LOL, hilarious alternate history

[MKSheppard]

Joe showed this to me, LOL LOL

http://www.tnr.com/easterbrook.mhtml?pid=1545

Washington, april 9, 2004. A hush fell over the city as George W. Bush today became the first president of the United States ever to be removed from office by impeachment. Meeting late into the night, the Senate unanimously voted to convict Bush following a trial on his bill of impeachment from the House.

Moments after being sworn in as the 44th president, Dick Cheney said that disgraced former national security adviser Condoleezza Rice would be turned over to the Hague for trial in the International Court of Justice as a war criminal. Cheney said Washington would "firmly resist" international demands that Bush be extradited for prosecution as well.

On August 7, 2001, Bush had ordered the United States military to stage an all-out attack on alleged terrorist camps in Afghanistan. Thousands of U.S. special forces units parachuted into this neutral country, while air strikes targeted the Afghan government and its supporting military. Pentagon units seized abandoned Soviet air bases throughout Afghanistan, while establishing support bases in nearby nations such as Uzbekistan. Simultaneously, FBI agents throughout the United States staged raids in which dozens of men accused of terrorism were taken prisoner.

Reaction was swift and furious. Florida Senator Bob Graham said Bush had "brought shame to the United States with his paranoid delusions about so-called terror networks." British Prime Minister Tony Blair accused the United States of "an inexcusable act of conquest in plain violation of international law." White House chief counterterrorism advisor Richard Clarke immediately resigned in protest of "a disgusting exercise in over-kill."

When dozens of U.S. soldiers were slain in gun battles with fighters in the Afghan mountains, public opinion polls showed the nation overwhelmingly opposed to Bush's action. Political leaders of both parties called on Bush to withdraw U.S. forces from Afghanistan immediately. "We are supposed to believe that attacking people in caves in some place called Tora Bora is worth the life of even one single U.S. soldier?" former Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey asked.

When an off-target U.S. bomb killed scores of Afghan civilians who had taken refuge in a mosque, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Aznar announced a global boycott of American products. The United Nations General Assembly voted to condemn the United States, and Washington was forced into the humiliating position of vetoing a Security Council resolution declaring America guilty of "criminal acts of aggression."

Bush justified his attack on Afghanistan, and the detention of 19 men of Arab descent who had entered the country legally, on grounds of intelligence reports suggesting an imminent, devastating attack on the United States. But no such attack ever occurred, leading to widespread ridicule of Bush's claims. Speaking before a special commission created by Congress to investigate Bush's anti- terrorism actions, former national security adviser Rice shocked and horrified listeners when she admitted, "We had no actionable warnings of any specific threat, just good reason to believe something really bad was about to happen."

The president fired Rice immediately after her admission, but this did little to quell public anger regarding the war in Afghanistan. When it was revealed that U.S. special forces were also carrying out attacks against suspected terrorist bases in Indonesia and Pakistan, fury against the United States became universal, with even Israel condemning American action as "totally unjustified."

Speaking briefly to reporters on the South Lawn of the White House before a helicopter carried him out of Washington as the first-ever president removed by impeachment, Bush seemed bitter. "I was given bad advice," he insisted. "My advisers told me that unless we took decisive action, thousands of innocent Americans might die. Obviously I should not have listened."

Announcing his candidacy for the 2004 Republican presidential nomination, Senator John McCain said today that "George W. Bush was very foolish and naïve; he didn't realize he was being pushed into this needless conflict by oil interests that wanted to seize Afghanistan to run a pipeline across it." McCain spoke at a campaign rally at the World Trade Center in New York City.

[darthdavid]

*cough*republicanpropaganda*cough*

[CaptainChewbacca]

Very interesting, and shows exactly why all of this "could have been prevented" nonsense is ridiculous. Before Sept. 11, there was no mandate for Bush to persue terror so doggedly.

[Patrick Degan]

Very interesting, and shows exactly why all of this "could have been prevented" nonsense is ridiculous. Before Sept. 11, there was no mandate for Bush to persue terror so doggedly.

Of course, this assumes that preemption was the sole means of preventing a terrorist attack on the United States in 2001.

[darthdavid]

Yeah. 'cause ya know it's not like shrubby coulada, i dunno, DONE FUCKING SOMETHING, ANYTHING, RATHER THAN FUCKING SIT ON THE GODDAMN INFO!!!

[Mr Bean]

I'm going to take this one to work with me today

[KrauserKrauser]

Yeah. 'cause ya know it's not like shrubby coulada, i dunno, DONE FUCKING SOMETHING, ANYTHING, RATHER THAN FUCKING SIT ON THE GODDAMN INFO!!!

Like what? Harden the cockpits? No don't think would have been applied in the one month time frame that the memo gave.

Issue travel restrictions and increased airport security? Would not have stopped the terrorists and would only have lowered the country's opinion of the Pres. The items that the terrorists brought on board were legal and would not have been siezed until after 9-11

Pre-Emptive strikes? Right, everyone would have gone along with that.

Taking special actions against possible islamic radicals in the US, the ones we knew about anyway? Right, that would have gone over well in the public's eyes and in the end again would not stop the terrorists from commiting 9-11.

The Bush administration got word that there could be at some time in the future be an attack by Al-Qadeua (spelling?) within the US. It might be planes, it might be commandeered planes, it might not even involve planes at all. Somehow you expect the Pres to be willing to make the broad sweeping changes necessary to prevent 9-11 without 9-11 happening. That simply would not have flown in the pre-9-11 atmosphere, both publically and politically.

[Darth Wong]

Nice argument. Too bad it relies upon a black/white fallacy between total inaction bordering on criminal negligence and a massive invasion.

[Patrick Degan]

Yeah. 'cause ya know it's not like shrubby coulada, i dunno, DONE FUCKING SOMETHING, ANYTHING, RATHER THAN FUCKING SIT ON THE GODDAMN INFO!!!

Like what? Harden the cockpits? No don't think would have been applied in the one month time frame that the memo gave.

Issue travel restrictions and increased airport security? Would not have stopped the terrorists and would only have lowered the country's opinion of the Pres. The items that the terrorists brought on board were legal and would not have been siezed until after 9-11

Pre-Emptive strikes? Right, everyone would have gone along with that.

Taking special actions against possible islamic radicals in the US, the ones we knew about anyway? Right, that would have gone over well in the public's eyes and in the end again would not stop the terrorists from commiting 9-11.

The Bush administration got word that there could be at some time in the future be an attack by Al-Qadeua (spelling?) within the US. It might be planes, it might be commandeered planes, it might not even involve planes at all. Somehow you expect the Pres to be willing to make the broad sweeping changes necessary to prevent 9-11 without 9-11 happening. That simply would not have flown in the pre-9-11 atmosphere, both publically and politically.

Nice bullshit argument, but it doesn't fly. Eight months of intelligence warnings of increasing detail and danger were ignored, and the Air Force was on stand-down condition. Paying attention to the currents of warning and taking appropriate defensive measures —including bringing Tactical Command back up to Ready status— saves two big officer towers and 2800 lives.

Oh, and yes it is expected the president orders his cabinet and the appropriate agencies to make the needed changes. Because THAT'S HIS FUCKING JOB!

[Glocksman]

Nice bullshit argument, but it doesn't fly. Eight months of intelligence warnings of increasing detail and danger were ignored, and the Air Force was on stand-down condition. Paying attention to the currents of warning and taking appropriate defensive measures —including bringing Tactical Command back up to Ready status— saves two big officer towers and 2800 lives.

Oh, and yes it is expected the president orders his cabinet and the appropriate agencies to make the needed changes. Because THAT'S HIS FUCKING JOB!

And just what could the Air Force have done to prevent 9/11?
Shoot the planes down because they've been hijacked?

Yeah right. No one would believe the suicide plane allegations (assuming that specific data on targets had been developed). Not with every other previous US hijacking winding up being settled on the ground.

The key item from the August 6 PDB is that the FBI already had 70 separate investigations going into al-Qaida activity in the US.

The problem was that the bureaucrats back in DC didn't pay attention to the data coming in from the agents in the field. Commissioner Gorelick touched on this problem in her questioning of Dr. Rice.

Bush in this instance trusted the FBI to do its job and the Washington headquarters let both the President and the agents in the field down spectacularly. If you're looking for a scapegoat for 9/11, look no farther than former FBI director (and fucking glory hound) Louis Freeh and his 'management' culture that was still in place when 9/11 happened.

I don't like Bush and I won't vote for him, but some of you are letting your dislike of Bush override your judgement. Robert Fisk could write that Bush eats babies and burns candles to Satan, and a lot of you would believe it without question.

[Patrick Degan]

Nice bullshit argument, but it doesn't fly. Eight months of intelligence warnings of increasing detail and danger were ignored, and the Air Force was on stand-down condition. Paying attention to the currents of warning and taking appropriate defensive measures —including bringing Tactical Command back up to Ready status— saves two big officer towers and 2800 lives.

Oh, and yes it is expected the president orders his cabinet and the appropriate agencies to make the needed changes. Because THAT'S HIS FUCKING JOB!

And just what could the Air Force have done to prevent 9/11?
Shoot the planes down because they've been hijacked?

Yes. That's their job and it's in the law.

Yeah right. No one would believe the suicide plane allegations (assuming that specific data on targets had been developed). Not with every other previous US hijacking winding up being settled on the ground.

Any plane that departs its prescribed flightpath without warning or explanation is an automatic red-flag.

The key item from the August 6 PDB is that the FBI already had 70 separate investigations going into al-Qaida activity in the US.

Nice argument except for the fact that there had been eight months worth of warnings from six foreign intelligence agencies in addition to the information already collected by the FBI and the CIA. This in addition to the August 6 PDB.

The problem was that the bureaucrats back in DC didn't pay attention to the data coming in from the agents in the field. Commissioner Gorelick touched on this problem in her questioning of Dr. Rice.

And yet somehow, someway, this sort of bureaucratic inertia didn't block Team Clinton from stopping the Millenium bomb-plot dead in its tracks with far less lead-time to figure out what was going on and act on it. Y'see, this is what happens when you apply something called "coordination". Frankly, Dr. Rice's version of events simply does not bear close examination.

Bush in this instance trusted the FBI to do its job and the Washington headquarters let both the President and the agents in the field down spectacularly. If you're looking for a scapegoat for 9/11, look no farther than former FBI director (and fucking glory hound) Louis Freeh and his 'management' culture that was still in place when 9/11 happened.

And yet somehow, someway, that same FBI leadership were instrumental in stopping the Millenium bomb-plot dead in its tracks less than two years earlier with far less lead-time to figure out what was going on and act on it.

I don't like Bush and I won't vote for him, but some of you are letting your dislike of Bush override your judgement. Robert Fisk could write that Bush eats babies and burns candles to Satan, and a lot of you would believe it without question.

No, it is the demonstrable fact of this so-called president's incompetence, negligence, and dishonesty that fuels the hatred.

[Glocksman]

Yes. That's their job and it's in the law.

Sure, and what about the proof that these planes were on suicide missions? Oh, that's right. There was none until they started colliding with the WTC.

Without proof of a suicide mission, what AF commander pre 9/11 was going to order the shooting down of a civilian airliner?

Nice argument except for the fact that there had been eight months worth of warnings from six foreign intelligence agencies in addition to the information already collected by the FBI and the CIA. This in addition to the August 6 PDB.

And which of the warnings stated that on 9/11, hijackers would kamikaze airliners into the WTC?

And yet somehow, someway, this sort of bureaucratic inertia didn't block Team Clinton from stopping the Millenium bomb-plot dead in its tracks with far less lead-time to figure out what was going on and act on it. Y'see, this is what happens when you apply something called "coordination". Frankly, Dr. Rice's version of events simply does not bear close examination.

Team Clinton and the FBI didn't stop it. A single alert customs agent stopped it. For all of the debating going on in DC, that terrorist almost made it in. Subsequent investigations revealed the extent of the plot.

From the transcript:

RICE:But I will tell you this. I will say this. That the millennium, of course, was a period of high threat by its very nature. We all knew that the millennium was a period of high threat.

And after September 11th, Dick Clarke sent us the after-action report that had been done after the millennium plot and their assessment was that Ressam had been caught by chance _ Ressam being the person who was entering the United States over the Canadian border with bomb-making materials in store.

I think it actually wasn't by chance, which was Washington's view of it. It was because a very alert customs agent named Diana Dean and her colleagues sniffed something about Ressam. They saw that something was wrong. They tried to apprehend him. He tried to run. They then apprehended him, found that there was bomb-making material and a map of Los Angeles.

Now, at that point, you have pretty clear indication that you've got a problem inside the United States.

I don't think it was shaking the trees that produced the breakthrough in the millennium plot. It was that you got a _ Dick Clarke would say a lucky break _ I would say you got an alert customs agent who got it right.

And the interesting thing is that I've checked with Customs and according to their records, they weren't actually on alert at that point.

GORELICK: And it is clear that you were worried about the domestic problem, because, after all, your testimony is you asked Dick Clarke to summons the domestic agencies.

Now, you say that _ and I think quite rightly _ that the big problem was systemic, that the FBI could not function as it should, and it didn't have the right methods of communicating with the CIA and vice versa.

At the outset of the administration, a commission that was chartered by Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich, two very different people covering pretty much the political spectrum, put together a terrific panel to study the issue of terrorism and report to the new administration as it began. And you took that briefing, I know.

That commission said we are going to get hit in the domestic, the United States, and we are going to get hit big; that's number one. And number two, we have big systemic problems. The FBI doesn't work the way it should, and it doesn't communicate with the intelligence community.

So much for the FBI preventing the bomb plot.

[Ma Deuce]

Any plane that departs its prescribed flightpath without warning or explanation is an automatic red-flag.

Actaully they did notice, and ANG F-15As were scrambled to reundevous with the airliners after this happened (of course they still believed it was a "normal" hijacking, so they were supposed to merely escort the airliners to wherever they were now heading), but were still a fair distance from the airliners when they hit their targets. Also, a USAF F-16 was already on it's way to intercept Flight 93 (this time it had orders to shoot it down) well before it finally crashed in Pennsylvania.

[Patrick Degan]

Yes. That's their job and it's in the law.

Sure, and what about the proof that these planes were on suicide missions? Oh, that's right. There was none until they started colliding with the WTC.

Do you have any idea how inane that excuse is? That's like saying that JFK and EXCOMM should have waited for "proof" about just what the Soviets were going to do with those missiles they were setting up on Cuba before being silly enough to slap up that naval blockade when they did.

Without proof of a suicide mission, what AF commander pre 9/11 was going to order the shooting down of a civilian airliner?

Actually, that's the President who gives that order.

Nice argument except for the fact that there had been eight months worth of warnings from six foreign intelligence agencies in addition to the information already collected by the FBI and the CIA. This in addition to the August 6 PDB.

And which of the warnings stated that on 9/11, hijackers would kamikaze airliners into the WTC?

And we're right back to not having "proof" about what those missiles on Cuba were going to be used for, aren't we? What's next? You regurgitating Condi's drivel from two years ago about how nobody even imagined airliners being used as missiles by hijackers?

And yet somehow, someway, this sort of bureaucratic inertia didn't block Team Clinton from stopping the Millenium bomb-plot dead in its tracks with far less lead-time to figure out what was going on and act on it. Y'see, this is what happens when you apply something called "coordination". Frankly, Dr. Rice's version of events simply does not bear close examination.

Team Clinton and the FBI didn't stop it. A single alert customs agent stopped it. For all of the debating going on in DC, that terrorist almost made it in. Subsequent investigations revealed the extent of the plot.

From the transcript:

RICE:But I will tell you this. I will say this. That the millennium, of course, was a period of high threat by its very nature. We all knew that the millennium was a period of high threat.

And after September 11th, Dick Clarke sent us the after-action report that had been done after the millennium plot and their assessment was that Ressam had been caught by chance _ Ressam being the person who was entering the United States over the Canadian border with bomb-making materials in store.

I think it actually wasn't by chance, which was Washington's view of it. It was because a very alert customs agent named Diana Dean and her colleagues sniffed something about Ressam. They saw that something was wrong. They tried to apprehend him. He tried to run. They then apprehended him, found that there was bomb-making material and a map of Los Angeles.

Now, at that point, you have pretty clear indication that you've got a problem inside the United States.

I don't think it was shaking the trees that produced the breakthrough in the millennium plot. It was that you got a _ Dick Clarke would say a lucky break _ I would say you got an alert customs agent who got it right.

And the interesting thing is that I've checked with Customs and according to their records, they weren't actually on alert at that point.

So much for the FBI preventing the bomb plot.

Um, ahem:

Linky

December 14, 1999: Al-Qaeda terrorist Ahmed Ressam is arrested in Port Angeles, Washington, attempting to enter the US with components of explosive devices. 130 pounds of bomb-making chemicals and detonator components are found inside his rental car. He subsequently admits he planned to bomb Los Angeles International Airport on December 31, 1999. [New York Times, 12/30/01] This would have been part of a wave of attacks against US targets over the New Year's weekend. He is later connected to al-Qaeda and convicted, but he still hasn't been formally sentenced. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 9/18/02, PBS Frontline 10/3/02]

December 14-31, 1999: In the wake of the arrest of Ahmed Ressam (see December 14, 1999), FBI investigators work frantically to uncover more millennium plots before they are likely to take place at the end of the year. Documents found with Ressam lead to coconspirators in New York, then Boston and Seattle. Enough people are arrested to prevent any attacks. National Security Council Chief of Counterterrorism Richard Clarke later says, "I think a lot of the FBI leadership for the first time realized that ... there probably were al-Qaeda people in the United States. They realized that only after they looked at the results of the investigation of the millennium bombing plot." [PBS Frontline, 10/3/02] Yet Clinton's National Security Adviser Sandy Berger says, "Until the very end of our time in office, the view we received from the [FBI] was that al-Qaeda had limited capacity to operate in the US and any presence here was under surveillance." No analysis is done before 9/11 to investigate just how big that presence might be. [Washington Post, 9/20/02]

Not one attack, a wave of attacks.

So much for Condi's self-serving blather.

[KrauserKrauser]

And all of those arrests for the bomb plot were because of what? Oh yeah random chance that the customs agent felt something suspicious.

Sorry the millenium bomb plot was stopped because that one customs agent lead to the information necessary to stop it before it began. Last time I checked we didn't have any customs agents finding specific, easy to follow information leading to the exact people that would commit 9-11.

The only way the president could have known that 9-11 was going to take place on 9-11 and who would be involved is to have had the kind of specific information that was found for the mill. bomb plot.

[Glocksman]

Do you have any idea how inane that excuse is? That's like saying that JFK and EXCOMM should have waited for "proof" about just what the Soviets were going to do with those missiles they were setting up on Cuba before being silly enough to slap up that naval blockade when they did.

False analogy.

It was already proven that the Sovs were setting up nuclear missiles in Cuba via U2 overflights before Kennedy initiated the blockade. There was no proof that AQ intended to use these airliners as manned cruise missiles until they crashed into the WTC.

And we're right back to not having "proof" about what those missiles on Cuba were going to be used for, aren't we? What's next? You regurgitating Condi's drivel from two years ago about how nobody even imagined airliners being used as missiles by hijackers?

Oh, I'm sure it was imagined. After all, I'm sure someone in DC read Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor. However there's a damn sight difference between imagining it and ordering the Air Force to shoot down a civilian airliner after a hijacking based on vague reports that it might be used as a suicide weapon.

Your argument would hold more weight if this had happened before. But it hadn't. But let's say that he did order them shot down and the WTC still stands. Then what? Would all of the reflexive Bush haters accuse him of being 'quick on the trigger' and a mass murderer for shooting the airliners down instead of negotiating with the hijackers or giving the FBI's HRT time to rescue the hostages on the ground?

Damn right they would. At the time, there was nothing in those 'warnings' that would have justified ordering a hijacked airliner being shot down.

Actually, that's the President who gives that order.

How? He wasn't even informed of the hijackings until the first planes crashed into the WTC.

December 14, 1999: Al-Qaeda terrorist Ahmed Ressam is arrested in Port Angeles, Washington, attempting to enter the US with components of explosive devices. 130 pounds of bomb-making chemicals and detonator components are found inside his rental car. He subsequently admits he planned to bomb Los Angeles International Airport on December 31, 1999. [New York Times, 12/30/01] This would have been part of a wave of attacks against US targets over the New Year's weekend. He is later connected to al-Qaeda and convicted, but he still hasn't been formally sentenced. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 9/18/02, PBS Frontline 10/3/02]

December 14-31, 1999: In the wake of the arrest of Ahmed Ressam (see December 14, 1999), FBI investigators work frantically to uncover more millennium plots before they are likely to take place at the end of the year. Documents found with Ressam lead to coconspirators in New York, then Boston and Seattle. Enough people are arrested to prevent any attacks. National Security Council Chief of Counterterrorism Richard Clarke later says, "I think a lot of the FBI leadership for the first time realized that ... there probably were al-Qaeda people in the United States. They realized that only after they looked at the results of the investigation of the millennium bombing plot." [PBS Frontline, 10/3/02] Yet Clinton's National Security Adviser Sandy Berger says, "Until the very end of our time in office, the view we received from the [FBI] was that al-Qaeda had limited capacity to operate in the US and any presence here was under surveillance." No analysis is done before 9/11 to investigate just how big that presence might be. [Washington Post, 9/20/02]

As KrauserKrauser stated: "And all of those arrests for the bomb plot were because of what? Oh yeah random chance that the customs agent felt something suspicious."


Even Sandy Berger said that 'Until the very end of our time in office, the view we received from the [FBI] was that al-Qaeda had limited capacity to operate in the US and any presence here was under surveillance.'

I don't think Sandy Berger is a White House shill.

[Patrick Degan]

Do you have any idea how inane that excuse is? That's like saying that JFK and EXCOMM should have waited for "proof" about just what the Soviets were going to do with those missiles they were setting up on Cuba before being silly enough to slap up that naval blockade when they did.

False analogy.

It was already proven that the Sovs were setting up nuclear missiles in Cuba via U2 overflights before Kennedy initiated the blockade. There was no proof that AQ intended to use these airliners as manned cruise missiles until they crashed into the WTC.

No it's not a false analogy. Rather, it's you attempting to present an impossible burden-of-proof in a situation where there is already very reasonable suspicion that multiple planes being flown off radar and heading in toward major population centres and very clearly was not a normal hijacking situation by any means.

And we're right back to not having "proof" about what those missiles on Cuba were going to be used for, aren't we? What's next? You regurgitating Condi's drivel from two years ago about how nobody even imagined airliners being used as missiles by hijackers?

Oh, I'm sure it was imagined. After all, I'm sure someone in DC read Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor. However there's a damn sight difference between imagining it and ordering the Air Force to shoot down a civilian airliner after a hijacking based on vague reports that it might be used as a suicide weapon.

It was not merely "imagined" —the CIA had already projected this very possibility as early as 1994. The CIA, not Tom Fucking Clancy. There were even periodic drills regarding this scenario.

Your argument would hold more weight if this had happened before. But it hadn't. But let's say that he did order them shot down and the WTC still stands. Then what? Would all of the reflexive Bush haters accuse him of being 'quick on the trigger' and a mass murderer for shooting the airliners down instead of negotiating with the hijackers or giving the FBI's HRT time to rescue the hostages on the ground?

Sure, it's a hard decision. There's probably no way Bush can escape being tagged as a murderer as a result. That's not the point. According to your logic here, the president cannot act because the "reflexive haters" will toss accusations at him.

Actually, that's the President who gives that order.

How? He wasn't even informed of the hijackings until the first planes crashed into the WTC.

Gee... maybe if he hadn't been on vacation for a whole fucking month even as the intel was flowing in of a serious Al-Qaeda plot and not in some Florida schoolroom keeping company with eight-year olds, he might have been better informed...?

December 14, 1999: Al-Qaeda terrorist Ahmed Ressam is arrested in Port Angeles, Washington, attempting to enter the US with components of explosive devices. 130 pounds of bomb-making chemicals and detonator components are found inside his rental car. He subsequently admits he planned to bomb Los Angeles International Airport on December 31, 1999. [New York Times, 12/30/01] This would have been part of a wave of attacks against US targets over the New Year's weekend. He is later connected to al-Qaeda and convicted, but he still hasn't been formally sentenced. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 9/18/02, PBS Frontline 10/3/02]

December 14-31, 1999: In the wake of the arrest of Ahmed Ressam (see December 14, 1999), FBI investigators work frantically to uncover more millennium plots before they are likely to take place at the end of the year. Documents found with Ressam lead to coconspirators in New York, then Boston and Seattle. Enough people are arrested to prevent any attacks. National Security Council Chief of Counterterrorism Richard Clarke later says, "I think a lot of the FBI leadership for the first time realized that ... there probably were al-Qaeda people in the United States. They realized that only after they looked at the results of the investigation of the millennium bombing plot." [PBS Frontline, 10/3/02] Yet Clinton's National Security Adviser Sandy Berger says, "Until the very end of our time in office, the view we received from the [FBI] was that al-Qaeda had limited capacity to operate in the US and any presence here was under surveillance." No analysis is done before 9/11 to investigate just how big that presence might be. [Washington Post, 9/20/02]

As KrauserKrauser stated: "And all of those arrests for the bomb plot were because of what? Oh yeah random chance that the customs agent felt something suspicious.

That rather misses the point. The plain fact is that an alert and focussed White House ran with that bit of information and prevented a wave of bombing attacks which were the main object of the Millenium plot. You have no argument.

Even Sandy Berger said that 'Until the very end of our time in office, the view we received from the [FBI] was that al-Qaeda had limited capacity to operate in the US and any presence here was under surveillance.'

I don't think Sandy Berger is a White House shill.

Nice little cherry-pick through the evidence. Pity that the first arrest of the would-be LAX bomber was not the end of the story.

The investigation uncovered the rest of the plot. It was stopped. You have no argument.

[Dark Hellion]

Maybe I am just really dense, but didn't most of the hijackers have illegal visas? If they did, couldn't they just arrest/deport them and at least mess up the schedule for the attack? Or maybe I am just an idiot and missing somehting.

[Glocksman]

Gee... maybe if he hadn't been on vacation for a whole fucking month even as the intel was flowing in of a serious Al-Qaeda plot and not in some Florida schoolroom keeping company with eight-year olds, he might have been better informed...? [/code]

So he should stay in the White House 24/7 waiting for a possible attack?

Riight.

You're forgetting that no matter where he is, the President isn't 'out of touch'. He could be sitting on the Presidential crapper and if something important happens, he'll be notified immediately.

The fact of the matter is that he wasn't notified of the crisis until after the first plane had crashed into the towers.

His geographic location had no bearing on that fact, unless you think the White House Communications Agency is made up of incompetents.

Rather, it's you attempting to present an impossible burden-of-proof in a situation where there is already very reasonable suspicion that multiple planes being flown off radar and heading in toward major population centres and very clearly was not a normal hijacking situation by any means.

Impossible burden of proof my ass.

In 1970 the Palestinans performed multiple hijackings (and blew up the planes in the Jordanian desert) in a very short time frame without using the planes as suicide weapons.

Multiple hijackings don't automatically equal 'suicide mission'.

And as far as heading towards 'major population centers' goes, just where do you think the majority of the airports capable of handling large commercial airliners are?

Certainly not in West Bumfuck, Ohio.

All the White House had were vague warnings about hijack plots, vague reports of AQ wanting to strike the US and a vague report that AQ might have planned on crashing an airliner filled with explosives into a G8 summit 3 years previously.

Pre 9/11, all of this vague unconnected information did not equal enough evidence to order the shooting down of 4 hijacked airliners.

To say that it does is exercising hindsight.

Sure, it's a hard decision. There's probably no way Bush can escape being tagged as a murderer as a result. That's not the point. According to your logic here, the president cannot act because the "reflexive haters" will toss accusations at him.

No, what I am saying is that the available evidence didn't justify ordering the shooting down of those airliners.

The plain fact is that an alert and focussed White House ran with that bit of information and prevented a wave of bombing attacks which were the main object of the Millenium plot. You have no argument.

The information the White House 'ran with' included 'Documents found with Ressam lead to coconspirators in New York, then Boston and Seattle'. It's one thing to have this kind of evidence (Ressam and a coconspirator cooperated with the government, btw) and have a fruitful investigation and quite another to have one with the vague warnings and hints that the government had pre 9/11.

You're the one that has no argument.

Nice little cherry-pick through the evidence.

Cherry pick? It came out right of your own post.

Not that it would make much difference if it was a cherry pick because Berger did say it, he was in a position to know and he's certainly not biased in favor of Bush.

[Glocksman]

Maybe I am just really dense, but didn't most of the hijackers have illegal visas? If they did, couldn't they just arrest/deport them and at least mess up the schedule for the attack? Or maybe I am just an idiot and missing somehting

That would have required the government to actually do something about the illegal immigration problem, and God know we don't want to be accused of being racists, do we?

Here's an interesting tidbit from the Rice hearing:

LEHMAN: Were you aware that it was the policy of the Justice Department _ and I'd like you to comment as to whether these continuities are still in place _ before I go to Justice, were you aware that it was the policy and I believe remains the policy today to fine airlines if they have more than two young Arab males in secondary questioning because that's discriminatory?

[Patrick Degan]

Gee... maybe if he hadn't been on vacation for a whole fucking month even as the intel was flowing in of a serious Al-Qaeda plot and not in some Florida schoolroom keeping company with eight-year olds, he might have been better informed...?

So he should stay in the White House 24/7 waiting for a possible attack?

Riight.

Um, yes. That's what responsible Commanders-in-Chief actually do. I'm sorry this is beyond your intellectual grasp.

You're forgetting that no matter where he is, the President isn't 'out of touch'. He could be sitting on the Presidential crapper and if something important happens, he'll be notified immediately.

The fact of the matter is that he wasn't notified of the crisis until after the first plane had crashed into the towers.

Riiight —when he's about to go in and entertain a bunch of second-graders instead of cancelling the event and getting on the phone with somebody. Your examples hardly bolster his case. Or yours.

His geographic location had no bearing on that fact, unless you think the White House Communications Agency is made up of incompetents.

No, it's Bush's incompetence we're discussing here

Rather, it's you attempting to present an impossible burden-of-proof in a situation where there is already very reasonable suspicion that multiple planes being flown off radar and heading in toward major population centres and very clearly was not a normal hijacking situation by any means.

Impossible burden of proof my ass.

In 1970 the Palestinans performed multiple hijackings (and blew up the planes in the Jordanian desert) in a very short time frame without using the planes as suicide weapons.

Multiple hijackings don't automatically equal 'suicide mission'.

Now who's commiting a False Analogy Fallacy? Those planes were blown up on the ground and after the passengers had been evacuated. Furthermore, that event was unprecedented and there had been no advanced warning of any sort prior to the hijack.

And as far as heading towards 'major population centers' goes, just where do you think the majority of the airports capable of handling large commercial airliners are?

Certainly not in West Bumfuck, Ohio.

That's why a decision is required. And not one constrained by consideration of what will least piss-off the "reflexive haters".

All the White House had were vague warnings about hijack plots, vague reports of AQ wanting to strike the US and a vague report that AQ might have planned on crashing an airliner filled with explosives into a G8 summit 3 years previously.

Pre 9/11, all of this vague unconnected information did not equal enough evidence to order the shooting down of 4 hijacked airliners.

Intel coming in for eight months in increasing detail is "vague". Interesting redefintion.

Sure, it's a hard decision. There's probably no way Bush can escape being tagged as a murderer as a result. That's not the point. According to your logic here, the president cannot act because the "reflexive haters" will toss accusations at him.

No, what I am saying is that the available evidence didn't justify ordering the shooting down of those airliners.

Then what justified the shooting down of the fourth plane? There was no "solid evidence" in that case anymore than there had been for the other three planes.

The plain fact is that an alert and focussed White House ran with that bit of information and prevented a wave of bombing attacks which were the main object of the Millenium plot. You have no argument.

The information the White House 'ran with' included 'Documents found with Ressam lead to coconspirators in New York, then Boston and Seattle'. It's one thing to have this kind of evidence (Ressam and a coconspirator cooperated with the government, btw) and have a fruitful investigation and quite another to have one with the vague warnings and hints that the government had pre 9/11.

You're the one that has no argument.

No, I'd have no argument if the Ressam arrest had been the end of the story. It was not. The LAX bombing would have been part of a wave of attacks that still would have taken place had the Feds not followed up on the investigation after the initial arrest.

Nice little cherry-pick through the evidence.

Cherry pick? It came out right of your own post.

Not that it would make much difference if it was a cherry pick because Berger did say it, he was in a position to know and he's certainly not biased in favor of Bush.

Which makes no fucking difference as to the fact that a wave of bombing attacks planned for the Millenium were stopped becaue the government were alert enough to follow up, investigate, and take action to stop them which is the point of the quoted article. So you can put away your Sandy Berger Red Herring now.

[MKSheppard]

Yes. That's their job and it's in the law.

Actually, bush did give the order for shootdowns, once it became
clear that these were not run of the mill hijackings.

Jesus Christ, Why is it everyone assumes that the government knew
that those hijackings were with the intention of plowing them into
buildings with everyone still aboard, instead of just flying them to
a bumfuck African country to hold everyone hostage for releasing
political prisoners as had happened in virtually every other hijacking?

A 9/11 style attack will never ever happen again, simply because
the government will either shoot the plane down, or the passengers
will simply pile on the hijackers to stop them at whatever cost.

[MKSheppard]

Um, yes. That's what responsible Commanders-in-Chief actually do. I'm sorry this is beyond your intellectual grasp.

I'm sorry to report that Bush had an entire schoolroom in that florida
School packed jam full of communications equipment as was the SOP
for wherever the president goes; and unfortunately he hasn't ever lost
the nuclear football once.

[MKSheppard]

And that instead of flying around on Air Force One, which due to a major
technical glitch, wasn't capable of communicating with the military, etc
on 9/11, with his thumbs up his ass, Bush flew to a variety of military
bases which had secure communications facilities that he could use.....

Oh and that was all part of the Armageddon plan too

[MKSheppard]

Sure, and what about the proof that these planes were on suicide missions? Oh, that's right. There was none until they started colliding with the WTC.

[/quote]

You generally try not to kill several hundred people with an Air National
Guard AIM-9 Sidewinder up their aircraft's engines without concrete proof,
y'know? Careers are broken, presidencies destroyed over that kind of stuff.