cent believed Mussolini was not a real historical figure.

Lord Janner of Braunstone, the chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust, said: "Such findings show that in our schools we are not conveying sufficiently the recent past - a past in which many of us lived and so many people died.

"If we are to prevent the return of Hitlerism in our present or future, we have to know what happened in the lifetimes of so many of us.

"It is a terrible indictment of the level of knowledge of the general population."

The detractors of the survey's findings blamed Hollywood and television, which have gained a reputation for skewing historical events to fit audience profiles and lift profit margins.

The film U-571, starring Harvey Keitel and Jon Bon Jovi, sparked fury in Britain four years ago when it told how American servicemen altered the course of the Second World War by capturing the Enigma code machine from a German U-boat. In fact, it was British and Canadian sailors who captured the machine in May 1941, before the US had entered the war.

The survey of 2,069 adults aged 16 or over was conducted for Blenheim Palace to mark the 300th anniversary of the Battle of Blenheim.

Some 27 per cent of people interviewed thought Robin Hood, whose story has been featured in films by directors such as Kevin Costner and Mel Brooks, existed whereas 42 per cent believed Mel Gibson's Braveheart was an invention. More than 60 thought the Battle of Helms Deep in the Lord of the Rings trilogy actually took place.

Michael Wood, the historian, said the "dumbing-down" trend was damaging people's knowledge of the past.

He said: "If you don't give an audience a clear idea of how we know things, I believe this is a problem. Hollywood distorts history the whole time and once you get that far down the line it's not history, it's entertainment.

"History is there to give value to the present as well as to entertain. You do diminish it if you take the mickey out of it in an attempt to make it 'accessible'."

More than a quarter of people do not know in which century the Great War took place and 57 per cent believe that the Battle of the Bulge, the Nazi counter-offensive in the Ardennes in 1945, never happened.

A further 53 per cent think the military leader who lead British troops at Waterloo was Lord Nelson whereas a quarter think the admiral's fatal triumph at the Battle of Trafalgar did not take place. Nearly one in five believe Harold Wilson, not Winston Churchill, was Prime Minister during the Second World War.

John Hoy, the chief executive of Blenheim Palace, said history had become boring. He said: "People associate history with dry and dusty dates and facts. Once they realise that history is about people, the way we used to live and the way we live now, it becomes more relevant and more exciting."

Others pointed to the popularity of history programmes. Francis Robinson, the senior vice principal of Royal Holloway, University of London, said the delivery of history to a wider audience was a worthy goal.

He said: "I have no problem with using different media to get across the message to different sections of the audience. There is always a chance of misrepresentation, but you have to weigh up that against the broader good of encouraging more people's interest."

But Andrew Roberts, the right-wing historian, said: "We have abandoned the teaching of history according to dates and context - if you don't know that the Tudors came before the Stuarts then you can't understand anything of that period.

"Within a generation we are going to lose our national memory and for Britain, which has such a unique and complex history, that is a complete tragedy."

Sstranger than fiction: Disraeli, Hitler and the Cold War

Real people that some believe never existed
Ethelred the Unready King of England 978 to 1016 - 63 per cent
William Wallace 13th-century Scottish hero - 42 per cent
Benjamin Disraeli Prime minister and founder of the modern Tory party - 40 per cent
Genghis Khan, Mongol conqueror - 38 per cent
Benito Mussolini, Fascist dictator, 33 per cent
Adolf Hitler - 11 per cent
Winston Churchill - 9 per cent

Real events some people believe never took place
Battle of the Bulge 52 per cent
Battle of Little Big Horn Scene of Custer's last stand - 48 per cent
Hundred Years' War 44 per cent
Cold War - 32 per cent
Battle of Hastings, 15 per cent

Fictional characters who we believe were real
King Arthur , mythical monarch of the Round Table - 57 per cent
Robin Hood - 27 per cent
Conan the Barbarian - 5 per cent
Richard Sharpe , fictional cad and warrior - 3 per cent
Edmund Blackadder - 1 per cent
Xena Warrior Princess - 1 per cent

Fictional events that we believe did take place
War of the Worlds , Martian invasion - 6 per cent
Battle of Helms Deep , Rings Trilogy - The Two Towers - 3 per cent
Battle of Endor , The Return of the Jedi - 2 per cent
Planet of the Apes , the apes rule Earth - 1 per cent
Battlestar Galactica , the defeat of humanity by cyborgs - 1 per cent
That's just bad...

I honestly would hate to see what the stats for the US are.
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Post by Joe »

This is really hard to swallow. I hope it isn't true.
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Post by Gandalf »

There's no way people could be that silly.

I bet a lot of it's just people playing with the surveyors.
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Post by Nathan F »

Gandalf wrote:There's no way people could be that silly.

I bet a lot of it's just people playing with the surveyors.
One would hope...
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Post by El Moose Monstero »

I don't believe this, in school, we have nazism and the second world war drummed into us, no school child in the UK will not know of Hitler and Churchill, certainly UK history classes spend less time on pre 1900 stuff these days, with the focus being on things such as the Russian and Nazi histories, Cold War and civil rights stuff, (at least with my exam board), but I think the claims of losing national memory within a decade are, to be frank, bollocks.

Certainly the point about not focusing on dates as much any more is true, but only in the context of realising that getting people to remember a bunch of dates doesnt accomplish anything, placing more emphasis on knowing the rough order of things and how one thing affected another rather than knowing that such a thing happened on this exact date.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

I cannot possibly be expected to believe that a measurable percentage of people actually, honestly believe, that the Battle of Endor actually happened. Impossible. I will not accept it.

However, some of the other stuff (Disraeli, Little Big Horn, William Wallace) I can believe. Also, I can understand not knowing who Ethelred the Unready was.
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Post by Sarevok »

Some of the questions surprised me. I also believed that King Arthur and Robin Hood really existed.
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Post by El Moose Monstero »

HemlockGrey wrote:I cannot possibly be expected to believe that a measurable percentage of people actually, honestly believe, that the Battle of Endor actually happened. Impossible. I will not accept it.

However, some of the other stuff (Disraeli, Little Big Horn, William Wallace) I can believe. Also, I can understand not knowing who Ethelred the Unready was.
I imagine the Ethelred the Unready thing was thought by most to be too silly to be a real name, and I can only assume that the Battle of Endor stuff was just asked as the name of a battle. But I think the key word in all of this is the face-to-face nature of the interview, I mean, if someone hasnt seen Star Wars (there are those, I know people who don't know what a lightsaber is), then being given a battle called Endor might not seem to implausible, but I think some of the silly answers would have been people seeing how much they could actually pull off with a straight face.
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Post by kojikun »

There is no way.. just no possible way..
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Post by MarkIX »

But Andrew Roberts, the right-wing historian, said:
Everyone else is introduced as Mr so-and-so of somewhere-or-other this guy is "the right wing historian" what is that trying to say.
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Post by SirNitram »

Statistics also show a majority of the US beleives the world is less than ten thousand years old. At least Britain has less of those....
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Post by Frank Hipper »

Sorry, but I must point and laugh now.

*points across Atlantic, and laughs ass off*

Fuck the overplayed poll about Americans and Creationism, 52% of the people polled believe the Battle of the Bulge is fictitious!

*dies, laughing*

:lol:
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Post by Darth Wong »

Actually, it's much worse to believe in young-Earth creationism than it is to believe the Battle of the Bulge was fictitious. One need only be unfamiliar with the details of the war to think the latter, but one need be completely unfamiliar with both science and basic logic in order to think the former.

There is a big difference between historical information and basic logic in terms of importance with respect to basic intelligence.

Having said that, I think the poll is probably bullshit. There's no way that a significant fraction of the British population thinks Battlestar Galactica actually happened. They probably polled a bunch of drunks coming out of a pub or something.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Probably a bunch of university students having the pollster on...
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Darth Wong wrote:Actually, it's much worse to believe in young-Earth creationism than it is to believe the Battle of the Bulge was fictitious. One need only be unfamiliar with the details of the war to think the latter, but one need be completely unfamiliar with both science and basic logic in order to think the former.

There is a big difference between historical information and basic logic in terms of importance with respect to basic intelligence.
I'd say that lack of belief in something that's happened in living memory is worse than belief in something that is supposed to have happened before human beings existed and was therefore never observed. (It defies incontrovertible evidence that the event did, in fact, happen, as opposed to ignoring an event that has no tangible evidence or material witnesses either way.) Just my opinion, though both are pretty far up there on the Stupidometer.
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Post by Tsyroc »

Fictional characters who we believe were real
King Arthur , mythical monarch of the Round Table - 57 per cent
Robin Hood - 27 per cent
These two I can understand because people are always coming up with the real people behind the legends. So, how real is real and how much does the story have to change to not be real?
Conan the Barbarian - 5 per cent
Richard Sharpe , fictional cad and warrior - 3 per cent
Edmund Blackadder - 1 per cent
Xena Warrior Princess - 1 per cent
These I all got a kick out of. The Conan bit is something that Marvel Comics has had in it's "pre-history" for awhile now so I'm not to shocked that the percentage is a little higher than the more recent ficitonal characters. The books themselves try to put it in Europe before the sinking of Atlantis (which is most likely a legend possibly based on a real event).

Sharpe I could believe as a real person but I'd like to know how so many stories about him exist.

The other two are just funny, especially Xena. I hope those people who believe Xena was real aren't getting the rest of their history from that show. :D
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Post by Frank Hipper »

Darth Wong wrote:Actually, it's much worse to believe in young-Earth creationism than it is to believe the Battle of the Bulge was fictitious. One need only be unfamiliar with the details of the war to think the latter, but one need be completely unfamiliar with both science and basic logic in order to think the former.
Something I've always wondered about that is how many people in the YEC poll answered yes because they were unwilling to state a disbelief in the bible.

My mother, for instance, is normally a rational person and does not believe in creationism or take the bible literally,yet she'll on ocasion defend it to the point of my horrified annoyance for no other reason than a lifetime of habit.

People often claim belief in things by rote, without even stopping to consider what the question is.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Rogue 9 wrote:I'd say that lack of belief in something that's happened in living memory is worse than belief in something that is supposed to have happened before human beings existed and was therefore never observed.
It's not about belief. It's about logic. What part of that point escaped your comprehension?
(It defies incontrovertible evidence that the event did, in fact, happen, as opposed to ignoring an event that has no tangible evidence or material witnesses either way.) Just my opinion, though both are pretty far up there on the Stupidometer.
The Battle of the Bulge, to be brutally honest, is a matter of trivia: memorizing the tactical details of wars is of much less importance to the average person than understanding the geopolitical dynamics which led to the war in the first place. Young-Earth Creationism, on the other hand, betrays a fundamental mindset of idiocy and appeal to authority.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

*Shrus* Sorry. I'm something of a history buff, so historical events strike me as more commonly known than they really are sometimes... I'll just go shut up now.
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Re: The English: Gullible or Uneducated?

Post by Bob McDob »

Nathan F wrote: Fictional events that we believe did take place
War of the Worlds , Martian invasion - 6 per cent
Battle of Helms Deep , Rings Trilogy - The Two Towers - 3 per cent
Battle of Endor , The Return of the Jedi - 2 per cent
Planet of the Apes , the apes rule Earth - 1 per cent
Battlestar Galactica , the defeat of humanity by cyborgs - 1 per cent
Hehe, I needed that laugh.

And I call bullshit on the article, obviously.
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Post by Companion Cube »

I move that the title of this thread be changed to: The English: Taking The Piss. :P
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Post by Bob McDob »

I wonder if Battlestar Galactica refers to the original or Neon Battlestar Galactica Plus.
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Post by Crown »

Guys this is the UK ... the only other country to out-poll Australia in their last census as having faith in the 'Jedi' religion.

This is such a bunch of bullshit that I can't believe that it has been posted here ... not knowing or believing in Churchill, the guy there is a documentary on about on the BBC every other week, but believing in Battlestar Galactica?

Bullshit.
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Post by TheDarkling »

6% of British people believe Britain was invaded by Martians? I somehow doubt that.
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Post by Sharp-kun »

I get the feeling this poll wasn't taken seriously :)

I wonder what the results would be if it was done in the US?
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