B5 First Ones info

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-04-13 03:59pm

Like teh title says, i'm wondering if anyone has any info on the First Ones, or knows of anywhere i can get some.

Like who they were, where they came from, and what their abilities were. It seems after watching tons of B5 i know everything about the Shadows and Vorlons and jack shit about their breathern.

So, any info or links would be appreciated.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-04-13 04:08pm

Be warned, spoilerage for season 4 follows:

The 'First Ones' are Lorien's race, the oldest life forms, followed by the Shadows, the Walkers of Sigma 957 and then the others, in no particular order. Lorien's race (and Lorien himself) are highly respected by the first ones, and he was, IIRC the reason the Shadows remained on Z'ha'dum, and the Vorlons never destroyed it while the shadows hibernated.

The various other First Ones had sided with the Vorlons against the Shadows before, but eventually lost interest, though six of them sent ships to the battle of Corina 6 to destroy the Vorlon Planet Killer, which they did with commendable efficiency, before proceeding to provide no other help. At some point the Vorlons managed to get the other First Ones thinking they were complete assholes (presumably the Vorlons weren't always "You will fight and die because we tell you to!" types...)

Eventually, all the First Ones buggered off 'beyond the rim' to leave the young races to their own business, after some verbal humiliation from Sheridan and Lorien.

Melkor · Post by **Melkor** » 2004-04-13 04:12pm

NecronLord wrote:Be warned, spoilerage for season 4 follows:

The 'First Ones' are Lorien's race, the oldest life forms, followed by the Shadows, the Walkers of Sigma 957 and then the others, in no particular order. Lorien's race (and Lorien himself) are highly respected by the first ones, and he was, IIRC the reason the Shadows remained on Z'ha'dum, and the Vorlons never destroyed it while the shadows hibernated.

The various other First Ones had sided with the Vorlons against the Shadows before, but eventually lost interest, though six of them sent ships to the battle of Corina 6 to destroy the Vorlon Planet Killer, which they did with commendable efficiency, before proceeding to provide no other help. At some point the Vorlons managed to get the other First Ones thinking they were complete assholes (presumably the Vorlons weren't always "You will fight and die because we tell you to!" types...)

Eventually, all the First Ones buggered off 'beyond the rim' to leave the young races to their own business, after some verbal humiliation from Sheridan and Lorien.

Its been awhile since I saw the ep, but did Lorien mention anything about other older races that taught the vorlons and shadows or would that have been his race.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-04-13 04:13pm

Melkor wrote: Its been awhile since I saw the ep, but did Lorien mention anything about other older races that taught the vorlons and shadows or would that have been his race.

I'm pretty sure it was his species that did that.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-04-13 04:18pm

As for their abilities, well, the abilities of the Shadows and the Vorlons are the only ones worth mentioning, though five or six large first one ships beat a Vorlon Planet Killer down in short order, there's not much else known about their abilities.

Apparently there's some uber-apocythal thing that has the Walkers of Sigma 957 taking someone's moon away into hyperspace to warn them of the consequences of irritating them further though. However, I'm pretty sure that thing would be laughed at around here.

Another interesting titbit of info is that the Humans, canonically and the Minbari, according to JMS, and even then, with some difficulty apparently, become First One - ish in a million years time.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-04-13 04:50pm

Is there a link to where it mentions the Walkers hurling a moon into hyperspace, or is that like straight from JMS?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-04-13 05:58pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Is there a link to where it mentions the Walkers hurling a moon into hyperspace, or is that like straight from JMS?

It's from some game IIRC. As I said, very Apocrythal.

A better example of uber power is the Shadows allies destruction of the shadow homeworld of Z'ha'dum. Scattering a planet's mass is no mean feat, even if it was some kind of self-destruction.

Melkor · Post by **Melkor** » 2004-04-13 06:15pm

NecronLord wrote:
Melkor wrote: Its been awhile since I saw the ep, but did Lorien mention anything about other older races that taught the vorlons and shadows or would that have been his race.
I'm pretty sure it was his species that did that.

And then when he talked about those already waiting beyond the rim who was he refering to? The same?

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2004-04-13 06:26pm

The moon thing comes from B5Wars, by Agents of Gaming.

from Wars of the Ancients:

"The Lords of Kirish were beaten back into their original territory, the area of space that they occupied before their discovery of hyperspace, but they would not give up. Their research and development departments were constantly striving to come up with new weaponry, with the hope that, one day, they will be able to turn the tide of battle."

"In an effort to illustrate how techologically inferior the Kirishiac were, and how far they would have to come to truly be a threat, the Walkers of Sigma 957 performed a simple feat. A large fleet of Walker vessels, containing ten or twelve Travelers and many lesser-class vessels, appeared in the middle of Kirishiac space without activating a single early warning alarm. The Walkers then surrounded a large moon orbiting one of the Kirishiac's largest colony planets. In a period of time too rapid for the Lords to respond to the invaders, the Walkers activated their jump engines, and vanished into another dimension, taking the moon with them."

"The results on the planet below were instantaneous. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions rocked he surface. The atmosphere, carefully formed over the centures, began to drift away as the planet shifted its axis. The inhabitants were truly doomed."

"And then the Walkers put the moon back. The fleet reappeared and launched the moon along a new orbit, the result of which restored the planetary balance and created a more moderate climate. Finally aware of the level of technology their older brothers possessed, the Kirishiac surrendered immediately."

And then there is this, from the foreword of the B5 Wars Rules compendium.

Making a television series like Babylon 5 requires that you think like an Irish border collie: you have to be detail-oriented, maniacally obsessive, tightly focused and utterly relentless. The massive and intertwined plots and stories aside, there are a million tiny details that you have to get right. How does the centrifugal force work inside B5 to create gravity? how can a Starfury fly backwards while flying forward? What is the gravity on Mars?

You know why you have to get them right? Because if you don't you get letters ("No, no, it should centripedal, not centrifugal, you idiot. And by the way could I have a autographed picture so I can hang it in the basement of my mom's house where I'm living while finishing up my third PhD in quantum mechanics ?")

Sometimes it's difficult to make licensees understand the importance of getting the details right. For a show like B5, this is massively important. As Michelangelo said, "Trifles make perfection, and perfection is no trifle." So you will understand the wonderful experience of working on Agents of Gaming has been throughout the history of B5. they where not only one of the first to come on board and license B5, they instantly understood our desire to get things right in the smallest detail and even took a step further becoming more rigorous than we where.

How rigorous you ask?

When other licensees needed information on ship configurations, we referred them to the AoG books (such as the one you are holding in your hands). When we were in production engaged in the writing of episodes and the mapping of sets, if I was not available to answer a specific question on a technical area covered by AoG.....the people involved where directed to go to the AoG books. Whenever AoG miniatures showed up on set there was always a feeding frenzy of the sort usually associated with an unlucky cow falling into a river full of Piranha.

What I am saying, in this roundabout way is that if you want the Real Deal, if you want accuracy, canonical authority and the best of the best when its comes to Babylon 5 licensing and gaming....you've come to the right place.

Enjoy

J. Michael Straczynski
Creator/Writer/Executive Producer

Babylon 5

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-04-13 08:33pm

I have to say that he's right about the AOG miniatures. They're awesomely detailed and, with the exception of the Shadow battlecrab, very accurate.

m112880 · Post by **m112880** » 2004-04-13 09:36pm

Lorien's species were the very first species but have since died off leaving only Lorien making him the oldest living thing. Coming afterwards you have the Shadows, Vorlons, Walkers, and other. What happen was that after fighting a bunch of wars the first ones decided t leave the galaxy and go behyond the rim leaving the Vorlons and Shadows to look after the younger races untill they themsleves left the galaxy.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-04-13 09:48pm

I was under the impression that the Shadows and the Vorlons were the youngest of the "first ones", weren't they?

Oh, and so Lorien is what, 12, 13 billion years old?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-04-13 10:16pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I was under the impression that the Shadows and the Vorlons were the youngest of the "first ones", weren't they?

They are. The Shadows and Vorlons were the "new kids on the block" compared to the FOs

Oh, and so Lorien is what, 12, 13 billion years old?

Yes, but he doesn't look a day over a billion.

Tragic · Post by **Tragic** » 2004-04-13 10:54pm

I'm pretty sure I remember The Shadows were the 2nd oldest after lorien of course. But I know The Shadows are way older than the vorlons.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-04-13 11:14pm

No, the Vorlons are the older race, and both they and the Shadows postdate the older First Ones by many millions of years.

SpacedTeddyBear · Post by **SpacedTeddyBear** » 2004-04-14 12:12am

No, the Vorlons are the older race, and both they and the Shadows postdate the older First Ones by many millions of years.

No the Shadows are older. When Dr. Franklin asked in one of the episodes "Who are these Shadows", Delenn started to explain that the ' Shadows were old when the ancients were young'.

On top of that, in the Ep. Into the Fire, Lorien explains to Ivanova ( after one of the 1st One's ship appeared) that, "....they're almost as old as the Vorlons, they haven't spoken to...yada yada."

SpacedTeddyBear · Post by **SpacedTeddyBear** » 2004-04-14 12:15am

Lorien's species were the very first species but have since died off leaving only Lorien making him the oldest living thing.

There are other's of Loriens race still out there. His race was initially born immortal. I think in " Into the Fire" he says something that suggest that he was one of THE first ones, yet the last to have been born natually immortal.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-04-14 03:27am

Out of curiosity, is there a B5 encyclopedia somewhere online that's basically a collection of all of the information available on Babylon 5? No mystery unaddressed, no tidbit overlooked, that sort of thing?

Rah · Post by **Rah** » 2004-04-14 04:09am

After Lorien's race the second oldest race is that of the triad is it not?

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-04-14 04:23am

Lorien's people.
Triad.
Walkers (perhaps there is another one above)
Shadows (about 100 million years as an space faring civilization).

Vorlons (FTL for 10 million years).
Torvalus.
Khrissiak.
The Hand.

I am no fiver, so I may be mistaken with some of them or the dates, but I think that the list is fairly accurate.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-04-14 10:27am

Is there some place where they have this information about War of teh Ancients written down? I was looking more for info about exactly who and what the First Ones are and it seems like it goes into rety well there.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-04-14 04:50pm

You would have to buy the sourcebook from Agents of Gaming.

That's not necessarily canon, but it's more info than JMS has ever given us.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-14 05:47pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:You would have to buy the sourcebook from Agents of Gaming.

That's not necessarily canon, but it's more info than JMS has ever given us.

according to Xalev's post the AoG book is canon as far as source material is concerned.

Nephilim · Post by **Nephilim** » 2004-04-14 08:08pm

It goes like this:

1. Lorien
2. Triad
3. Shadows
4. Walkers - Younger than the Shadows, but the most technologically advanced out of all of the First Ones that still use technology.
5. Vorlons
6. Mindriders - The ones that Ivanova met when she was with Lorien. They're the ones that came with the quote "They're almost as old as the Vorlons. They've haven't spoken to anyone outside of their own race in centuries."
7. Torvalus
8. Kirishiac

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-04-15 02:13pm

Hmmm... I thought Lorien said the Shadows were the second oldest. Maybe he forgot about the Triad in his extreme old age?

And, Nephilim, I like the name.

Otah omer ivrit?

I sure don't.