Why?! Why do so many morons worship the Third Reich?

[MKSheppard]

You'll forgive me, but whenever I see anybody extolling the "glories" of Nazi martial prowess, it's always brought me a chuckle or two.

Then what do you say about Kesselring, who turned the war in Italy into
a goddamned bloody stalemate, or about Manstein, who saved the entire
Army Group South from complete destruction following Stalingrad?

Whenever the Allies thought they were just about to win, the germans
managed to miraculously regroup and prolong the war even further, as
opposed to the Italians, Romanians, and Hungarians, who just
basically collapsed when faced with bad choices...

[Steve]

I don't worship the Third Reich, but being a student of History I have a hell of a lot of respect for it.

Pulled Germany from economic basket case to super-power.
Established the strongest army, navy and airforce of the time.
Politicked its way through about 6 invasions of other nations without the rest of the world saying a thing.

Despite some nasty policies and actions the Reich was arguably the most effective, powerful and popular political system of the 20th century.

I don't know whether to scream at you or laugh in your face.

Effective! The Nazi system put up a good illusion of order, but it was in practice hopelessly convuluted and inefficient. Hitler was an absentee ruler, lounging away at his retreats and generally being lazy, and he did not create policies but spoke in terms of his "visions" and entrusted their implementation to his subordinates, who sometimes applied them improperly or in hideous fashion.

The Reich economic recovery was only temporary, and would have ended if not for the war's beginning.

The Third Reich came nowhere near having the strongest navy, the Royal Navy, US Navy, and Nihon Kaigun held that distinction. Their army I'll grant you superiority in, air force as well (Which had the advantage of being independent of the Army and being led by Hitler's loyal toady Goering).

Of course, these advantages evaporated.

As for popular... how? Because it used the toil of others to enrich it's populace?

The Third Reich, while having not killed as many as Communism, killed it's millions in a far more insidious and evil fashion than the Communists did.

At least Communism's great kill count stretches from 1917 to the present! The Reich's enormous count was merely from '33 to '45!

[Patrick Degan]

You'll forgive me, but whenever I see anybody extolling the "glories" of Nazi martial prowess, it's always brought me a chuckle or two.

Then what do you say about Kesselring, who turned the war in Italy into a goddamned bloody stalemate, or about Manstein, who saved the entire Army Group South from complete destruction following Stalingrad?

Nice for them. Ultimately, they were ineffectual toward the final outcome.

Whenever the Allies thought they were just about to win, the germans
managed to miraculously regroup and prolong the war even further, as
opposed to the Italians, Romanians, and Hungarians, who just
basically collapsed when faced with bad choices...

You mean like the Bulge? The last desperate gasp of a defeated dictator —and which only served to accelerate the overall collapse in the East.

[Steve]

Then what do you say about Kesselring, who turned the war in Italy into
a goddamned bloody stalemate, or about Manstein, who saved the entire
Army Group South from complete destruction following Stalingrad?

Kesselring, who was aided not just by terrain but by the stupidity of Mark Clark, and who actively began to figure that stupidity in his planning.

And Manstein, who faced a Soviet army that plowed forward over the numerous bodies of the dead in rather unimaginative fashion. Manstein and Heinrici used that to excellent effect against the Soviets.

Whenever the Allies thought they were just about to win, the germans
managed to miraculously regroup and prolong the war even further, as
opposed to the Italians, Romanians, and Hungarians, who just
basically collapsed when faced with bad choices...

Of course, if Patton had been allowed to close off the Falaise Gap in August '44, and if he had been given supply priority over Montgomery the next month, things would have been a helluva lot different, as the Germans would not have had time to regroup and prolong the war.

The German regrouping in the West was entirely due to the suffrance of the Allies, led as they were by bureaucrats who, at one time, were enraged that Patton had advanced farther than their timetable predicted could be done! Add to that an incompetent logistics general that lived in luxury and wasted gas that could've been used on the front, an Eisenhower afraid to offend the prima donna Montgomery, and a conservative Bradley who had no appreciation of maneuver warfare and was jealous and contemptful of Patton's successes.

I'll admit, though, that I do have some respect for Rommel, who at least had a sense of morals and disobeyed the dishonorable orders given him by his superiors; his growing opposition to Hitler eventually cost him his life.

[weemadando]

I don't know whether to scream at you or laugh in your face.

Effective! The Nazi system put up a good illusion of order, but it was in practice hopelessly convuluted and inefficient. Hitler was an absentee ruler, lounging away at his retreats and generally being lazy, and he did not create policies but spoke in terms of his "visions" and entrusted their implementation to his subordinates, who sometimes applied them improperly or in hideous fashion.

Did I ever say I respected Hitler? I respect the system. How much does Dubya actually do?

The Reich economic recovery was only temporary, and would have ended if not for the war's beginning.

And the US would have been thrid world if it hadn't been for the Cold War.

The Third Reich came nowhere near having the strongest navy, the Royal Navy, US Navy, and Nihon Kaigun held that distinction. Their army I'll grant you superiority in, air force as well (Which had the advantage of being independent of the Army and being led by Hitler's loyal toady Goering).

OK, maybe not the strongest navy, but look at what they did achieve in all facets of the military.

Of course, these advantages evaporated.

As for popular... how? Because it used the toil of others to enrich it's populace?

How else did A PARTY get elected to the notoriously unstable Reichstag during the Weimar Republic on several occassions? There has to be atleast SOME public popularity. And its not until the night of the long knives in 1934 that you can begin arguing that fear campaigns played a role.

I might well ask how popular Dubya is today? And why? Can you speak out against him publicly without risk of a back-lash?

The Third Reich, while having not killed as many as Communism, killed it's millions in a far more insidious and evil fashion than the Communists did.

At least Communism's great kill count stretches from 1917 to the present! The Reich's enormous count was merely from '33 to '45!

That wasn't Communism. That was a despotic regime that was called Communism by its leaders to make the people feel better.

Oh and did I ever proclaim support for the goddamn exterminations and the rest? NO. So stop attempting to strawman me. Even in the slightest.

[MKSheppard]

Thanks, of course, to unimaginative and oft-times incompetent generals like Clark, Zhukov, and Bradley.

Now you've done it...Called Zhukov a incompetent.....the man
who masterminded the whole Operation Uranus and Operation
Little Saturn that destroyed the 6th Army and came within a
hairs-breadth of completely wiping out Army Group South?

*waits for Pablo to leap in*

The timeline for that begins in June '44. And three months later, the Allies had liberated large swaths of France and had driven the Germans back to the Low Countries and toward the Siegfried Line.

All thanks to Patton and his audacity.

Nice way to completely ignore the Italian campaign or the North African
Campaign, Steve.....

Oh, I'm not arguing that the Germans did good against ill-equipped Russian conscripts, some of which who were not even issued rifles and usually only had a handful of rounds, and commanded by a brutally-minded Zhukov who's idea of strategy was "drive forward until all my soldiers are dead or the enemy breaks".

It was precisely that sort of warfare that Patton avoided, preferring to go around the enemy.

Never mind that those "conscripts" were fresh Siberian divisions in
warm clothes against bedraggled german soldiers who only had
their fucking SUMMER clothes to protect against temperatures 30
degrees below FREEZING...

Again, the results don't lie. Against an enemy far more mobile than the Allies of 1940, Patton drove to the Lorraine in a month's time, including stops at Falaise and the Seine thanks to his jealous peers and superiors.

You conviently ignore the effects of the interdiction campaign by the
USAAF against the german rail system and road net. The Germans were
LESS mobile than the french army in 1940 as they had to mostly move
at fucking NIGHT to be safe from the Jabos...

I never said they couldn't do any wrong. That's a strawman attack, and a rather pathetic one. Jesus fuckin' Christ, can't you do better than that?!

Come down from your high horse that the US Soldier can do no wrong,
or do I have to bring up the Phillipine Campaign after 1898 when we
crushed an uprising to our colonial rule?

The Communists, for the most part, wracked up their kill count due to famines, both intended and as a byproduct of their stupid collective system.

Actually no. They shipped people off to siberia, and shot over a million
people in the back of the head during the purges.....they were as bad
as the Germans....Did you know that the SS actually based it's concentration
camp factory system off that of the NKVD's vast Gulag Industries? Where
do you think they got the fucking IDEA from?

The difference between me and you, Shep, is that you worship the fascist, murdering losers, and I worship the badass who beat their asses in.

Then why does the US Military have a fucking hard-on for them? Why did
the US Air Force have Hans Ulrich-Rudel on hand when they rolled the A-10
out even though he was a die hard NAZI who helped Doktor Mengle escape
after WW2?

Why did we change our boot colors from brown to black after WW2? Why
did we go from the GI Helmet to the Coalscuttle helmet in the 80s?

Why did we even make a fucking carbon copy of the MG-42 in the first
place? (that failed because of a manufacturing error making it jam
all the time)

Hell, the M-60 GPMG openly swipes the FG-42's layout and the feed system
of the MG-42, while the 20mm cannons in the F-8 Crusader were direct
descendants of the Mauser Revolver Cannons we swiped in the closing days
of WW2...

Why did we throroughly debrief the German Generals and even HIRE
them to work for us...for fuck's sake, FRANZ HALDER got the highest
award a Civilian can earn from The USA...and he was awarded it by
JFK himself!

[Steve]

Did I ever say I respected Hitler? I respect the system. How much does Dubya actually do?

A helluva lot more than Hitler did.

You don't respect the system, you respect the illusion of it that the Nazis created.

And the US would have been thrid world if it hadn't been for the Cold War.

Actually, no.

My point remains. The German government under Hitler was instigating recovery by public works and the like; the costs of their programs would have caused inflation. The war offset this.

Indeed, the Cold War was not a profitable venture; it eventually bankrupted the USSR and cost the US trillions of dollars over it's forty-plus year span.

OK, maybe not the strongest navy, but look at what they did achieve in all facets of the military.

And what they didn't achieve. Their weapons were hard to mass-produce, had higher maintainaince requirements, and the industry was woefully inefficient; two tanks of the exact same model could not use each other's parts unless they came from the same factory.

Speer tried to offset this, but he came in too late.

How else did A PARTY get elected to the notoriously unstable Reichstag during the Weimar Republic on several occassions? There has to be atleast SOME public popularity. And its not until the night of the long knives in 1934 that you can begin arguing that fear campaigns played a role.

The Nazis, at best, mustered a third of the public vote. Not exactly a majority. They were a vocal and powerful party in the Reichstag, but only by allying with other conservatives did they surpass the Social Democrats in power; it was not until Hitler came to power, combined the Chancellory with the Presidency upon Hindenburg's death, and the Reichstag fire occurred that the Nazis gained complete power.

I might well ask how popular Dubya is today? And why? Can you speak out against him publicly without risk of a back-lash?

I'd say yes. Oh, you'll have his supporters vehemently disagreeing with you, but you'd have that in any open state.

That wasn't Communism. That was a despotic regime that was called Communism by its leaders to make the people feel better.

No, it was Communism. It had all the precepts of Communism, everything Marx called for in a Communist government. You can try to argue it's not, but then you're just proving Communist theory to be the tautology it truly is.

Oh and did I ever proclaim support for the goddamn exterminations and the rest? NO. So stop attempting to strawman me. Even in the slightest.

I never said you did. I'd say you're the one trying to build a strawman in that sense.

[Patrick Degan]

Before this goes any further, Shepp, I must say...

Like the new avatar. Animation's a nice touch.

Keep that one up a while.

[Icehawk]

My grandfather from my mothers side fought for Germany in the last world war. He was actually kinda forced into it being in the Hitler Youth and all but regardless of whatever hatred about Jews they may have tried to spread to him, he didn't take it. He fought with bravery and honor for Germany and Berlin as the Russians and allies closed around. He just did what he had to do regardless of the Government he was fighting for.

Having a family member from that side of the war has allowed me to have a greater respect for those who fought even though they were technically serving an evil regime. The regime and its policies were evil but regardless of all the War crime stories many of the men and woman who fought were no different then you or me and just did what they had to do.

On a side note, even if I never had a relative who fought for Germany I still would have a keen interest in them simply because their technology was so damned cool. I mean come on, Me 262's, Panzers, Mp44 assault rifles, MG42's, V2 missiles and the best looking uniforms out of every army in the war.

In the end though, I don't actually "worship the third reich" or even like its system or policies. But I do have a certain respect for the common soldier and worker who just did what they had to do and worked their asses off to create and design many of the innovative technologies the US and Russia stole and developed upon after the war.

[Steve]

Now you've done it...Called Zhukov a incompetent.....the man
who masterminded the whole Operation Uranus and Operation
Little Saturn that destroyed the 6th Army and came within a
hairs-breadth of completely wiping out Army Group South?

*waits for Pablo to leap in*

*klaxon sounds*

Nope, sorry, wrong answer.

Zhukov was up at the Rzhev salient, leading Operation Mars... where Gotthard Heinrici handed him his head and balls on a silver platter.

Vassilievsky and Ermemenko get the credits for the encirclement and destruction of 6th Army.

Nice way to completely ignore the Italian campaign or the North African
Campaign, Steve.....

Which are immaterial in comparing the German advance of 1940 to the Allied advance of 1944.

Never mind that those "conscripts" were fresh Siberian divisions in
warm clothes against bedraggled german soldiers who only had
their fucking SUMMER clothes to protect against temperatures 30
degrees below FREEZING...

Not all of them were "fresh Siberian divisions"!

And in this case you had German soldiers forced to hold their line by that maniac Fuehrer of their's, which they failed to hold anyway, and when it was all said and done they were at the line they wanted in the first place, but at higher cost thanks to Hitler's bungling. Considering that Hitler's "no retreat" orders were in effect, the German stand becomes a bit less heroic and a bit more stupid.

You conviently ignore the effects of the interdiction campaign by the
USAAF against the german rail system and road net.

Actually, I don't. I did give Harris and Spaatz credit with Patton for ending the war when it was ended.

The Germans were LESS mobile than the french army in 1940 as they had to mostly move at fucking NIGHT to be safe from the Jabos...

They could still move mostly at motorized speeds; the French Army of 1940 was confined primarily to leg power.

Come down from your high horse that the US Soldier can do no wrong,
or do I have to bring up the Phillipine Campaign after 1898 when we
crushed an uprising to our colonial rule?

Another strawman. I never said that the US soldier can do no wrong! You're being a fucking idiot!

Actually no. They shipped people off to siberia, and shot over a million
people in the back of the head during the purges.....they were as bad
as the Germans....Did you know that the SS actually based it's concentration
camp factory system off that of the NKVD's vast Gulag Industries? Where
do you think they got the fucking IDEA from?

So, where were the extermination camps in Soviet Russia?

Then why does the US Military have a fucking hard-on for them? Why did
the US Air Force have Hans Ulrich-Rudel on hand when they rolled the A-10
out even though he was a die hard NAZI who helped Doktor Mengle escape
after WW2?

Because the military is, ultimately, run by professionals, and they take ideas wherever they get them... even if they're from an army that enabled the Nazis to slaughter millions of innocent people and enslave millions more.

Why did we change our boot colors from brown to black after WW2? Why
did we go from the GI Helmet to the Coalscuttle helmet in the 80s?

See above.

Why did we even make a fucking carbon copy of the MG-42 in the first
place? (that failed because of a manufacturing error making it jam
all the time)

See above.

Hell, the M-60 GPMG openly swipes the FG-42's layout and the feed system
of the MG-42, while the 20mm cannons in the F-8 Crusader were direct
descendants of the Mauser Revolver Cannons we swiped in the closing days
of WW2...

See above.

Why did we throroughly debrief the German Generals and even HIRE
them to work for us...for fuck's sake, FRANZ HALDER got the highest
award a Civilian can earn from The USA...and he was awarded it by
JFK himself!

Pragmatism. The Cold War was setting in, and the US wanted to rebuild Germany as a part of their bulwark against the rising Red tide.

Ultimately, though, for a freeman to respect and admire a force of tyranny such as the Wehrmacht, and not give the better admiration to the forces of liberty, particularly Patton and his Third Army, is just completely wrong, and disrespectful to our honored dead.

[Steve]

Icehawk, I don't deny that some Germans were probably decent people who were not as evil as their leaders and peers, but ultimately, respecting a force that fought to enslave and exterminate more than one that sought to liberate and save is, to me, a great unfairness and a slap in the face to those who gave their lives to stop Nazi tyranny.

I sympathize with Germans forced to fight for Hitler, I really do, and for those who fought to keep the Red Horde out of Germany I give just a great a sympathy, particularly when you consider what those Soviet bastards did during their occupation.

[Icehawk]

Icehawk, I don't deny that some Germans were probably decent people who were not as evil as their leaders and peers, but ultimately, respecting a force that fought to enslave and exterminate more than one that sought to liberate and save is, to me, a great unfairness and a slap in the face to those who gave their lives to stop Nazi tyranny.

I never stated that I respect them MORE than the allied forces of liberty. I simply have a certain quasi respect for them that penetrates the common "evil nazi bastards" stereotype that hollywood and much of the modern society has created regarding the German forces of

I sympathize with Germans forced to fight for Hitler, I really do, and for those who fought to keep the Red Horde out of Germany I give just a great a sympathy, particularly when you consider what those Soviet bastards did during their occupation.

Thats good to hear. Unfortunatly it seems not many other people are aware of the attrocities that the Soviets commited during the war and the occupation because its been overshadowed by the fact that the Germans exterminated over 6 million people in camps found by the allies. However the millions that were executed under Stalin and even under other dictators over the past 50 years go almost unnoticed and unnrecognized.

[Darth Wong]

If the Germans were good people, they wouldn't have put Hitler in power in the first place. Contrary to popular belief, his hatemongering attitude was well-known long before he was elected, and they elected him because that's what they wanted. A "good" Christian fundamentalist hatemonger who would bring "righteous" justice to the enemies of the Reich.

This fact is not changed by the fact that Stalin was an evil bastard too.

[Icehawk]

If the Germans were good people, they wouldn't have put Hitler in power in the first place. Contrary to popular belief, his hatemongering attitude was well-known long before he was elected, and they elected him because that's what they wanted . A "good" Christian fundamentalist hatemonger who would bring "righteous" justice to the enemies of the Reich.

That is very true. Hitlers fundie beliefs did play a significant part in winning the favor of the German public. However, at least from the point of view of my grandfather, christianity was not so much the issue as it was compared to the hatred of the Versailles treaty and that the nation was drowning in decay from the depression. The fact Hitler was an ignorant fundie was moreso just the iceing on the cake for the masses I guess you could say.

[weemadando]

If the Germans were good people, they wouldn't have put Hitler in power in the first place. Contrary to popular belief, his hatemongering attitude was well-known long before he was elected, and they elected him because that's what they wanted. A "good" Christian fundamentalist hatemonger who would bring "righteous" justice to the enemies of the Reich.

This fact is not changed by the fact that Stalin was an evil bastard too.

And people voted for Bush despite the fact he is a warmongering fundie moron.

[Darth Wong]

And people voted for Bush despite the fact he is a warmongering fundie moron.

Probably the same half of the population that expressed support for young-earth creationism in a recent Gallup poll, and probably the same half of the population that makes up the <100 half of the IQ curve.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

My grandfather from my mothers side fought for Germany in the last world war. He was actually kinda forced into it being in the Hitler Youth and all but regardless of whatever hatred about Jews they may have tried to spread to him, he didn't take it. He fought with bravery and honor for Germany and Berlin as the Russians and allies closed around. He just did what he had to do regardless of the Government he was fighting for.

Same here on almost all points. He left Russia, moved to the Ukraine, then Germany, then he was drafted. His brother didn't make it that far and was drafted by Russia.

He faught in a war he didn't support. Was shot 3 or 5 times. And when it was over he moved as far west as he could. B.C. Canada.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

And people voted for Bush despite the fact he is a warmongering fundie moron.

Probably the same half of the population that expressed support for young-earth creationism in a recent Gallup poll, and probably the same half of the population that makes up the <100 half of the IQ curve.

HALF! Tell me that poll was in the US, not Canada.

[Cpt_Frank]

If the Germans were good people, they wouldn't have put Hitler in power in the first place. Contrary to popular belief, his hatemongering attitude was well-known long before he was elected, and they elected him because that's what they wanted. A "good" Christian fundamentalist hatemonger who would bring "righteous" justice to the enemies of the Reich.

This fact is not changed by the fact that Stalin was an evil bastard too.

acutally they voted him because the economic situation was bad and since many still had clouded memories of how 'wonderful' and 'good' they were living in the German Empire, they voted him because he would bring back the authoritarian structures they were so attatched to. Not a justification, but an explanation, democracy simply wasn't in the minds of the people at that time.
Otherwise I have to say as the others here do, many of the soldiers were brave men who fought for the wrong cause, so I respect them the same way I respect all the other brave men who fought and died during history, regardless of the side they fought for. I guess it's best to respect the people, but not the force they were part of. You should, though, praise the allied cause.

[Icehawk]

He faught in a war he didn't support. Was shot 3 or 5 times. And when it was over he moved as far west as he could. B.C. Canada.

Cool. He was very lucky to get shot that many times and not get killed. My grandfather was quite lucky in that he only got shot once in the upper part of the leg in the last week of the war. However when he was at the infirmary he almost had his head blown off by some idiot Russian pilot who had been shot down nearby and just wandered into the infirmary threatening to shoot anyone who he thought was "a nazi". He had his pistol aimed right at my grandpa's face but astonishingly the workers there managed to get him out of the place before he was able to kill anyone.

After the war my grandfather stayed in Germany and helped rebuild west Berlin and got married. They decided to move to Canada with some friends in 1956.

[Cpt_Frank]

My grandfather from my mothers side fought for Germany in the last world war. He was actually kinda forced into it being in the Hitler Youth and all but regardless of whatever hatred about Jews they may have tried to spread to him, he didn't take it. He fought with bravery and honor for Germany and Berlin as the Russians and allies closed around. He just did what he had to do regardless of the Government he was fighting for.

Same here on almost all points. He left Russia, moved to the Ukraine, then Germany, then he was drafted. His brother didn't make it that far and was drafted by Russia.

He faught in a war he didn't support. Was shot 3 or 5 times. And when it was over he moved as far west as he could. B.C. Canada.

Same with both of my grandfathers. They weren't fanatical Nazi supporters or Jew haters, yet they were simply forced to serve, it's not as if you had a choice at that time.[/quote]

[salm]

You may like to think we fought for Freedom and Democracy, But we failed time and time agian. Can you name a conflict in which we managed to overthrow a police state or dictatorship and establish democracy? Germany is Socalist, Japan is as Democratic as China is so long have they suffered under Dynastic Rule of one sort or Another, China? They are worse off then when we left them in 1945

According to your standerds we must honor those who fought but not those who lost

And frankly, we have lost

unless you´ve got a completely different definition of socialism, this is the biggest load of bullshit i´ve ever heard!

[Cpt_Frank]

Mr Bean wrote:

You may like to think we fought for Freedom and Democracy, But we failed time and time agian. Can you name a conflict in which we managed to overthrow a police state or dictatorship and establish democracy? Germany is Socalist, Japan is as Democratic as China is so long have they suffered under Dynastic Rule of one sort or Another, China? They are worse off then when we left them in 1945

According to your standerds we must honor those who fought but not those who lost

And frankly, we have lost


unless you´ve got a completely different definition of socialism, this is the biggest load of bullshit i´ve ever heard!

indeed germany's democratic now and that is very good regardless if the current chancellor is member of the social-democratic party.
FYI, this party isn't truly socialist, it's more like UK's labour party.

[salm]

Mr Bean wrote:

You may like to think we fought for Freedom and Democracy, But we failed time and time agian. Can you name a conflict in which we managed to overthrow a police state or dictatorship and establish democracy? Germany is Socalist, Japan is as Democratic as China is so long have they suffered under Dynastic Rule of one sort or Another, China? They are worse off then when we left them in 1945

According to your standerds we must honor those who fought but not those who lost

And frankly, we have lost


unless you´ve got a completely different definition of socialism, this is the biggest load of bullshit i´ve ever heard!

indeed germany's democratic now and that is very good regardless if the current chancellor is member of the social-democratic party.
FYI, this party isn't truly socialist, it's more like UK's labour party.

thanks!

[Mr Bean]

To be fair on the Bush/Gore Issue the election like the last one was realy a choice between "Lesser Evils"

Bush-Pro, at least he stands for the slightly smater party, oh has good advisors
Bush-Con, Pretty much everything relating to thinking


Gore-Pro, at least he won't do anything without first consorting a focus group "Cough" I mean the American people
Gore-His VP who puplicly is on the side of the RIAA, has been know to supress the First Adment FAR worse than Asscroft as done so far,

Basicly he made Ashcroft look like Gandhi when it comes to Rights(Yes he WAS that bad, Oh and he happend to be a Creationist)