Walper Defends Murderous Snowflake

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-04-08 01:47pm

Aww.

It's too bad that the debate had to come to an end. It was reminding me of the debate between Calvin and Hobbes, what with the wall of ignorance, the taunts, the name-calling and such.
Too bad the evidence slammed down hard on Walper's position.

"Just when I had you in the crushing grip of reason, too."

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2004-04-08 03:22pm

Robert Walper wrote:Perhaps if I get a chance to review the episodes in question sometime in the future, my perspective will change.

What was wrong with the bits of the episode people quoted? Why wasn't that convincing enough?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-04-08 03:28pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:This last exchange, particularly his response to Patrick Degan's quote, confirms that NO EVIDENCE will break down Walper's idiot wall of ignorance. If you have to trick a non-sentient life form into lowering its defenses, it's pretty fucking obvious that it's intelligent. And this "maybe there are other kinds of intelligence which aren't like human intelligence" appeal to ignorance is just fucking tiresome.
I'll just drop the arguement then. It's not my intention to piss anyone off, I just disagree. Perhaps if I get a chance to review the episodes in question sometime in the future, my perspective will change.

You know, Robert, if you really didn't want to piss anyone off, maybe you should start debating honestly. With evidence and analysis and all those things that you seem to be honestly allergic to, given that you never, ever use them. Oh, and perhaps also you could actually concede a debate, admit you were wrong, instead of this bullshit 'i give up i run away but i will never admit i was thoroughly proven wrong'.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-04-08 03:30pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:If Data can be drugged they both have enough living matter on board For the entity to ba able tell that Lore was built by Humans.
why does data -or- lore have to have living matter ? it may have simply been a chemical designed to cause a reaction to certain circuits lore knew would affect data just enough to shut him down.

Well Data is fully functional.

Does that imply he can have kids?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-04-08 03:34pm

on another note Lore talked to it in PLAIN ENGLISH!

This means it knew exactally what the Enterprise was saying that entire episode. They fact it started to play dumb makes the encounter even MORE toubling!

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-08 03:35pm

Isolder74 wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:If Data can be drugged they both have enough living matter on board For the entity to ba able tell that Lore was built by Humans.
why does data -or- lore have to have living matter ? it may have simply been a chemical designed to cause a reaction to certain circuits lore knew would affect data just enough to shut him down.
Well Data is fully functional.

Does that imply he can have kids?

i don't see how you'd get this from him being fully functional. it means that he could simulate all the processes of being alive, to some degree or another but not that he could do everything a regular human can precisely.

a dildo with the right accessories attached is fully functional as well but it doesn't mean it's going to get a woman pregnant.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2004-04-08 05:23pm

Isolder74 wrote:on another note Lore talked to it in PLAIN ENGLISH!

This means it knew exactally what the Enterprise was saying that entire episode. They fact it started to play dumb makes the encounter even MORE toubling!

Well, plain English that went through the E-D's computer transmission whatever device. Lore could have easily programmed said device to communicate in the giant snowflake's own language.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-04-08 05:43pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:on another note Lore talked to it in PLAIN ENGLISH!

This means it knew exactally what the Enterprise was saying that entire episode. They fact it started to play dumb makes the encounter even MORE toubling!
Well, plain English that went through the E-D's computer transmission whatever device. Lore could have easily programmed said device to communicate in the giant snowflake's own language.

Even so I find it suspect that it was taking as long as it did sense They should have been able to find out what Lore was doing sense it was using their computer. I Lore could pull it off then why not Data?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-04-08 11:36pm

SirNitram wrote:
Robert Walper wrote: I'll just drop the arguement then. It's not my intention to piss anyone off, I just disagree. Perhaps if I get a chance to review the episodes in question sometime in the future, my perspective will change.
You know, Robert, if you really didn't want to piss anyone off, maybe you should start debating honestly. With evidence and analysis and all those things that you seem to be honestly allergic to, given that you never, ever use them. Oh, and perhaps also you could actually concede a debate, admit you were wrong, instead of this bullshit 'i give up i run away but i will never admit i was thoroughly proven wrong'.

You whine that I should be honest, but insist that even if I have not been convinced I should admit defeat and that I'm wrong? That sounds dishonest. Call me dense, call me stupid, whatever, but I don't and didn't intentionally employ dishonest tactics.

Pardon me Nitram, but when the opposition is insisting that they are wasting their time and yadda yadda, I feel the best thing to do is simply give up the arguement rather than continue on when it appears any further effort to do so accomplishes nothing. I'm sure you thoroughly enjoy calling it "cowardice" or "running away", but I don't see it that way.

*shrugs* I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-04-08 11:49pm

Robert Walper wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Robert Walper wrote: I'll just drop the arguement then. It's not my intention to piss anyone off, I just disagree. Perhaps if I get a chance to review the episodes in question sometime in the future, my perspective will change.
You know, Robert, if you really didn't want to piss anyone off, maybe you should start debating honestly. With evidence and analysis and all those things that you seem to be honestly allergic to, given that you never, ever use them. Oh, and perhaps also you could actually concede a debate, admit you were wrong, instead of this bullshit 'i give up i run away but i will never admit i was thoroughly proven wrong'.
You whine that I should be honest, but insist that even if I have not been convinced I should admit defeat and that I'm wrong? That sounds dishonest. Call me dense, call me stupid, whatever, but I don't and didn't intentionally employ dishonest tactics.

Ah, of course. You're instead just so blindingly stupid you are incapable of understanding the basics of debate when they are repeatedly explained to you, then?

Pardon me Nitram, but when the opposition is insisting that they are wasting their time and yadda yadda, I feel the best thing to do is simply give up the arguement rather than continue on when it appears any further effort to do so accomplishes nothing. I'm sure you thoroughly enjoy calling it "cowardice" or "running away", but I don't see it that way.

Yea, heaven forbid you consider you might be wrong. That's beyond you, clearly.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-04-09 12:51am

If you want some good comedy, go back and look at his first post, and then compare it to any of his recent posts. Notice how he has never really defended his original propositions; he has merely changed the subject into an neverending appeal to ignorance.

For example, one of his original claims was that the "whale feeding on plankton" analogy was completely sound, and that is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever seen. Walper is truly demonstrating once again why he was so deservedly placed upon the Hate Mail page.

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-04-09 02:25am

Robert Walper wrote:
Fast-forward to TNG. The Crystalline Entity had killed thousands, possibly millions of people.
As Picard put it "The giant whale of Earth consumes millions of plankton. It is not evil, it is feeding." I see nothing wrong with that statement and the analogy is sound.

Makes one wonder what Picard would say if billions of plankton suddenly worked to strangulate the whale.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2004-04-09 02:55am

I'm still puzzled as to how space travel could be construed as anything BUT an example of an advanced civilization.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-04-09 04:12am

Connor MacLeod wrote:I'm still puzzled as to how space travel could be construed as anything BUT an example of an advanced civilization.

Example of yes, concrete evidence of one being currently present, not automatically. As far as the Entity is concerned, the lifeforms on-board may be parasites afflicting the computer intelligence controlling the ship. The crew might be bio-engineered, less than sentient slaves, working by rote.
Lore's communications, and likely propaganda to the entity may have furthered this misconception.

Not really likely at all in this case, but within the realm of possibility, especially considering those two examples didn't take me a minute to pull out of my ass.

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-04-09 04:31am

consequences wrote:Example of yes, concrete evidence of one being currently present, not automatically. As far as the Entity is concerned, the lifeforms on-board may be parasites afflicting the computer intelligence controlling the ship. The crew might be bio-engineered, less than sentient slaves, working by rote.
Lore's communications, and likely propaganda to the entity may have furthered this misconception.

Not really likely at all in this case, but within the realm of possibility, especially considering those two examples didn't take me a minute to pull out of my ass.

Then wouldn't it still realize it would be damaging the ship by eating its slaves? Not to mention tearing it apart to get to them?

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2004-04-09 04:51am

Looking back at the original debate between Robert and myself, and comparing it with the evidence dug up by the other posters, I think I stood down from that debate a little too early. Disregarding the tangents the debate had split off into, the debate boiled down to two hypothetical scenarios:

Mine - "If the entity had turned nasty and managed to damage the Enterprise and proceeded to another colony, the results would be disasterous. Picard was messing around in a situation where he should have taken his chance and blown the entity away."

His - "The Enterprise could have communicated with the entity given time, and they could have found something else for it to eat."

Thing is, there's much more evidence to support my scenario then I initially realised, wheras his scenario is simply speculation after speculation on his part. Ah well, you guys did a fine job laying the SmackDown on him!

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-04-09 05:01am

Kuja wrote:
consequences wrote:Example of yes, concrete evidence of one being currently present, not automatically. As far as the Entity is concerned, the lifeforms on-board may be parasites afflicting the computer intelligence controlling the ship. The crew might be bio-engineered, less than sentient slaves, working by rote.
Lore's communications, and likely propaganda to the entity may have furthered this misconception.

Not really likely at all in this case, but within the realm of possibility, especially considering those two examples didn't take me a minute to pull out of my ass.
Then wouldn't it still realize it would be damaging the ship by eating its slaves? Not to mention tearing it apart to get to them?

I did say it didn't take me a minute, right?

Maybe I should have used the remaining twenty-three seconds to double-check my assumptions.

Maybe Lore was ready to beam everyone out to the Entity? Or maybe the thing was just a remorseless sociopathic killing machine, that would have eventually had to be put down?

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-04-09 05:10am

consequences wrote:I did say it didn't take me a minute, right? Maybe I should have used the remaining twenty-three seconds to double-check my assumptions.

Maybe Lore was ready to beam everyone out to the Entity? Or maybe the thing was just a remorseless sociopathic killing machine, that would have eventually had to be put down?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-04-09 05:33am

Kuja wrote:
consequences wrote:I did say it didn't take me a minute, right? Maybe I should have used the remaining twenty-three seconds to double-check my assumptions.

Maybe Lore was ready to beam everyone out to the Entity? Or maybe the thing was just a remorseless sociopathic killing machine, that would have eventually had to be put down?

Hey, everybody's got to run out of BS sometime, right?

Seriously, I threw out my best thoughts, and they were shot down by the evidence. No biggie.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-04-09 08:42am

BTW, I love the thread title.

Though I doubt I have any more to contribute to it...

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-04-09 05:49pm

Robert Walper wrote:BTW, I love the thread title.

Though I doubt I have any more to contribute to it...

Sure you do. Just mention your theory on how the Giant Snowflake (tm) was in league with the Borg...

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2004-04-09 06:30pm

I don't get the implied assumption that being intelligent and murderous are exclusive.
Sympathy and empathy are NOT a given, even among mammals, much less Giant Snowflakes From Hell.
I direct your attention to the Hyena. They cooperate, but turn on each other if it looks like a temperary advantage. They do NOT bond. The female parent will only protect it's ofspring until maturity, then a switch goes off in it's head. They form a pack for purely selfish reasons, and turn on each other in an instant if it is in the interest of the individual. They will kill each other's children when they get the chance.
Many animals on Earth are just as deadly to each other as their prey. They only put aside their mutual hostility for just as long as the overwhelming urge to mate has them in their grip. (Black Widow Spider, Scorpion, ect)
If it reproduces by budding, or dividing, there IS no reason to cooperate, EVEN WITH IT'S OWN KIND, and much to not. There can't be an unlimitted supply of food after all, if it stip mines worlds for food. It will be a long time, (if EVER) before being able to return for a second helping.
This, (Hyena) is a mammal, from Earth, and not all mammals are social. Not some theoretical alien life form.
Many other examples of this are here, right now, on Earth. Not some hypothetical alien. REAL. Walper shows an astonishing level of ignorance about real life creature from Earth, and their nature.

That the SFFH cares about ANTYTHING other than it's appetite is an unfounded assumption, with no evidence! (The very CONCEPT of caring can be alien to it)
Thus "see it, kill it," is a wise policy, if you intend to survive.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-04-10 11:08am

The snowflake somehow reminds me of the space amoeba in TOS. It also feeds of life, and kills everything in it's path. To be more drastic, the crystal snowflake thing in TNG is only a bad copy of the space amoeba!

Now let's see the differences:

Space amoeba:
Kirk at once saw, that it was dangerous and immediatly searched for ways to kill it. When they found it, they used it at once, and blew it to pieces, thus saving countless lives.
It can't prove it, but I bet Kirk got a medal for it.

Crystal Snowflake:
Picard and his crew tried to talk to a murderous killer that only waited to eat them, completly ignorant of it's nature. When the scentist kills it, they treat her like a criminal, dispite the countless lives she had saved.

Very BIG difference for the same case! I bet, Kirk would have had no qualms to destroy the crystal with torpedos to save countless lives.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-04-10 11:20am

YT300000 wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:BTW, I love the thread title.

Though I doubt I have any more to contribute to it...
Sure you do. Just mention your theory on how the Giant Snowflake (tm) was in league with the Borg...

Shh! Don't give away my master plans, young one!

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-04-10 02:57pm

Tribun wrote:The snowflake somehow reminds me of the space amoeba in TOS. It also feeds of life, and kills everything in it's path. To be more drastic, the crystal snowflake thing in TNG is only a bad copy of the space amoeba!

Now let's see the differences:

Space amoeba:
Kirk at once saw, that it was dangerous and immediatly searched for ways to kill it. When they found it, they used it at once, and blew it to pieces, thus saving countless lives.
It can't prove it, but I bet Kirk got a medal for it.

Crystal Snowflake:
Picard and his crew tried to talk to a murderous killer that only waited to eat them, completly ignorant of it's nature. When the scentist kills it, they treat her like a criminal, dispite the countless lives she had saved.

Very BIG difference for the same case! I bet, Kirk would have had no qualms to destroy the crystal with torpedos to save countless lives.

The better parallel is with the Cloud Creature from "Obsession".

KIRK: "Don't you understand? It killed over two hundred crewmen."

McCOY: "Captain Garrovick was pretty special to you, wasn't he?"

KIRK: "He was my commanding officer from the day I left the academy. I could have killed it if I hadn't hesitated."

McCOY: "You don't know that. You don't know that anymore than you know if Garrovick could have destroyed it."

KIRK: "I sensed an intelligence about it. A malevolence. It's evil. It must be destroyed."

. . .

SPOCK: "May I suggest we no longer belabour the question of whether we should have gone after the creature. The matter has been rendered academic. The creature is now after us."

McCOY: "Creature, Mr. Spock?"

SPOCK: "It turned and attacked, doctor. It's method was well considered. And intelligent."