Walper Defends Murderous Snowflake

[SirNitram]

You're correct in your statement about my belief that the entity did not recognize humans as sentient lifeforms. I giving the entity the benefit of the doubt.

This isn't a legal proceeding. If you want your claim to be taken seriously, you must follow the rules of honest debate. Is this simple concept so completely beyond your feeble mental grasp?

I've suggested the entity may not have known humans were sentient lifeforms. Please explain why this speculation is, by your viewpoint, not possible.

Evading the point again? If you want this to be considered you must support it.

In my opinion, it was immoral to kill the entity prematurely while communication was being attempted and success seemed likely. Had communication failed or the entity became a imminent threat I would've suggested killing it myself.

So you find it immoral to presume the Entity had the reasoning capabilities of a moderately intelligent person. Of course.

So you're suggesting the entity would be thinking from a human perspective with human experience and knowledge?

You should stop putting words in people's mouths, Robert, and start presenting evidence for your assertions.

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

From what I gather SirNitram, our disagreement is thus:

You: "Kill it. It's a threat to humanity."

Me: "We have a safe opportunity to try and communicate with the entity and we seem to be making progress. We have reason to believe is possesses intelligence. Let's try that first. If unsuccessful, kill it. It's a threat to humanity."

Simple, no?

[Darth Wong]

Robert, let me explain the problem with your logic. You are arguing that the entity was too fucking stupid to recognize that creatures which construct cities and spacecraft might be sentient,

Insects construct "cities" and other unique structures utilizing resources. This does not make them sentient.

An insect city involves no artificial or refined materials whatsoever. And since it had already communicated with a lifeform which looked exactly like these "insects", it should already suspect that they're sentient unless it's totally brainless, as I'm starting to suspect that YOU are.

As to constructing spacecraft, how would the entity know humans built them? The entity is obviously aware there are such things as artificial organisms by virtue of Lore.

... which happen to look exactly like the supposedly non-sentient creatures it's eating, and it's too stupid to suspect that they might be sentient? Bullshit. It knows perfectly well what it's doing. In case you're too fucking stupid to figure this out (and you are), it conspired with Lore to get past their defenses; how non-sentient can these beings be if you must deceive them, for fuck's sake?

Um...Mike, as I recall, the entity sought out the Enterprise after it emitted the signals they attempted to use to communicate with it. Besides, why would it be necessary for the entity to assume that the human lifeforms onboard the Enteprise are of any relation or concerned for the humans it had consumed elsewhere?

They were trying to hunt it down, and thought to try and draw it in with the signal. As I said, there is no way that this creature could be intelligent and not recognize sentience in these kinds of actions.

It clearly possessed enough intelligence for Lore to communicate with it. However, Lore is an artificial organism. The entity has no reason to assume that just because Lore was capable of sentient communication that humans must be as well.

The fact that Lore looks exactly like a human wouldn't even twig its curiosity? How fucking high is that wall of ignorance?

I'm pointing out unknowns and then others demand I submit evidence to prove they are unknown? I don't follow.

You are claiming that something is "unknown" even when irrefutable evidence has been presented that it is, in fact, quite easily known. And when faced with this evidence, you deny that it applies without providing any plausible reason other than your own obstinacy.

[SirNitram]

*snip*

From what I gather SirNitram, our disagreement is thus:

You: "Kill it. It's a threat to humanity."

Me: "We have a safe opportunity to try and communicate with the entity and we seem to be making progress. We have reason to believe is possesses intelligence. Let's try that first. If unsuccessful, kill it. It's a threat to humanity."

Simple, no?

Your ability to completely miss perfectly clear English phrases is remarkable to me. Maybe caps will make it through your shrivelled excuse for a brain.

IF YOU WANT TO HAVE YOUR ASSERTION THAT IT COULD NOT RECIGNIZE THE HUMANS IT ATE WERE SENTIENT, YOU MUST SHOW EVIDENCE TO THIS CONCLUSION. THIS IS A VERY BASIC RULE OF DEBATING.

Do I actually expect you to, after five pages of reptition, actually change your trolling? Not really. But I'll go through the motions.

If you actually present evidence towards your blind assertion, then I will rebutt it. Until then, you are simply trolling and screeching.

[Ghost Rider]

You're viewpoint seems based upon the assumption "the entity recognizes humans as sentient lifeforms that built the technology" when in fact the the only sentient lifeform it has ever been known to communicate with was an artificial one.

Amazing that this intelligent being discusses it's plans with an artifical life form that acts, talks, moves and looks like what again?

I take we have good reason to believe the entity has studied Lore's similarities to humans, and even has the capability to do so?

Hey you assumed because it knew Lore was artifical that it must just be a kindred soul...because it's mindless and just acts on instinct and oh wait...

It conspired with Lore?

Fuck must denote a significant intelligence of it and hell must mean these things aren't insects.

So exactly how does it just know Lore is friendly and never once even decided to look, compare, or anything the humans or Lore but hey it can establish complex communications with another being.

So please...show proof it knows Lore is not a product of these insects given his physical characteristics as well language capabilites.

When did I suggest the entity would know one way or the other that Lore is a product of human construction?

Because obviously your assertion that it knew Lore was artifical but hey it doesn't even presume to compare it's similarities to the insect it's devouring.

And pleae show me insects that use artifical materials to construct cities...damn those ants are an hardy breed.

[Robert Walper]

Your ability to completely miss perfectly clear English phrases is remarkable to me. Maybe caps will make it through your shrivelled excuse for a brain.

IF YOU WANT TO HAVE YOUR ASSERTION THAT IT COULD NOT RECIGNIZE THE HUMANS IT ATE WERE SENTIENT, YOU MUST SHOW EVIDENCE TO THIS CONCLUSION. THIS IS A VERY BASIC RULE OF DEBATING.

I'm not asserting or concluding the entity knew or didn't know humans were sentient(this falls under the catagory "I dont know", which I believe I've repeated several times now). Based upon that lack of knowledge, I'd have given the communications attempt a chance, particularily since it was safe to do so. I consider the act of killing a lifeform a last resort only or only done by virtue of necessity(ie: survival).

[SirNitram]

Your ability to completely miss perfectly clear English phrases is remarkable to me. Maybe caps will make it through your shrivelled excuse for a brain.

IF YOU WANT TO HAVE YOUR ASSERTION THAT IT COULD NOT RECIGNIZE THE HUMANS IT ATE WERE SENTIENT, YOU MUST SHOW EVIDENCE TO THIS CONCLUSION. THIS IS A VERY BASIC RULE OF DEBATING.

I'm not asserting or concluding the entity knew or didn't know humans were sentient(this falls under the catagory "I dont know", which I believe I've repeated several times now).

So you're really just incredibly stupid. The reasons for the Entity to realize it's prey were intelligent are all over this thread. Oh, wait, I forgot. You've deployed your Wall Of Ignorance and are just trolling.

Based upon that lack of knowledge, I'd have given the communications attempt a chance, particularily since it was safe to do so. I consider the act of killing a lifeform a last resort only or only done by virtue of necessity(ie: survival).

Whoops, it already killed a colony and would be killing the Enterprise if they weren't holding the shields at full power. Guess you're just lying again, you refuse to admit that it was a direct danger.

[Darth Wong]

All right, this is ridiculous. Robert, what would it take for you to accept that the creature was not so fucking mindless and/or stupid that it can't figure out humans are intelligent?

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

Obviously, neither of us is going to convince the other, so I'll just drop it. My opinion remains unchanged; I still think the entity was killed prematurely and possibly unnecessarily.

[SirNitram]

*snip*

Obviously, neither of us is going to convince the other, so I'll just drop it. My opinion remains unchanged; I still think the entity was killed prematurely and possibly unnecessarily.

The hallmark of a Troll: The absolute refusal to ever change their position, regardless of anything else. Thank you for finally admitting there is absolutely nothing supporting your asinine theory, though. Only took you six pages, usually you troll for, what, twelve?

[Darth Wong]

*snip*

Obviously, neither of us is going to convince the other, so I'll just drop it. My opinion remains unchanged; I still think the entity was killed prematurely and possibly unnecessarily.

Your opinion is irrelevant. The problem here is that you have constructed a deliberately unfalsifiable position, in which the creature should be assumed to hover on a delicately impossible balance between being too fucking stupid to recognize human intelligence and too intelligent to treat like a man-eating predator animal. Your only defense of this logically inconsistent argument is to simply argue that no one can prove to your satisfaction that this balance does not work, hence you appeal to this ignorance in order to assume that it does work.

[Robert Walper]

All right, this is ridiculous. Robert, what would it take for you to accept that the creature was not so fucking mindless and/or stupid that it can't figure out humans are intelligent?

I wasn't attempting to suggest the entity was either stupid or mindless. Without the ability to communicate with the humans or be even aware of the human capacity to communicate, the entity can only judge actions. And as far as I tell, there are no actions the entity couldn't have attributed to natural "insect-like" behavior or artificial organisms being responsible for.

[Darth Wong]

All right, this is ridiculous. Robert, what would it take for you to accept that the creature was not so fucking mindless and/or stupid that it can't figure out humans are intelligent?

I wasn't attempting to suggest the entity was either stupid or mindless. Without the ability to communicate with the humans or be even aware of the human capacity to communicate, the entity can only judge actions. And as far as I tell, there are no actions the entity couldn't have attributed to natural "insect-like" behavior or artificial organisms being responsible for.

For the second time, insects cannot REFINE METALS, dumb-fuck! Humans construct cities and spacecraft in a wholly artificial manner and exhibit comprehension of geometric principles that no insect does. Unless the creature is virtually mindless, it DOES know that humans are sentient! What part of this are you too goddamned stupid to understand?

[Robert Walper]

All right, this is ridiculous. Robert, what would it take for you to accept that the creature was not so fucking mindless and/or stupid that it can't figure out humans are intelligent?

I wasn't attempting to suggest the entity was either stupid or mindless. Without the ability to communicate with the humans or be even aware of the human capacity to communicate, the entity can only judge actions. And as far as I tell, there are no actions the entity couldn't have attributed to natural "insect-like" behavior or artificial organisms being responsible for.

For the second time, insects cannot REFINE METALS, dumb-fuck!

And how do we know the entity is even aware of concepts like refining metals? What if the entity actually percieve artificial objects as "natural" in nature? Unless we're going to assume it sat around watching a colony or starship get built...

Humans construct cities and spacecraft in a wholly artificial manner and exhibit comprehension of geometric principles that no insect does. Unless the creature is virtually mindless, it DOES know that humans are sentient! What part of this are you too goddamned stupid to understand?

Mike, why is it assumed the entity knows that humans built said structures? Insects infest households, vehicles and many other man made objects everywhere, but we know better than to jump to the conclusion insects built them, despite said structures being clearly intelligent in design.

[SirNitram]

I wasn't attempting to suggest the entity was either stupid or mindless. Without the ability to communicate with the humans or be even aware of the human capacity to communicate, the entity can only judge actions. And as far as I tell, there are no actions the entity couldn't have attributed to natural "insect-like" behavior or artificial organisms being responsible for.

For the second time, insects cannot REFINE METALS, dumb-fuck!

And how do we know the entity is even aware of concepts like refining metals? What if the entity actually percieve artificial objects as "natural" in nature? Unless we're going to assume it sat around watching a colony or starship get built...

And the stupidity turns in on itself further. If it can't perceive such, how would it know Lore is different from the Colonists? You're fitting the literal definition of an asshat.

[Patrick Degan]

Mike, why is it assumed the entity knows that humans built said structures? Insects infest households, vehicles and many other man made objects everywhere, but we know better than to jump to the conclusion insects built them, despite said structures being clearly intelligent in design.

Because of this, perhaps:

LORE (whirling to Tasha) Open hailing frequencies!

(as she hits switch)

Crystal Form, I identify myself as "Data," advising you to stop your attack. The humans here are powerful, capable of injuring or even destroying you.

Lore identified humans for the Crystalline Entity. It knows what they are, that they are intelligent lifeforms, builders. And it kept killing and eating them anyway.

[Darth Wong]

Mike, why is it assumed the entity knows that humans built said structures? Insects infest households, vehicles and many other man made objects everywhere, but we know better than to jump to the conclusion insects built them, despite said structures being clearly intelligent in design.

Maybe because the insects aren't in control of the fucking vehicles, dumb-ass. If an insect could DRIVE the car, I'd be concerned.

[SirNitram]

Mike, why is it assumed the entity knows that humans built said structures? Insects infest households, vehicles and many other man made objects everywhere, but we know better than to jump to the conclusion insects built them, despite said structures being clearly intelligent in design.

Maybe because the insects aren't in control of the fucking vehicles, dumb-ass. If an insect could DRIVE the car, I'd be concerned.

Not only would you have to worry about the logistics of working the mechanics, but it's like millions of women drivers all at once...

[Robert Walper]

Mike, why is it assumed the entity knows that humans built said structures? Insects infest households, vehicles and many other man made objects everywhere, but we know better than to jump to the conclusion insects built them, despite said structures being clearly intelligent in design.

Because of this, perhaps:

LORE (whirling to Tasha) Open hailing frequencies!

(as she hits switch)

Crystal Form, I identify myself as "Data," advising you to stop your attack. The humans here are powerful, capable of injuring or even destroying you.

Admittedly, I didn't recall this specific "communication" on behalf of Lore while masquerading as Data. However, I find this brings up more questions then answers. A simple spoken advisory and warning, in English, the entity understands? There could not have been translation via the communications system since this was obviously lacking in the future episode concerning said entity. And yet the rest of the crew is incapable of at least talking to the entity, even if they are unable to understand it's responses? Given this apparent contradiction, I'd theorize the entity may have only recognized Lore's vocalization as opposed to actually understanding his message. Otherwise any other person speaking via a similar communications sytem should have been understood by the entity, even if they did not understand it's response. Lore did make it a point to leave the bridge and re-initiate communcations with the entity in the cargo bay, at which point he could've employed whatever translation knowledge he had acquired in order to communicate with it initally.

Lore identified humans for the Crystalline Entity. It knows what they are, that they are intelligent lifeforms, builders.

I should point out that Lore's communication, if the entity did in fact understand it(something I find questionable), did not imply or indicate that humans were either intelligent or the builders of the Enterprise. Merely that they were "dangerous" and capable of harming or killing the entity. Those attributes do not require sentience, which is the point under debate.

[Robert Walper]

Mike, why is it assumed the entity knows that humans built said structures? Insects infest households, vehicles and many other man made objects everywhere, but we know better than to jump to the conclusion insects built them, despite said structures being clearly intelligent in design.

Maybe because the insects aren't in control of the fucking vehicles, dumb-ass. If an insect could DRIVE the car, I'd be concerned.

Mike, with all due respect, might I suggest you do not employ your own knowledge as default knowledge the entity possesses. You're making the assumption the entity knows the humans are operating the Enterprise as opposed simply being on it. Pointing back to my insect example, I was not implying the insects were driving the vehicles, merely that they were present. A moving vehicle, making course corrections and even intelligent movements, does not imply the insects present upon or in that vehicle must be intelligent or sentient. The entity could easily be argued as perceiving the starship Enterprise as a seperate lifeform itself.

[Isolder74]

Before that Lore called the thing and told it

I will be using the identity of Data. If someone called Data talks to you that will be me. They have defenses that will stop you from eaing them I will come up with a way to get around them. When I do I will call you with a indication of it.

Then we get the complicated plan to show off in that we drop shields to beam out a target then destroy it to show great power to impresse the thing at which point it would have eat everyone.

Lore and Data appear to at least have some biological components

TNG Season 1, Ep# 14: "Datalore"

LORE: Lesson one in becoming more human, my brother. You must observe all human customs.
DATA: Champagne?
LORE: An ancient ritual, still practiced when they celebrate events of importance. My brother, I toast our discovery of each other. May it fill our lives with new meaning.
DATA: I have some doubts about the value of human ... customs in this ... my ... brother ... (he begins to slump)
LORE: And let us toast also ...
DATA: Brother ... help me ...
(Data collapses from the effect of the drug in his champagne glass).

Computers and Androids: Data can be drugged. This is actually the second incident in which exposure to a particular chemical caused debilitating effects on him (the first being "The Naked Now")

If Data can be drugged they both have enough living matter on board For the entity to ba able tell that Lore was built by Humans.

Two strikes against you.

1: It could comunicate with Lore and he could call it on command.

2: It has been shown to be able to conspire with Lore in order to eat Humans.

So we have shown it already knows what we are and that we are quite capable of talking with if it wanted us to.

Sounds to me like the thing was just stalling for time to come up with a way to get the Enterprise to drop its guard.

[General Zod]

If Data can be drugged they both have enough living matter on board For the entity to ba able tell that Lore was built by Humans.

why does data -or- lore have to have living matter ? it may have simply been a chemical designed to cause a reaction to certain circuits lore knew would affect data just enough to shut him down.

[DaveJB]

Now that I think about it, Data (and presumably Lore) does have some organic components - he said that he did in The Naked Now, and it allowed him to be affected by the virus which turned people into drunks.

However, since he survived the coolant leak in FC, I assume that his organic components aren't critical to his/their operation.

[Darth Wong]

This last exchange, particularly his response to Patrick Degan's quote, confirms that NO EVIDENCE will break down Walper's idiot wall of ignorance. If you have to trick a non-sentient life form into lowering its defenses, it's pretty fucking obvious that it's intelligent. And this "maybe there are other kinds of intelligence which aren't like human intelligence" appeal to ignorance is just fucking tiresome.

[Robert Walper]

This last exchange, particularly his response to Patrick Degan's quote, confirms that NO EVIDENCE will break down Walper's idiot wall of ignorance. If you have to trick a non-sentient life form into lowering its defenses, it's pretty fucking obvious that it's intelligent. And this "maybe there are other kinds of intelligence which aren't like human intelligence" appeal to ignorance is just fucking tiresome.

I'll just drop the arguement then. It's not my intention to piss anyone off, I just disagree. Perhaps if I get a chance to review the episodes in question sometime in the future, my perspective will change.