Wal-Mart Employees Says No To Union

[Darth Wong]

I didn't mean to give the impression that unionized companies are more honest than nonunion companies. What I *meant* to say was that management is more responsible for for whatever befalls the company than the union could ever be.

Of course. Bad management is endemic throughout industry, unfortunately. I still remember seeing an article written by a management training consultant who posed the following question to 50 trainees (all of whom were already experienced managers):

You land the most important project in the company. It is so important that there is a blank cheque for overtime. Do you:

1. Explain the situation to your employees in a meeting, and let them get to work?
2. Warn your employees that their jobs are on the line?
3. Spend every day from now until the deadline hovering over your employees to make sure they work hard and don't waste time screwing around or talking amongst each other?

Some 80% of them picked #3. Not one of them picked #1

And I've seen a lot of spectacular management fuckups which were blamed on labour. One idiot brought in a completely new plant process and productivity/quality immediately plummeted. Instead of conceding that perhaps his new process was obviously not working, he held a meeting to warn the employees that he was onto their little conspiratorial scheme of deliberately slacking off on the job in order to make his new scheme fail, and he fired a half-dozen employees in order to "send a message" that this attitude would not be tolerated.

Unions can be just as corrupt as any other organization, but not all unions are corrupt. Given the choice, in my current occupation, I'd rather be union.

The problem with unions is that you exchange one problem for another. It is unjust for management to run roughshod over employees and make the employees pay for their own mistakes (which happens quite often in non-union shops), but it is equally unjust for compensation and job security to be based almost entirely on seniority with no regard for actual job skills or competence (which happens quite often in union shops).

[The Yosemite Bear]

one more reason why I am glad I work in a union shop.

I think only McD's has a worse record of shutting down places that unionize (and they been at it longer), but Walmart is like blatantly illegal, not giving employee's medical protection, sex discrimination, random probes, etc.

Not to mention mishandling waste, not building proper run off/storm drains on their own parkinglots (has caused serious flooding in some communities), I'm suprised they haven't been caught dumping the photolab chemicals into the sink.

[Tribun]

After reading all this I'm glad that Wal-Mart is only a dwarf here in germany with no real chances to grow.....

[Bob McDob]

I like Sam's Club. Where else can I buy Kraft Macaroni and Cheese by the metric ton?

Costco.

Isn't Sam's owned by Costco, though? I'd say that'd disqualify them

[The Yosemite Bear]

Sam's is Costco's competitian and owned by WALMART!

[Xenophobe3691]

What about BJ's? That place is pretty cool...

[Dahak]

After reading all this I'm glad that Wal-Mart is only a dwarf here in germany with no real chances to grow.....

Remember that little dumping price game they played when Walmart was oh so new here in Germany? It was so much fun to see them get fucked by Aldi/Lidl...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sam's is owned by Wal-Mart?!

[Joe]

Sam's is owned by Wal-Mart?!

The "Sam" in "Sam's Club" = Sam Walton, founder of Wal-Mart.

[StimNeuro]

Sam's is owned by Wal-Mart?!

I thnk it's the other way around, but yeah. Ever seen a Wal-Mart gift card? Those can be used at either Wal-Mart or Sam's.

[h0rus]

Wal-Mart is standing disproof of the libertarians' naive belief that consumers will keep immoral businesses in check by refusing to deal with them.

Yes, those morons overlook the circumstances involved in a decision to shop there. Prices, closeness. All I hear from people who do shop at walmart, is that they have great deals on stuff that is more expensive elsewhere. I doubt any of these people would martyr themselves because they 'cheat' other employees. Real people, not scholars, can grasp that ideals can be freely dropped or simply not pursued if it is worth something to them. [/rant off]

[theski]

Here is a little COSTCO plug...

Costco's Dilemma: Be Kind To Its Workers, or Wall Street?
When it comes to workers, companies can be accused of not paying enough -- or paying too much.

Wal-Mart Stores Inc.'s parsimonious approach to employee compensation has made the world's largest retailer a frequent target of labor unions and even Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, who has accused the Bentonville, Ark., chain of failing to offer its employees affordable health-care coverage.

In contrast, rival Costco Wholesale Corp. often is held up as a retailer that does it right, paying well and offering generous benefits.

But Costco's kind-hearted philosophy toward its 100,000 cashiers, shelf-stockers and other workers is drawing criticism from Wall Street. Some analysts and investors contend that the Issaquah, Wash., warehouse-club operator actually is too good to employees, with Costco shareholders suffering as a result.

"From the perspective of investors, Costco's benefits are overly generous," says Bill Dreher, retailing analyst with Deutsche Bank Securities Inc. "Public companies need to care for shareholders first. Costco runs its business like it is a private company."

costco article

[Crayz9000]

Sam's is owned by Wal-Mart?!

I thnk it's the other way around, but yeah. Ever seen a Wal-Mart gift card? Those can be used at either Wal-Mart or Sam's.

As far as I can tell, there was a warehouse chain called Pace Membership Warehouse (PMW for short). Walton apparently bought that chain out, renamed it to Sam's Club, and added it to his portfolio.

I don't know if the entirety of Sam's Club at the beginning was PMW, but at least here in California all PMW locations became Sam's Clubs. Only a few additional Sam's Clubs were built.

At any rate, shortly after the buyout we quit shopping there, since the prices actually went up from what they'd been, and basically the stores became more run-down than they were. It's no surprise that Sam's Club carries a shoddier reputation than Costco: it's because they are shoddier.

[Master of Ossus]

Oh cry me a fucking river.

Corporate corruption has much more to do with the failure of the markets than unionization.

And this rebuts the economically observed fact that unionization drives markets towards failure... how?

I'd much rather invest in a unionized company that was honest in its reporting of results than in a nonunion company that routinely cooked its books so much that Betty Crocker asked the CFO for the recipie.

That's your own prerogative, but economists regularly state that unionization damages the market. The reason is fairly simple: by artificially raising wages and regularly attempting to change benefit packages, the union lowers employment in its business, leading to an excess of labor in related industries which drives them towards failure.

My employer's DC's are all union, yet we dominate in our retail category.

Good for your company. However, the fact that your company is unionized damages other related industries, as it does for people who are trying to find work in your business.

And given the abuse I've seen of workers in our plant with the union, I shudder to think what they'd be like without the union.

Unions are still needed today in a lot of industries.

Can you provide EVIDENCE to back up this assertion of yours? In what industries do unions provide employees with significant benefits without mandating unemployment for others and market failures in related industries?

[Master of Ossus]

And yet, ever since union-busting set in, the position of the American worker has deterioriated.

Odd, that...

That says absolutely nothing about what I was talking about. The point of the market is not strictly to provide rights to the American worker without regard for the industry. I said that unionization drives the market towards failure, and the drop in American worker rights since the unions lost their power have led to a market correction, whereas before several industries were drastically over-paying their work forces as a result of unionization.

[Stravo]

My experience with unions is pretty negative.

Personally when my dad had his heart attack and was forced to retire for health reasons his union did not step up to the plate and help him in filling out the TONS of paperwork that he needed to complete for his pension and the like. And as to his pension, my dad paid into the system since '62 and what did he end up getting from his union? $79.00 a month. These fuckers are off having gala dinner events, union reps driving new cars and their members are getting $79.00 a month when they retire after paying union benefits for over 30 years?! Fuck that.

Also the municipal unions here in NYC are regodamndiculous. I cannot tell you the times I have seen city workers sitting on their asses doing nothing, construction workers sitting around while traffic is detoured because of their work. As someone who works his ASS off hours on end I am offended by people who think it is their right to have these mandated breaks in work that seem to strecth on forever and get paid extremely well to do it. The court system is no better with Judge's clerks sleeping during trial or rushing us out because god forbid he stays one minute past 4:30pm.

I have very little sympathy for the modern unions who are just fleeciong their members. There is very little benefit that I have seen perosanlly for my father or anyone else I know for joining a union other than the smug comment I had from a friend who is in the Verizon union. "I've been late 4 times this month, but what are they going to do? Fire me?" UGH.

There was a point in time when they were absolutely neccessary but things have changed.

[HappyTarget]

I hate Wal Mart simply because the stores are an unpleasant place to be. Target, while not exactly upscale, its so much better. I can't think of anything at Wal Mart I can't get at Target, Kragens, or Costco.

I agree, shop at Target before Wal Mart. Target is just so much better on so many levels, including (from personal experience) employee treatment. [/corporate shill mode] Target hasn't moved up to Canada yet, so when I moved back to the US it was a rather pleasant surprise to enter one for the first time. All nice and pretty and clean, with nice wide asiles laid out with some sembelence of sense and order. [/ok, really ending the corporate shill mode this time]

[Glocksman]

Good for your company. However, the fact that your company is unionized damages other related industries, as it does for people who are trying to find work in your business.

Shouldn't the fact that my company is unionized help their competitors as they are free to drive wages and benefits lower and thus better compete with my unionized company?

And wouldn't this help the related industries that depend upon my company since they would have additional customers for their goods?

And this rebuts the economically observed fact that unionization drives markets towards failure... how?

Other than stating the obvious that union labor can't compete on costs with slave wages in some Third World country, how about some proof?

In other words, why should labor be denied the same right that capital has to organize?

Can you provide EVIDENCE to back up this assertion of yours? In what industries do unions provide employees with significant benefits without mandating unemployment for others and market failures in related industries?

Are safety and health significant benefits? One of the few successful organizing drives in recent history has to be UNITE's organizing of laundries. Safety and health conditions are atrocious in the laundry plants and while the union hasn't made big strides on the wage front, they have forced the employers to operate the business safer while treating employees fairly.

The point of the market is not strictly to provide rights to the American worker without regard for the industry. I said that unionization drives the market towards failure, and the drop in American worker rights since the unions lost their power have led to a market correction, whereas before several industries were drastically over-paying their work forces as a result of unionization.

America is more than a labor pool for the 'markets'.


My union is far from perfect and I despise the political stances it takes, but I also recognize that a corporation's only legal duty is to enrich the stockholders to the exclusion of everything else. When dealing with a corporation, it's best to be organized.

And as far as 'overpaying' goes, define it? What's overpaid in the retail industry? $7/hr? $10/hr? $15/hr?

Due to their legal obligations to stockholders, most corporations would (and some have, like Wally World and the cleaning subcontractor scandal) less than minimum wage. Is that proper?

[Glocksman]

My experience with unions is pretty negative.

Personally when my dad had his heart attack and was forced to retire for health reasons his union did not step up to the plate and help him in filling out the TONS of paperwork that he needed to complete for his pension and the like. And as to his pension, my dad paid into the system since '62 and what did he end up getting from his union? $79.00 a month. These fuckers are off having gala dinner events, union reps driving new cars and their members are getting $79.00 a month when they retire after paying union benefits for over 30 years?! Fuck that.

Yeah, some unions' pension plans suck ass.

The old ILGWU pension pays about that per month after 30 years of service. The newer UNITE (successor union to the ILGWU) plan pays triple that amount for the same amount of service. Not great, but better.

I have very little sympathy for the modern unions who are just fleeciong their members. There is very little benefit that I have seen perosanlly for my father or anyone else I know for joining a union other than the smug comment I had from a friend who is in the Verizon union. "I've been late 4 times this month, but what are they going to do? Fire me?" UGH.

There was a point in time when they were absolutely neccessary but things have changed.

With some employers, things have changed. Unfortunately, not all employers are so enlightened. Those poor saps at Wal Mart are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to exploitation.


I've worked both union and nonunion, and I prefer union. Not because of the wages being better, but because I don't have to kiss the supervisor's ass in order to keep my job. I *can* be fired for just cause, but I can't be termed because one of the managers doesn't like fat guys.

It's all about equitable treatment, especially in 'at will' employment states like Indiana where if you aren't covered under a union contract, you can be fired at any time without any warning as long as the employer isn't violating a federal law in doing so.

[Patrick Degan]

And yet, ever since union-busting set in, the position of the American worker has deterioriated.

Odd, that...

That says absolutely nothing about what I was talking about. The point of the market is not strictly to provide rights to the American worker without regard for the industry.

Which is not what I said.

I said that unionization drives the market towards failure,

No, too few dollars chasing too many goods is what drives markets toward failure.

and the drop in American worker rights since the unions lost their power have led to a market correction, whereas before several industries were drastically over-paying their work forces as a result of unionization.

And exactly how much pay is "enough"? How does placing workers in a position where they are overworked, underpaid, insecure, and insolvent result in a stable market structure?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Now, there are reasons to have a union, but there also many reasons why not every industry needs them. Here is why.

1. Union demands higher wages. There are two possible results
This can have a number of effects

A. Company closes down strore. This is not desirable because this would cause customers to shop somewhere else thus giving aid to the competition, and driving up prices due to increased demand.

B. Give in to demands. This is not good because the company would be forced to raise prices, lay off workers, or cut production. If they raise prices, they will drive customers in to arms of rival non-union stores. If they lay of workers, they will losoe busines because said workers are no longer able to shop at said stroe, and production would decrease, thus forcing them to raise prices, driving customers to rival stores. If they cut production, same problem.

So unions are not god for a store. They do serve for a good punishment for corrupt ones though.

2. It gets even worse if everything in an industry is unionized. If they dont give in to demands... industry collapses.

If they do, prices must go up. This caussses a nice cyclical loop. Prices go up, consumers cant afford to buy them and demand higher wages*raise equlibrium price for labor* Prices go up in that industry.. lather rinse repeat. End result:There is more money in the system than it is worth to those that value money, and we have INFLATION. Unless more is actually being produced for money to actually opay for, the value of more money will decrease a ccording to the laws of suply and demand, and we have problems with inflation... *shudder*

[Darth Wong]

Unions are an inevitable response to inadequate government legislation to protect workers' rights. They introduce problems of their own, but ultimately, the fault lies with governments whose slavelike adherence to the whims of Wall Street prohibits the passage of effective worker protection laws.

Wall Street will never protect workers. Corporations will not protect workers of their own accord (and if they do, Wall Street will punish them). So it is up to the workers to either become militant (ie- join a union and turn the work environment into an "us vs them" scenario) or to the government to do what is necessary to raise worker rights and protection levels to a standard where unions are no longer inevitable.

Effective worker protection laws are ineffective without education, so it also helps if said laws are well-publicized and easily referenced. Knowledge is key: I was once instructed to come in on Saturday along with everyone else in the office because of a deadline crunch. I agreed, but when I was told not to take my lunch break, I decided it was time to draw a line in the sand. I tersely informed my manager that he was now in contravention of the Ontario Employment Standards Act, and that I would file a grievance with the Ontario Ministry of Labour on Monday if he continued on this course of action. I went on to quote the relevant section number of the Act, and inform him that I would be taking my lunch break, and that any future recriminations of any kind which could be traced to this incident would also put him in contravention of the Employment Standards Act. He backed down.

Mind you, I wasn't planning to climb the corporate ladder in this company, since I had already deduced that upper management was invariably hired from outside, and that middle management was a stepping stone to unemployment. A corporate ladder-climber has to kiss ass regardless of what his rights are.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Of theoretical and practical benefitial points to unions. Quality, & Safety.

shutting down a factory line, construction project, or store due to injury accident is bad for business. You have to pay costs for repair. Because unions while costing more, make an employer toe the line in reguards to safety issues there are suposed to be less accidents in a union shop (I don't really have any statistics or links, so I can't prove it, so I'm not claiming it is so)


Two training and quality control. Since union types are supposed to be better trained and motivated (very questionable, and I'm a union rep). The goods are suposed to be safer and of better quality for the consumer. SInce the international Brotherhood of Steamfitters prettymuch says what their wages are going to be, and sets the standard for training for all plumbers, even non-union contractors go by what the Steamfitters suggest. $30/hr is not cheap folks.....

[Durandal]

I have very little sympathy for the modern unions who are just fleeciong their members. There is very little benefit that I have seen perosanlly for my father or anyone else I know for joining a union other than the smug comment I had from a friend who is in the Verizon union. "I've been late 4 times this month, but what are they going to do? Fire me?" UGH.

Whatever you've got in New York, it's probably 10x as in Chicago. My dad's friend is a certified electrician who's worked with unions quite a bit. If you're a non-union worker on a site with union workers, the union boys will cut your wires while you're at lunch if they find out that you're not union.

Hell, when we had our office remodeled at work, we had to move to another floor. When the remodeling was finished, we couldn't move anything back down ourselves. We had to sit around waiting for the union workers to do it for us. All we could do was clean our desks and set up our computers (we'd all be damned if we were letting some union clowns set up our machines for us). We basically lost two whole days to a moving process that should've only taken one day because we were on the union's schedule, which created a mess for the help desk analysts, who had to catch up on all the voice mail we'd received during our downtime.

[Darth Wong]

I've worked in both union shops and non-union shops. There is no difference in quality of craftsmanship. However, the union workers are typically higher-paid and don't work as hard. The bigger the union, the more dramatic the difference until you reach government worker unions, which are truly obscene in their abuse of power.