i've been hearing alot about impeaching bush lately

[MKSheppard]

JFK was elected well before Clinton. Does Kerry's middle name begin with an "F"?

*slaps Durandal with Mk 2 CLUESTICK made out of depleted uranium*

Kerry's middle name is Forbes.

Specifically, what makes him appreciably worse than Bush?

His entire Vietnam War era record. While Clinton just dodged the draft,
Bush smoked crack in a F-102 unit, Kerry went to Vietnam, and got out
after earning three purple hearts in very questionable circumstances,
total time in country = four months, amount of time hospitalized for
those purple hearts = virtually zero.

And once he was discharged from the Navy, guess what? He goes
before Senate committees and makes up bullshit stories about how
he saw people doped out of their minds, etc, war atrocities, etc etc.

Lets not forget how he was essentially a major player in Vietnam
Veterans Against the War, a group that actually met with the
North Vietnamese negotiators in Paris.

Clinton may have been a draft dodging pot smoker, and Bush a cracksmoking ANG pilot, but neither of them turned around and
stabbed our soldiers in their backs, like Kerry did.

[MKSheppard]

and Bush a cracksmoking ANG pilot

Correction, crack snorting ANG pilot mainlining
the white snow.

[Hamel]

His entire Vietnam War era record. While Clinton just dodged the draft,

Deferment, iirc

Bush smoked crack in a F-102 unit,

By an act of magical circumstance, he jumped up the list with sucky 5 dollah test scores, then played hooky a number of times.

Kerry went to Vietnam, and got out
after earning three purple hearts in very questionable circumstances,
total time in country = four months, amount of time hospitalized for
those purple hearts = virtually zero.

Questionable?

And once he was discharged from the Navy, guess what? He goes
before Senate committees and makes up bullshit stories about how
he saw people doped out of their minds, etc, war atrocities, etc etc.

You're positive they're made up?

Lets not forget how he was essentially a major player in Vietnam
Veterans Against the War, a group that actually met with the
North Vietnamese negotiators in Paris.

Evidence of collaboration?

Clinton may have been a draft dodging pot smoker, and Bush a cracksmoking ANG pilot, but neither of them turned around and
stabbed our soldiers in their backs, like Kerry did.

Maybe Kerry was telling the truth and it was a bit too unpleasant for you to swallow?

[Durandal]

His entire Vietnam War era record. While Clinton just dodged the draft, Bush smoked crack in a F-102 unit, Kerry went to Vietnam, and got out after earning three purple hearts in very questionable circumstances, total time in country = four months, amount of time hospitalized for those purple hearts = virtually zero.

At least he served.

And once he was discharged from the Navy, guess what? He goes before Senate committees and makes up bullshit stories about how he saw people doped out of their minds, etc, war atrocities, etc etc.

So it was totally impossible for him to have seen anything horrible in that pit in the four months he was there?

Lets not forget how he was essentially a major player in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, a group that actually met with the North Vietnamese negotiators in Paris.

And this was worse than continuing to throw troops in there?

Clinton may have been a draft dodging pot smoker, and Bush a cracksmoking ANG pilot, but neither of them turned around and stabbed our soldiers in their backs, like Kerry did.

Bush has been treating our soldiers like shit.

[Vympel]

And once he was discharged from the Navy, guess what? He goes
before Senate committees and makes up bullshit stories about how
he saw people doped out of their minds, etc, war atrocities, etc etc.

Made up stories? Ever heard of My Lai? American troops in Vietnam were not saints, Shep. Some of them were no better than Germans in Russia in WW2.

[Rogue 9]

Questionable?

You don't earn three Purple Hearts without spending time in the hospital for it. Three combat wounds and no sign of any ill effects from them? What?

[Joe]

Atrocities did occur in Vietnam, lots of them, but I don't believe there's any proof they occured on nearly the level described by Kerry in his testimony before the Foreign Relations Committee.

[Illuminatus Primus]

NO, It means he has his fucking reasons. who the fuck are you to tell someone how to think? Not everyone has the same fucking enlightend thought processes as the brilliant and mighty Keevan-Durandal-Vympel trifecta of self rightious wisdom.

Wow, never thought I'd see such a pattern on SD.net of people trying to weasel away from justifying their position. No one asked him to vote for Kerry. They asked him to fucking JUSTIFY HIS POSITION.

No position is about critique. None.

[Vympel]

Atrocities did occur in Vietnam, lots of them, but I don't believe there's any proof they occured on nearly the level described by Kerry in his testimony before the Foreign Relations Committee.

It's not that implausible:

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

One can also add strafing unidentified peasants from gunships, which was personally attested to by Colin Powell in his book about Vietnam:

If a helo [helicopter]spotted a peasant in black pajamas who looked remotely suspicious, a possible MAM [military age male] the pilot would circle and fire in front of him. If he moved, his movement was judged evidence of hostile intent, and the next burst was not in front, but at him. Brutal? Maybe so.

Of course, he condoned a brilliant practice like this. Would you stand still if a gunship fired at you?

[Cornelius]

here isn't a WTF in the world big enough to adequately express myself.

First, what the fuck does it matter if the person you vote for doesn't win?

Second:
a) In the 2000 election, Gore actually had a higher proposed military budget than Bush.
b) Bush has done a lot to screw over the veterans

How can you say Bush "supports the military" in any way except bullshit rhetoric?

Yea. I vote for those whom will win. I don't like to throw my vote away like some people do. It matter's to me.

That is why i said I don't know for whom I will vote. Whomever has the best military plan will get my vote.

Is that bad? Does that mean I will vote Bush if Kerry has a better one? No.

[Cornelius]

Actually, there are a lot of things I look for, but what is the use if they have little chance of winning?

[Rogue 9]

Actually, there are a lot of things I look for, but what is the use if they have little chance of winning?

At least you've made a statement even if your boy doesn't win. I'm an independent and usually vote that way when I can't see enough good in either main party candidate. Just my luck that my first Presidential election is one of those years. >_< I'm definitely going to vote independent this time around. (No, I'm not voting for Nader. In the middle of third party research right now.) In any case, its better than not voting at all.

[Darth Wong]

I like people [like Bush] who support the military.

Ahem, your spelling is wrong. Let me correct it for you:

"George Bush supports militarists".

There, that's better.

[Chardok]

Actually, there are a lot of things I look for, but what is the use if they have little chance of winning?

That is the dumbest fucking thing i've ever heard. Your vote is your VOICE. You vote on the grounds of a military plan? What about domestic issues? Economis policy both at home and abroad? Abortion, civil rights, etc. etc. etc.?

Even if you don't Think they can win, your vote makes you HEARDI think the florida debacle of 2000 shows that every single vote counts. And people like you will piss away your chance at being heard simply based on who you thikn will win? It is truly sad the depths to which some american voters have sunk. I have very little respect for you, you Gutless worm. The only people I have less repect for are those who say they like bush and will vote for bush but when asked why point at Clinton or say nothing at all *Bush polls* COUGH COUGH

[Joe]

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

Kerry was citing the Winter Soldiers Investigation. The whole thing was a fucking fraud.

[SirNitram]

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

Kerry was citing the Winter Soldiers Investigation. The whole thing was a fucking fraud.

And the evidence leading to the conclusion this Investigation was a fraud is....

[Vympel]

And the evidence leading to the conclusion this Investigation was a fraud is....

From what I gather, there is none, but it's somewhat of a Vietnam article of faith among the right, right up there with the Vietnam "stab in the back" myth.

Oh, and by evidence I don't mean mere accusations without a shred of proof saying that the WSI was a fraud by the civilian members of VVAW.

[Joe]

The WSI was largely inspired by the work of Mark Lane, a lawyer who wrote a book called Conversations with Americans, supposedly an account of a series of interviews with Vietnam vets describing the various atrocities they saw/committed. However, a journalist named Neil Sheehan later proved that many of the accounts in the book were inaccurate, with some of the soldiers never having seen duty in Vietnam at all and another one of them eventually being committed to a mental hospital after being accused of murder. He even had one soldier - the insane one - claiming that his father was an ex-Nazi soldier serving as a colonel in the U.S. Army during Vietnam.

Lane was also one of the chief organizers of the WSI investigations.

Historian Guenter Lewy claims in his book America in Vietnam that a naval investigation uncovered similar inaccuracies and fabrications during the Winter Soldiers Hearings:

Many of the veterans, though assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities. A black Marine who agreed to be interviewed was unable to provide details of the outrages he had described at the hearing, but he called the Vietnam War "one huge atrocity" and "a racist plot." He admitted that the question of atrocities had not occurred to him while he was in Vietnam, and that he had been assisted in the preparation of his testimony by a member of the Nation of Islam. But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit. One of them had never been to Detroit in all his life. He did not know, he stated, who might have used his name. Incidents similar to some of those described at the VVAW hearing undoubtedly did occur. We know that hamlets were destroyed, prisoners tortured, and corpses mutilated. Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations. In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a "criminal policy." The VVAW's use of fake witnesses and the failure to cooperate with military authorities and to provide crucial details of the incidents further cast serious doubt on the professed desire to serve the causes of justice and humanity. It is more likely that this inquiry, like others earlier and later, had primarily political motives and goals.

Now, to be fair, paperwork on this investigation has been lost (Lewy claims to never have received a copy, he only saw it/was briefed on it). But the information reported here is not inconsistent with Lane's earlier behavior. Whether Lewy is telling the truth or not, the fact that Mark Lane, a proven fraud, had so much to do with the hearings casts enormous doubt on their credibility.

[Vympel]

The WSI was largely inspired by the work of Mark Lane, a lawyer who wrote a book called Conversations with Americans, supposedly an account of a series of interviews with Vietnam vets describing the various atrocities they saw/committed. However, a journalist named Neil Sheehan later proved that many of the accounts in the book were inaccurate, with some of the soldiers never having seen duty in Vietnam at all and another one of them eventually being committed to a mental hospital after being accused of murder. He even had one soldier - the insane one - claiming that his father was an ex-Nazi soldier serving as a colonel in the U.S. Army during Vietnam.

Lane was also one of the chief organizers of the WSI investigations.

Bait and switch. The book is not the WSI.

Many of the veterans, though assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities. A black Marine who agreed to be interviewed was unable to provide details of the outrages he had described at the hearing, but he called the Vietnam War "one huge atrocity" and "a racist plot." He admitted that the question of atrocities had not occurred to him while he was in Vietnam, and that he had been assisted in the preparation of his testimony by a member of the Nation of Islam. But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit. One of them had never been to Detroit in all his life. He did not know, he stated, who might have used his name. Incidents similar to some of those described at the VVAW hearing undoubtedly did occur. We know that hamlets were destroyed, prisoners tortured, and corpses mutilated. Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations. In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a "criminal policy."

Strawman. Kerry's statement says nothing of a "criminal policy". And what kind of Orwellian nonsense is this:

"we know that atrocities were committed, but they either didn't violate the law of war ...."

How the fuck is that possible?

The VVAW's use of fake witnesses and the failure to cooperate with military authorities and to provide crucial details of the incidents further cast serious doubt on the professed desire to serve the causes of justice and humanity. It is more likely that this inquiry, like others earlier and later, had primarily political motives and goals.

Who? Do you know? The list is right here, it should be a piece of piss to find out who the fraudulent witnesses were, if there really were any

Now, to be fair, paperwork on this investigation has been lost (Lewy claims to never have received a copy, he only saw it/was briefed on it). But the information reported here is not inconsistent with Lane's earlier behavior. Whether Lewy is telling the truth or not, the fact that Mark Lane, a proven fraud, had so much to do with the hearings casts enormous doubt on their credibility.

So a book inspired congressional hearings, therefore that casts doubt on the hearings? This entire line of reasoning is a retarded bait and switch, Joe.

[The Kernel]

Yea. I vote for those whom will win. I don't like to throw my vote away like some people do. It matter's to me.

Wait a second. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't voting for someone who is going to win anyways be throwing away your vote? Voting against that person would not be throwing away your vote however.

[Darth Wong]

Yea. I vote for those whom will win. I don't like to throw my vote away like some people do. It matter's to me.

Wait a second. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't voting for someone who is going to win anyways be throwing away your vote? Voting against that person would not be throwing away your vote however.

It would be a rather gigantic understatement to say that "I vote for whoever's leading in the polls" is an unprincipled position. More likely it's a clumsy rationalization for his decision to vote for Bush: a decision which is really motivated by something else.

[Keevan_Colton]

Yea. I vote for those whom will win. I don't like to throw my vote away like some people do. It matter's to me.

Wait a second. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't voting for someone who is going to win anyways be throwing away your vote? Voting against that person would not be throwing away your vote however.

It would be a rather gigantic understatement to say that "I vote for whoever's leading in the polls" is an unprincipled position. More likely it's a clumsy rationalization for his decision to vote for Bush: a decision which is really motivated by something else.

Either that or he cant grasp the difference between placing a bet and placing a vote....in which case he really shouldnt be doing either.

[Durandal]

JFK was elected well before Clinton. Does Kerry's middle name begin with an "F"?

*slaps Durandal with Mk 2 CLUESTICK made out of depleted uranium*

Kerry's middle name is Forbes.

Boy, am I lucky the Mk 3 CLUESTICK was part of the assault weapons ban.