McCain proves he's a dumbass

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-04-11 07:15pm

U.S. Fighter Jet Could Die to Help Fund War

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon may have to scrap its premier fighter jet program to help pay for the war in Iraq, Sen. John McCain, an influential member of the Armed Services Committee, said on Sunday.

"It's obvious that we're paying a heavy price, I think, for not having had enough troops there from the beginning," the Arizona Republican said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

McCain said both the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps must be expanded overall, a position at odds with President Bush's administration. The United States has about 135,000 troops in Iraq, a number that McCain said must rise.

As part of a broad overhaul of U.S. priorities, he said, the Pentagon may have to scrap the $71 billion Air Force program to buy F/A-22 air-to-air fighters built by Lockheed Martin Corp. .

"We may have to cancel this airplane that's going to cost between $250 million and $300 million a copy," said McCain, floating what could become a major new legislative hurdle to a top Air Force priority.

McCain led a drive that stalled what has become a $23.5 billion plan to lease up to 20 and buy up to 80 modified Boeing Co. 767s as mid-air refueling tankers. The plan is on hold pending reviews due next month at the Pentagon.

"We've got to change the way we do business and put the priority where it belongs," McCain said. "And that is making sure that we succeed in Iraq."

Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, chairman of the Intelligence committee, said the United States needed more specially trained forces in Iraq.

"People that are in there have to know what the heck we're doing," Roberts said on the CBS program Face the Nation. "If we do have those troops, yes, let's send them."

The Air Force hopes to buy at least 277 F/A-22 fighters, which it describes as key to dominating the skies in future combat. It is about to enter operational testing en route to replacing the F-15C.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has resisted calls for any lasting increase in the U.S. occupation force in Iraq and argued against permanently boosting the size of U.S. armed forces unless sought by military commanders themselves.

Last week, Rumsfeld said the Pentagon may postpone the departure of some troops supposed to be heading home now. The Pentagon originally had planned to decrease the numbers to about 115,000 in coming months.

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McCain is a fucking moron, I just learned that over 30% of the entire
F-15C fleet is unusabul because we cannibalized so many of them
to keep the others running during Clinton's budgetary cuts and
increasing deployments. As it is, the -15C fleet is about 25 years old
now....about the same age the F-4 fleet was when it was replaced
by the Eagle.....

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-04-11 07:22pm

McCain is wrong.

Social programs and discresionary spending needs to go, and we need to draw up an actual plan and time-table for change and withdrawal.

We cannot scrap the F/A-22 now.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-04-11 07:47pm

He's dead wrong.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-04-11 07:53pm

I'm all for improving American air power, but against whom are we likely to be employing these fighters?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2004-04-11 07:56pm

HemlockGrey wrote:I'm all for improving American air power, but against whom are we likely to be employing these fighters?

We could have a run-in with the Chinese.

The Air Force just wants to stay on top of things probably.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-04-11 08:00pm

HemlockGrey wrote:I'm all for improving American air power, but against whom are we likely to be employing these fighters?

How long do you think you can extend the life of a 25-year-old air superiority fighter? These are not B-52s.

They need replacement. They are nearing the end of their concievable service lives. Now one may assert that the F/A-22 is too sophisticated and technowank and that it won't be necessary to fight any percieved enemies for several decades to come. But that hardly matters now, because the fighter is ready for procurement, and canceling it now would be fucking stupid after the money spent and no other replacement. We need to buy it, and at least we can find comfort in the fact we probably can ride this plane out for thirty years.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-04-11 08:03pm

So, just the Chinese, then? What have they got?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-04-11 08:04pm

HemlockGrey wrote:So, just the Chinese, then? What have they got?

Doesn't matter. The F-15C needs to be replaced, and in case you noticed, we haven't got any other air superiority fighter programs.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-04-11 08:04pm

Plus the F-22 is cool as fucking hell. Supercruise baby. Stealthy characteristics. Chinese won't see what's coming. One second they'll be flying around in 20 year old migs, the next, they'll be a rapidly expanding fireball.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-04-11 08:05pm

darthdavid wrote:Plus the F-22 is cool as fucking hell. Supercruise baby. Stealthy characteristics. Chinese won't see what's coming. One second they'll be flying around in 20 year old migs, the next, they'll be a rapidly expanding fireball.

Vympel is going to bitchslap you. And the Chinese are not primitive, and there are some good Sukhoi fighters out there.

And don't disparage the "20 year thing." Anti-Raptor morons including McCain would have us indefinitely ride-out a fighter now at 25 years.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-04-11 08:07pm

Doesn't matter. The F-15C needs to be replaced, and in case you noticed, we haven't got any other air superiority fighter programs.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't get the F-22's, I'm asking if we're likely to use them in the near future.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-04-11 08:16pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
darthdavid wrote:Plus the F-22 is cool as fucking hell. Supercruise baby. Stealthy characteristics. Chinese won't see what's coming. One second they'll be flying around in 20 year old migs, the next, they'll be a rapidly expanding fireball.
Vympel is going to bitchslap you. And the Chinese are not primitive, and there are some good Sukhoi fighters out there.

And don't disparage the "20 year thing." Anti-Raptor morons including McCain would have us indefinitely ride-out a fighter now at 25 years.

You'll note that i'm not an "anti-raptor moron" and a couple of SU-35s Does not an airforce make...

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-04-11 08:17pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Vympel is going to bitchslap you. And the Chinese are not primitive, and there are some good Sukhoi fighters out there.

Actually, no, the chinese ARE primitive screwheads who can't even
reverse engineer anything newer than 20 years. They had to buy
Sukhois after their own domestic fighters couldn't produce anything
that wasn't state of the art.......for 20 years ago.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-04-11 08:23pm

MKSheppard wrote:Actually, no, the chinese ARE primitive screwheads who can't even reverse engineer anything newer than 20 years. They had to buy Sukhois after their own domestic fighters couldn't produce anything
that wasn't state of the art.......for 20 years ago.

That doesn't change the fact that the technology is out there and they could concievably purchase it in the next few decades.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-04-11 08:40pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
Doesn't matter. The F-15C needs to be replaced, and in case you noticed, we haven't got any other air superiority fighter programs.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't get the F-22's, I'm asking if we're likely to use them in the near future.

An attitude like that cost hundreds of thousands of British lives in WW2.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-04-11 08:42pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Actually, no, the chinese ARE primitive screwheads who can't even reverse engineer anything newer than 20 years. They had to buy Sukhois after their own domestic fighters couldn't produce anything
that wasn't state of the art.......for 20 years ago.
That doesn't change the fact that the technology is out there and they could concievably purchase it in the next few decades.

And that doesn't change the fact that by the time they have enough of that tech to pose a threat we'll probably be gearing up or already started on upgrades for the raptor. Besides wich, the SU-35's main advantage over the raptor is in Manuverability. Not that usefull when the raptor can fire off missles at it before it even realizes that there are any bogies in the sky.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-04-11 09:15pm

Howedar wrote:An attitude like that cost hundreds of thousands of British lives in WW2.

That's a bad comparison. With the rising cost of a capable fighter, its pretty obvious which nations can purchase them, maintain them, and train their pilots. It's unlikely the US will ever go to war with them.

darthdavid wrote: You'll note that i'm not an "anti-raptor moron" and a couple of SU-35s Does not an airforce make...

And that doesn't change the fact that by the time they have enough of that tech to pose a threat we'll probably be gearing up or already started on upgrades for the raptor. Besides wich, the SU-35's main advantage over the raptor is in Manuverability. Not that usefull when the raptor can fire off missles at it before it even realizes that there are any bogies in the sky.

Cease and desist before Vympel sees this thread.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-04-11 09:27pm

This is wonderful at showing how horrifically botched this entire spectacle has gotten. It's costing so much we see people in power seriously considering stretching out a tired and obsolete fighter twenty more years? Now, I'll be the first to state the F-22 is probably massive overkill(And anyone looking at the price tag can see how inflated the price is), but what's the alternative? Fly 25-30 year old birds and hope for the best?

Someone remind me why it was so good that America marched into this nearly alone? At least with a larger coalition, one could send bills to other countries, even if they don't pay...

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-04-11 09:30pm

Well, McCain's wrong... I'd still vote for him, though.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-04-11 10:46pm

darthdavid wrote: You'll note that i'm not an "anti-raptor moron" and a couple of SU-35s Does not an airforce make...

China currently has 76 Su-27SK/Su-27UBK aircraft, 76 Su-30MKK aircraft, and 28 Su-30MKK-2 aircraft.

Then there's the contract for Su-30MKK-3 fighters.

Then there's the 'indigenous' (sort of- it's radar/engine is Russian) J-10 to think about (F-16C class).

And finally, there's their licensced production contract for 200 Su-27SKs (J-11)- which is apparently close to half-fulfilled (i.e. 100 J-11s).

So, you have a force of ~380 Su-27SK/Su-30MKK aircraft alone, that's the current position. That's slightly more F-15Cs than the USAF currently has.

Now, these are not Su-35 standard aircraft (the Su-30MKK is no Su-30MKI) but they are still a huge threat to an F-15C, and the standard Su-27SKs can be upgraded to Su-27SKM standard, which are basically Su-30MKK level of capability.

As to the Raptor, I agree that against the Su-35, it will win quite handily in the BVR fight- it has all the necessary advantages. It's the JSF that will die (in both BVR and WVR).

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-04-11 11:09pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
I'm not saying that we shouldn't get the F-22's, I'm asking if we're likely to use them in the near future.

That's unlikely. However just as the F-15 has lasted several decades so will the F/A-22, production won't even be completed until 2013. Ideally the F/A-22 would be even more capabul then it already is, to give the USAF a nice long cusion before it needs a new air supremancy fighter.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2004-04-11 11:18pm

Why not just cut the order down, 277 might be the overkill. As Vympel said the total force the Chinese have aren't F-15 killers and can't compete with the F-22. Also how old are the older SU's the chinese have?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-04-11 11:18pm

McCain is probably trying to show up an administration that has made "no more men on the ground" some kind of sacred-cow policy touchstone.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-04-11 11:21pm

Meest wrote:Why not just cut the order down, 277 might be the overkill. As Vympel said the total force the Chinese have aren't F-15 killers and can't compete with the F-22. Also how old are the older SU's the chinese have?

277 is overkill?

Hehehe, people were bitching about how 400+ was way too low only years ago.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-04-11 11:24pm

Meest wrote:Why not just cut the order down, 277 might be the overkill. As Vympel said the total force the Chinese have aren't F-15 killers and can't compete with the F-22. Also how old are the older SU's the chinese have?

The oldest Sus China has are from the first Russian delivery in 1992. Plenty of service life left. The newest were delivered this year.