Bush Opinion Poll

[Glocksman]

If it wasn't for the gun issue, I'd probably hold my nose and punch (yes, we use punch cards ) Kerry's number. As it is, I can't support either one of them.

With a Republican Congress, I don't think you'll have to worry too much about that if Kerry gets elected.

Gridlock™, it's a wonderful thing.

[Darth Wong]

Glocksman, your complaints seem to fall into three categories:

1) The assault-weapons ban (GWB also supports this, so it's irrelevant).

2) Laws that are irrelevant because they change nothing.

3) Licensing for ammo dealers (I don't see what's unreasonable about this; the "extra cost" argument could be applied to regulation of any industry).

4) This proposed law which will ostensibly ban armor-piercing bullets but which you say would outlaw all rifle ammunition. This sounds like alarmism to me; it is not the stated intent of the law to ban all rifle ammunition, and the likelihood of such a ban going into effect with that ramification in place is zero.

I still don't see how Kerry's stance on guns would affect you, apart from higher ammo costs due to licensing. And if you're going to vote for a known liar and gross incompetent on that basis alone, you'd better be going through an awful lot of ammo to make it worthwhile.

[Glocksman]

Glocksman, your complaints seem to fall into three categories:

1) The assault-weapons ban (GWB also supports this, so it's irrelevant).

For the most part, agreed with the caveat that he isn't actively working for it. Kerry would actively push for a renewal.

2) Laws that are irrelevant because they change nothing.

The 'gun show loophole' laws would force the occasional seller to route the sale through an FFL. They do change something.

3) Licensing for ammo dealers (I don't see what's unreasonable about this; the "extra cost" argument could be applied to regulation of any industry).

What Kerry's law would do is force ammo dealers to run ammo purchases through an NICS check. If nothing else, the burden of literally millions of additional NICS checks per month would cause the system to break down.

I can't speak for all shooters, but I purchase ammo a lot more often than I purchase guns. Especially in .22 long rifle caliber.

What this proposal would effectively do is end the mail order sales of ammunition, including ammo for the C&R guns that I already have a federal license to purchase via the Internet or mail order.

4) This proposed law which will ostensibly ban armor-piercing bullets but which you say would outlaw all rifle ammunition. This sounds like alarmism to me; it is not the stated intent of the law to ban all rifle ammunition, and the likelihood of such a ban going into effect with that ramification in place is zero.

There already is a law that gives the Attorney General (formerly the SecTreas, but ATF was transferred to the Justice Department) the authority to ban any pistol ammo that is armor piercing. That law has been around since the mid 1980's.

From a straight reading of the proposal, I find no exemption for rifle ammunition in it. All it states is that 'Under the bill, the Secretary of the Treasury would be required to test and rate the destructive power of projectiles to clearly define and ban armor-piercing ammunition.'

Since there already is an effective law that bans the possession of AP pistol ammo, what conclusion am I supposed to draw from this?

I still don't see how Kerry's stance on guns would affect you, apart from higher ammo costs due to licensing. And if you're going to vote for a known liar and gross incompetent on that basis alone, you'd better be going through an awful lot of ammo to make it worthwhile.

Who said I'm voting for Bush?

[Darth Wong]

Did I say three categories, and then list four? Damn!

For the most part, agreed with the caveat that he isn't actively working for it. Kerry would actively push for a renewal.

I can't see this making a difference either way.

2) Laws that are irrelevant because they change nothing.

The 'gun show loophole' laws would force the occasional seller to route the sale through an FFL. They do change something.

The "occasional seller" doesn't mean much.

3) Licensing for ammo dealers (I don't see what's unreasonable about this; the "extra cost" argument could be applied to regulation of any industry).

What Kerry's law would do is force ammo dealers to run ammo purchases through an NICS check. If nothing else, the burden of literally millions of additional NICS checks per month would cause the system to break down.

Why? Visa bank transactions number millions per day, and don't break down.

I can't speak for all shooters, but I purchase ammo a lot more often than I purchase guns. Especially in .22 long rifle caliber.

What this proposal would effectively do is end the mail order sales of ammunition, including ammo for the C&R guns that I already have a federal license to purchase via the Internet or mail order.

Again, that's just a question of convenience and cost, not "rights" per se.

There already is a law that gives the Attorney General (formerly the SecTreas, but ATF was transferred to the Justice Department) the authority to ban any pistol ammo that is armor piercing. That law has been around since the mid 1980's.

From a straight reading of the proposal, I find no exemption for rifle ammunition in it. All it states is that 'Under the bill, the Secretary of the Treasury would be required to test and rate the destructive power of projectiles to clearly define and ban armor-piercing ammunition.'

Since there already is an effective law that bans the possession of AP pistol ammo, what conclusion am I supposed to draw from this?

That they intend to ban AP rifle ammo, not all rifle ammo. I know a lot of rifle bullets can technically pierce typical police body armour, but they're not actually designated AP ammo.

Who said I'm voting for Bush?

So you're voting independent? Sorry, you probably said that before and I missed it.

[theski]

TheKernal wrote

BTW, theski, no offense intended on thinking you might have voted excellent. You're a decent guy, just seriously misguided in your political opinions.

Sorry I didn't vote in the poll..... SO all guesses were wrong

but I did explain myself in the Why vote for Bush thread....If it was a Grade curve I would have gave him a C

BTW... I am still waiting for someone to please give me a reason to vote for Kerry.. Not a Hate bush vote.. but a true "This Is why I want to pull the lever for Kerry answer"

Even the folks at DU are having second thoughts about Kerry.. You should have nominated what you believe in.... THat would be DEAN... plug to Iceberg...

[HemlockGrey]

Frankly, in this election any vote that's not for Kerry is essentially a vote for Bush.

[Glocksman]

That they intend to ban AP rifle ammo, not all rifle ammo. I know a lot of rifle bullets can technically pierce typical police body armour, but they're not actually designated AP ammo.

The proposal gives the SecTreas the authority to designate just what is 'AP ammo' based on the testing and rating mentioned. If under testing, a .30-06 or .223 FMJ round pierces the police soft armor used for a testing medium (and it will), then it's labeled AP ammo even though it's no such thing. Of course it'll ban genuine AP ammo, but it'll also have the effect of banning 95%+ of all rifle ammo.

At close range, almost any centerfire rifle loading will pierce soft armor.

So you're voting independent? Sorry, you probably said that before and I missed it.

At this point, I'm probably writing in Dean.

[Tribun]

Personally I think even a monkey could be a better president than Bush jr..

That said I hope that Kerry will win.

[Fire Fly]

There's something I don't understand how people think sometimes. I'll use my roommate for example. He's a Nader supporter and a Bush hater. However, given that he hates Bush so much, why would he still vote for Nader even though he knows that the Presidential race will be extremely close? He complains and dislikes Bush so much...why not do something about it instead of complaining and whining? I hear all of his talk about how he dislikes Bush's faith based initiative, his corporate lobbiers, his etc. And so I rhetorically ask again, if you dislike Bush so much, why not do something about it instead of whine and complain? As said earlier, any vote not for Kerry really is essentially a vote for Bush. That's one thing that really pisses me off about these Nader supporters, they'll complain about it but they aren't willing to vote for the canadiate who has the best chance to beat Bush and then there's those who dislike Bush and dislike Kerry but hate Bush more but because they're righteous fools, they won't vote for anyone. Arg! That's my daily vent of the day.

But that's just me.

[Glocksman]

As said earlier, any vote not for Kerry really is essentially a vote for Bush. That's one thing that really pisses me off about these Nader supporters, they'll complain about it but they aren't willing to vote for the canadiate who has the best chance to beat Bush and then there's those who dislike Bush and dislike Kerry but hate Bush more but because they're righteous fools, they won't vote for anyone. Arg! That's my daily vent of the day.

But that's just me.

Some people prefer to vote for the candidate they can honestly support, not merely the lesser of the two evils.

There isn't enough Lysol in the world to eliminate the stench coming from Bush and Kerry.

[Col. Crackpot]

being a fiscal conservative i say poor. lay off the credit cards George! sure as hell not what i voted for.

i just want to take issue with a cliche running though this thread and the world. That whole bit about taking the worlds goodwill and squandering it. Of course competing powers send their goodwill when we are on the floor and bleeding, thats where they want us to be. As soon as we did something to defend ourselves in Afghanistan the bitching began. Iraq is a seprate issue and i'm sick of that one. fuck it

[Superman]

Well, my grandfather is in his 70's and claims that Bush is the worst American president he's ever seen. He says that he's also very Nixon-esque, for what that's worth.

[BoredShirtless]

As soon as we did something to defend ourselves in Afghanistan the bitching began.

Wrong, it began when you made it clear Iraq was next.

Iraq is a seprate issue and i'm sick of that one.

Exactly, so why are you merging the two?

[Peregrin Toker]

From what I know, George W. Bush is far too easy to manipulate to be fit for statesmanship - it's like he literally just does what various special-interest groups tell him to.

[Patrick Degan]

being a fiscal conservative i say poor. lay off the credit cards George! sure as hell not what i voted for.

i just want to take issue with a cliche running though this thread and the world. That whole bit about taking the worlds goodwill and squandering it. Of course competing powers send their goodwill when we are on the floor and bleeding, thats where they want us to be. As soon as we did something to defend ourselves in Afghanistan the bitching began. Iraq is a seprate issue and i'm sick of that one. fuck it

The world was behind us when we did something to defend ourselves in Afganistan. The "bitching" began when Georgie the Wonder Chimp started frothing at the mouth over Iraq.

[Vohu Manah]

I never voted for him to begin with, and his job performance doesn't change my mind (especially considering he ran as a moderate, and not as a neo-conservative). He's incredibly inexperienced, and it shows through, his only experience in government prior to this was 6 years as Governor of Texas (if he has more, I am not aware of it).

Maybe I am in the minority for saying this, his biggest mistake was tying the War on Terror to the invasion of Iraq, especially when everyone with half a brain knew he was wrong or outright lying about many of the claims he was making. If he wanted to invade Iraq so bad, he should have just been honest about his reasons, we probably would have gone for it regardless. It doesn't help matters that his administration had (has?) no plan for the post-war Iraq, that shows too. It doesn't help that people "in the know" are calling him on all of this (such as Richard Clarke and Joe Wilson).

[HemlockGrey]

So who the hell said "excellent job"?

[Darth Wong]

So who the hell said "excellent job"?

Obviously someone who lacks the balls to identify himself, hence his opinion is that of an intellectual coward, ie- insignificant.