Storage Capacity

[playloud]

I have saw a post a while back discussing R2 vs Data, or C-3PO vs Data, and it was mentioned how much storage capacity the SW droids had. Also, Count Dooku apparently held the full blueprints to the Deathstar in a small holopad. This got me thinking about data capacity in ST.

I saw an article today (don't know if it has been brought up before) on what a real life transporter would take.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.11/krauss.html

If I read the numbers right, a transporter would need to have a memory capacity of 1 quintillion terabytes, in order to send a human from one place to another.

In ST: Nemesis, Data had a prototype for the Emergency Transport Unit, which was about the size of a bumble bee. As the Enterprise transporters were down, this small device had to not only have the power to transport Picard back to his ship, but also have enough storage capacity to store the human pattern into the pattern buffer.

This seems like a lot of data to store in such a small device. Out of curiosity, how much data do you think it would take to store the plans for the Deathstar, or be fluent in over 6 million forms of communication?

[General Zod]

transporters do not store the patterns for any significant length of time, so it doesn't take nearly as much physical memory as say, storing enough data on 6 million languages to be fluent in each.

[Ghost Rider]

transporters do not store the patterns for any significant length of time, so it doesn't take nearly as much physical memory as say, storing enough data on 6 million languages to be fluent in each.

Also not just fluency, these things have edict as well cultural standard along with it, given the are quite versed in matters of Protocol.

Also for the Astromech...remember he not only held the DS1 schematics, he hold a variety of Hyperspace calculations and can make changes when needed.

[Mr Bean]

Not to mention decore and protocol for bob knows how many diffrent races and species to the extent of even having old verions of languages to help decode new ones as well local dialecs of all those languages

[Darth Wong]

In ST: Nemesis, Data had a prototype for the Emergency Transport Unit, which was about the size of a bumble bee. As the Enterprise transporters were down, this small device had to not only have the power to transport Picard back to his ship, but also have enough storage capacity to store the human pattern into the pattern buffer.

You are assuming that the pattern is completely stored in the device and then fired off to the recipient device, rather than a streaming process.

Modern computers already utilize various forms of streaming data processing techniques; there is no reason whatsoever to assume that this technique has been lost to 24th century engineers.

Besides, if they can truly store the complete pattern, then why can't they replicate complex objects? Or whole people, for that matter? There's something more complex here than simple storage of 1s and 0s in computer memory, otherwise you wouldn't have to worry about this mystical "pattern buffer", nor would the memory requirement skyrocket if the people aren't promptly materialized (as we saw in one DS9 episode).

Also, how much data do you really need to keep? Contrary to popular belief, quantum states are totally unnecessary; one needs only chemical data. And of the various cells in your body, they all have identical DNA, for example, so there's no need to store more than one copy of that. I would think that even if they did have to store the complete pattern, there could be some amazing methods of data compression for that particular task.

[Cej4096]

I believe there was an episode of DS9 called "Our Man Bashir" where they had to store the patterns of five people for a while in the station's computer. The patterns for their bodies seemed to take up neglible space, while their brains took up most of the total storage capacity of the station.

If whenever someone is transported the location and state of each atom is analysed and stored, I doubt that their brain would take up so much more space than the rest of their body.

[General Zod]

I believe there was an episode of DS9 called "Our Man Bashir" where they had to store the patterns of five people for a while in the station's computer. The patterns for their bodies seemed to take up neglible space, while their brains took up most of the total storage capacity of the station.

If whenever someone is transported the location and state of each atom is analysed and stored, I doubt that their brain would take up so much more space than the rest of their body.

it isn't stored. it's transmitted. constantly streaming. that's what the buffer does, i believe. that way they don't have to store the entire pattern at once.

[Cej4096]

it isn't stored. it's transmitted. constantly streaming. that's what the buffer does, i believe. that way they don't have to store the entire pattern at once.

Yes, but that example does indicate that when the information DOES have to be stored for some reason, the amount isn't as large as some claim, and even a station like DS9, which may well have a larger computer capacity than a starship, has trouble dealing with the amount of data.

[General Zod]

it isn't stored. it's transmitted. constantly streaming. that's what the buffer does, i believe. that way they don't have to store the entire pattern at once.

Yes, but that example does indicate that when the information DOES have to be stored for some reason, the amount isn't as large as some claim, and even a station like DS9, which may well have a larger computer capacity than a starship, has trouble dealing with the amount of data.

they don't store data like that very often though, mainly due to the risk of pattern degredation and losing it.

[playloud]

I believe there was an episode of DS9 called "Our Man Bashir" where they had to store the patterns of five people for a while in the station's computer. The patterns for their bodies seemed to take up neglible space, while their brains took up most of the total storage capacity of the station.

If whenever someone is transported the location and state of each atom is analysed and stored, I doubt that their brain would take up so much more space than the rest of their body.

it isn't stored. it's transmitted. constantly streaming. that's what the buffer does, i believe. that way they don't have to store the entire pattern at once.

If the data isn't standing on the transporter pad, it has to be in the computer somewhere. Whether static, or streaming, all the info has to be present.

[General Zod]

I believe there was an episode of DS9 called "Our Man Bashir" where they had to store the patterns of five people for a while in the station's computer. The patterns for their bodies seemed to take up neglible space, while their brains took up most of the total storage capacity of the station.

If whenever someone is transported the location and state of each atom is analysed and stored, I doubt that their brain would take up so much more space than the rest of their body.

it isn't stored. it's transmitted. constantly streaming. that's what the buffer does, i believe. that way they don't have to store the entire pattern at once.

If the data isn't standing on the transporter pad, it has to be in the computer somewhere. Whether static, or streaming, all the info has to be present.

when something is being streamed it isn't being transmitted all at once. it's going bit by bit. when it's completely transmitted, it's usually reassembled automatically as a full person.

[Darth Wong]

If the data isn't standing on the transporter pad, it has to be in the computer somewhere. Whether static, or streaming, all the info has to be present.

It doesn't have to be present in the form of computer data; that's the point. There's this "subspace beam" which seems to hold the data. If they can make this beam recirculate in a confined space somehow, they effectively hold the data without really being able to use it the way you would computer data.

[Mad]

It doesn't have to be present in the form of computer data; that's the point. There's this "subspace beam" which seems to hold the data. If they can make this beam recirculate in a confined space somehow, they effectively hold the data without really being able to use it the way you would computer data.

That's probably along the lines of what they do, otherwise the risk of pattern degredation wouldn't be as high when they do try to store it for a period of time.

[Ender]

Ted C did a really good job summing up all we know about transporters, download his worksheets, its in there.

[The Kernel]

If the data isn't standing on the transporter pad, it has to be in the computer somewhere. Whether static, or streaming, all the info has to be present.

It doesn't have to be present in the form of computer data; that's the point. There's this "subspace beam" which seems to hold the data. If they can make this beam recirculate in a confined space somehow, they effectively hold the data without really being able to use it the way you would computer data.

That fits, as this is exactly what Scotty did in the TNG episode "Relics" when he stored himself in the transporter while waiting to be rescued.

[Executor32]

Also, IIRC his niece Katarina did the same thing in Elite Force 2 when the USS Dallas was attacked by xenomorphs. Not that it should be considered canon, of course.

[Sarevok]

If the data isn't standing on the transporter pad, it has to be in the computer somewhere. Whether static, or streaming, all the info has to be present.

It doesn't have to be present in the form of computer data; that's the point. There's this "subspace beam" which seems to hold the data. If they can make this beam recirculate in a confined space somehow, they effectively hold the data without really being able to use it the way you would computer data.

That fits, as this is exactly what Scotty did in the TNG episode "Relics" when he stored himself in the transporter while waiting to be rescued.

Also people seem to be conciouss while in the middile of transporting. During that time they are in a white featureless area as seen in one TNG.

[Mange]

Think about how much storage capacity a R2 unit must have since they're able to store up to 10 sets of hyperspace coordinates. This is most impressive as a galaxy and its stars revolves and let's not forget the vast distance a journey through hyperspace may cover (I'm sorry, I'm tired and that affects my English ).

[Tribun]

Don't forget that R2 was never specially outfitted for holding the Death Star plans. That means he had them in his memory banks together with all his usual data and his personality and memories of existance.

Remember that.....

[Mange]

Don't forget that R2 was never specially outfitted for holding the Death Star plans. That means he had them in his memory banks together with all his usual data and his personality and memories of existance.

Remember that.....

Yes, a most impressive feat. Unparalleled in the Federation, let's not even mention the "infalliable" mr Data.

[SWPIGWANG]

I'm fairly new to SW debates, so I'll probably get imperial smackdown, but whatever.

so it doesn't take nearly as much physical memory as say, storing enough data on 6 million languages to be fluent in each.

6 million is what, 6,000,000 languages? I do not think the storage capacity for that is that impressive. An uncompressed dictionary containing all the used words and grammer for an language such as english is only on the orders of megabytes of storage space and far less when compressed. Voice and such requires a few magnitudes more memory at best. Fluency and such probably don't require more memory than voice, the difficulty lies in codifying the unwritten rules. The major difficulty in knowing nature languages lie is voice and writing recogntion and the general intelligence to make sense of it and this capacity can be shared across many languages. After all, all the english textbooks, hell all the english books and conversations I've had would probably not exceed 1GB when compressed in textual form, and only an tiny fraction of that is needed to learn english.

When considering the possibility of similarities between languages as they converge or diverge, considering their limited purpose and requirements for efficiency, the possibilities for compression is staggering. Once an universal communication framework (which is require for translation) is established, the syntax really don't need that much memory to define.

Assuming that it takes 1GB (which is overkill IMO unless there is an unreasonable definition of fluency) to define an langauge, it would take only 1PB to store 6 million languages. Given moore's law, that should be obtainable on an PC in another ~30years.

Also for the Astromech...remember he not only held the DS1 schematics, he hold a variety of Hyperspace calculations and can make changes when needed.

Think about how much storage capacity a R2 unit must have since they're able to store up to 10 sets of hyperspace coordinates. This is most impressive as a galaxy and its stars revolves and let's not forget the vast distance a journey through hyperspace may cover

First of all, I don't think there is ever can number attached to the complexities of hyperspace calculations coordinates and such. If we are talking about real cooridinates in real space, even on with accuacy within planck's distance for something the size of the milky way gives out an number that my calculator can display and store, at 1x10^55 (or so). calcuation complexity for hyperspace can be anything really, from order 1000^n complexity hell to something one can be done by hand, and we have no way of knowing.

Don't forget that R2 was never specially outfitted for holding the Death Star plans. That means he had them in his memory banks together with all his usual data and his personality and memories of existance.

We don't know how detailed the Death Star plan is. It probably isn't defining every nut and bolt on the death star, and many death star parts might be universal/shared and simply "looked up" when searched. (I guess real engineers can help out here.....)

[troll]Yes R2 has an copy of ICS in its memory banks, but I can find a copy on an bookstore shelf too. [/troll]

[SWPIGWANG]

Also consider Trek universal language translators. Assuming the principle works, the memory capacity for storing 6million languages is effectively nil as the data collected by interacting with an alien for neligible amounts of time is enough to extroplate the language and that amount data can easily be stored.

[Darth Wong]

After all, all the english textbooks, hell all the english books and conversations I've had would probably not exceed 1GB when compressed in textual form, and only an tiny fraction of that is needed to learn english.

You are, of course, assuming that every language can be stored in the form of combinations of a small number of letters. Given that many of the languages known to C3PO have no written form at all, some cannot be pronounced by humans at all, and others may be even more esoteric, I'd say you're grossly underestimating the difficulty.

First of all, I don't think there is ever can number attached to the complexities of hyperspace calculations coordinates and such. If we are talking about real cooridinates in real space, even on with accuacy within planck's distance for something the size of the milky way gives out an number that my calculator can display and store, at 1x10^55 (or so). calcuation complexity for hyperspace can be anything really, from order 1000^n complexity hell to something one can be done by hand, and we have no way of knowing.

With 400 million stars and the need to know where all of them are at a bare minimum in conjunction with last known velocity data on all of them and astrophysical projections of all their movements to sufficient accuracy to drop a ship within a few tens of thousands of kilometres of the target planet anywhere in the galaxy at any time, it's a pretty stressful computer exercise to say the least.

We don't know how detailed the Death Star plan is. It probably isn't defining every nut and bolt on the death star, and many death star parts might be universal/shared and simply "looked up" when searched. (I guess real engineers can help out here.....)

Even simple architectural drawings for a variety store can easily add up to several megabytes, and it's not a complex structure which requires true 3D modeling. The CAD/CAM model for a headlight lens can easily hit 50MB. I suppose one might argue that a very simplistic block diagram would be small, but such a diagram would not include full dimensional data, which was necessary in order to know things like "2 metre wide exhaust port".

[Darth Wong]

Also consider Trek universal language translators. Assuming the principle works, the memory capacity for storing 6million languages is effectively nil as the data collected by interacting with an alien for neligible amounts of time is enough to extroplate the language and that amount data can easily be stored.

With only a few hundred species to interact with and common cultural bases across much of the galaxy, this doesn't mean much. Darmok's language was BASED ON FUCKING ENGLISH and the thing couldn't figure it out (and don't tell me that the use of metaphor is alien to modern language; our own language is filled with words and phrases that only make sense through reference to historical stories).

[Isolder74]

Not only that C-3PO also had stored for each language several Dialects.

What is a Dialect? IT is a variation of grammer and meaning in which a set of words may mean something totally different.

Then is that fact that the droid is a Protacal Droid. For every one of those languages a 3PO Droid has to know all of the gultural knowlrdge and rules of conduct for each of them.

This does not include many different planets that use the same language and have different rules of canduct!

So that is alot of data stored in dear old C-3PO!