US tactics appalling, say British

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-04-13 04:37pm

Well I think Negotiating is over..

US jets fire on Fallujah
13/04/2004 18:33 - (SA)

Fallujah - US F-15 jet fighters flew a number of sorties over the flashpoint Iraqi city of Fallujah early on Tuesday evening, firing cannons at unidentified targets, a correspondent on the scene said.

The first sorties came at 16:20, followed by at least three more over the next 15 minutes.

The air attacks had been preceded by land-based machine-gun fire.

The correspondent said the situation was very tense, with an official ceasefire frequently being punctuated by gunfire.

Witness Mohammed Aidan said "the Americans fired tank fire at 14:30 and a shell fell on a building housing the teachers' institute in the al-Andalus neighbourhood."

Clashes also broke out in the Al-Jumhuriya quarter, he said.

The confrontations continued for more than half an hour and black smoke billowed into the sky over the area.

Dozens of civilian cars entered Fallujah from the southern Nuaimiya sector as US troops evacuated a checkpoint, he said.

Two US tanks, two armoured carriers and eight four-wheel-drive vehicles were seen leaving the town on dirt roads from Nuaimiya.

Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne, a battalion commander, said that rebels had been "taking advantage of the ceasefire."

He said negotiations for a permanent halt of hostilities were "discussions at the highest level" involving top US civil administrator Paul Bremer, Iraq's interim Governing Council and representatives of Fallujah residents.

Release the Hounds

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-04-13 04:39pm

Looks like the Pentagon has shafted individual soldier education and diverse training in favor of more high-tech gadgets. How surprising.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 04:42pm

theski wrote:Well I think Negotiating is over..

Christ almighty, this is the LAST thing we need right now...

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-04-13 04:43pm

I think we're often too eager to avoid casualties, and thus use multi-million-dollar hammers to crush mites. Smart soldiering and occupation could have prevented this in the first place though.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 04:46pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I think we're often too eager to avoid casualties, and thus use multi-million-dollar hammers to crush mites. Smart soldiering and occupation could have prevented this in the first place though.

The problem being of course that our troops really aren't trained for police duty. The US military is a good enough tool for outright war, but this sort of heavy policing duty is simply not part of the training of these soldiers.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-04-13 04:48pm

Exactly, again proving that Team Bush was high on mescaline before the war, and did precisely zero planning for their contrived war and occupation.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-04-13 04:52pm

Chris OFarrell wrote: Oh yeah. You go US troops. Great combat troops, they have absoloutly ZERO training of sense for the kind of situation they find themselves in today. They've wasted the massive public support they had when they nabbed Saddam.

Dah Dah Dah dumm, and it begins, the cry of of "barbarians" after
the casualty counts for the enemy in Fallujah comes out...so predictable..

The Belmont club nailed this one a few days ago.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-04-13 04:54pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I think we're often too eager to avoid casualties, and thus use multi-million-dollar hammers to crush mites. Smart soldiering and occupation could have prevented this in the first place though.

Germans in WW2:

"We need to patrol a hill were we think the enemy is, lets send a platoon to do it."

Americans in WW2:

"We need to patrol a hill were we think the enemy is, lets get Corps Artillery on the line."

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-04-13 04:57pm

MKSheppard wrote: The Belmont club nailed this one a few days ago.

http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2004_04 ... chive.html

The pitiful accounts of the battle of Fallujah should put paid to the silly press suggestions that the US military is "overwhelmed". The problem is that the terrifying combat efficiency of the Marines may in fact lead to the literal extermination of enemy forces. US authorities, with a longer term end game in mind, are balancing the political outcomes of letting the Marines continue, even in their restrained mode, and taking more US casualties from holding back. When the media learns the full extent of enemy casualties in Fallujah, Kut, Ramadi, Saddam city and elsewhere, the image of the US military will be switched from "hapless" to "bullying" in a millisecond. As pointed out previously, the real problem in this cycle is intel and planning and not so much the shooting. Finding the right targets to hit to advance our political goals is the crucial part. CENTCOM I think, has been trying to use force to shape the situation.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-04-13 05:01pm

Darth Wong wrote: Not surprising in the least. You must remember that they've been taking instruction on how to deal with this sort of thing from the Israelis.

Funny, we've been inflicting 50-1 kill ratios without the other tools for urban
warfare.......like.......bulldozers to clear fire lanes.

The Israelis
are limited by fear of casualties, so they go for the super-cautious mode
of bulldoze bulldoze, while we can afford casualties and go for the super
aggressive mode that inflicts horrific casualties on our enemies.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-04-13 05:05pm

Chris OFarrell wrote: Isolate the location of the hostile battery with millimetre wave radar and have either a Helicopter Gunship fly in and apply precise effective fire (as in cannon, not frigen Hellfire) to neutralise the threat, without fucking destroying half a city block filled with the very people WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LIBERATING FROM HORROR AND DEATH!

Gunships take time to get there. Counterbattery fire takes seconds. A mortar can be moved fast, so rapid response is crucial to killing pesky mortarmen.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-04-13 05:25pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Not surprising in the least. You must remember that they've been taking instruction on how to deal with this sort of thing from the Israelis.
Funny, we've been inflicting 50-1 kill ratios without the other tools for urban
warfare.......like.......bulldozers to clear fire lanes. The Israelis
are limited by fear of casualties, so they go for the super-cautious mode
of bulldoze bulldoze, while we can afford casualties and go for the super
aggressive mode that inflicts horrific casualties on our enemies.

And stiffen Iraqi resistance, Shep. If we're the bad guys, they'll fight us with every breath.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-04-13 05:27pm

Iceberg wrote: And stiffen Iraqi resistance, Shep. If we're the bad guys, they'll fight us with every breath.

Dead people can't fight, you do realize that? And besides, we're not
indiscriminately spraying the entire damn place with 25mm BUshmaster fire.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-04-13 10:10pm

F-15s? Serious? Presumably F-15E Beagles? That'd be like using Su-24Ms against oh wait ....

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-04-14 12:06am

Vympel wrote:F-15s? Serious? Presumably F-15E Beagles? That'd be like using Su-24Ms against oh wait ....

Not necessarly... The article said they were using their cannons.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-14 12:28am

Ma Deuce wrote:
Vympel wrote:F-15s? Serious? Presumably F-15E Beagles? That'd be like using Su-24Ms against oh wait ....
Not necessarly... The article said they were using their cannons.

True, but Strike Eagles are better equipped for ground attack all around. IIRC they don't carry as much cannon ammunition, but I think they're better at pinpointing ground targets.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-04-14 12:51am

I believe the 20mm loadout is the same, a whopping 940 rounds.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-04-14 12:53am

Given the rate of fire, that's not all that much.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-04-14 01:13am

Darth Wong wrote: Look at Chardok's post and notice how he treats all Iraqis as a unified group, making no real distinction between combatant and noncombatant; in his mind, Iraqis are simply "they". A monolithic group to which you can ascribe collective actions ... and collective punishment.

Isn't this exactly what the Iraqis who are kidnapping and killing contractors, reporters and truck drivers are doing?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-14 02:03am

Lord Poe wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Look at Chardok's post and notice how he treats all Iraqis as a unified group, making no real distinction between combatant and noncombatant; in his mind, Iraqis are simply "they". A monolithic group to which you can ascribe collective actions ... and collective punishment.
Isn't this exactly what the Iraqis who are kidnapping and killing contractors, reporters and truck drivers are doing?

And that makes the entire country of Iraq responsible how?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-04-14 02:09am

The Kernel wrote:And that makes the entire country of Iraq responsible how?

Nice job of taking a rock and calling it a planet, Kernel.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-14 02:12am

Lord Poe wrote:
The Kernel wrote:And that makes the entire country of Iraq responsible how?
Nice job of taking a rock and calling it a planet, Kernel.

Sorry, I misread what you originally posted and thought you meant something else.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-04-14 02:32am

MKSheppard wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:I think we're often too eager to avoid casualties, and thus use multi-million-dollar hammers to crush mites. Smart soldiering and occupation could have prevented this in the first place though.
Germans in WW2:

"We need to patrol a hill were we think the enemy is, lets send a platoon to do it."

Americans in WW2:

"We need to patrol a hill were we think the enemy is, lets get Corps Artillery on the line."

Why don't you shove these tiresome false WW2 analogies up your arse, Shep? Not only is the Iraq occupation not comparable to WW2 hostilities between military units of roughly equal capability, we're not talking about empty hills in the middle of Desert Sandbox, Middle of Nowhere, but very small targets in tightly packed residential areas. Do you have any fucking idea just how large an imprint artillery leaves? Yes, it makes mincemeat out of anything that it directly hits, and of everything within a 200 to 400 meter radius as well, which is a rather large distance in residential areas.

Try addressing the points that have been raised, mostly by Chris O'Farrell.

Edi

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-04-14 05:33am

Lord Poe wrote:
Isn't this exactly what the Iraqis who are kidnapping and killing contractors, reporters and truck drivers are doing?

I believe that is why they are called the bad guys.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-04-14 05:46am

Howedar wrote:I believe the 20mm loadout is the same, a whopping 940 rounds.

Its 540 rounds, I'd suspect that if the aircraft where correctly identified, something I wouldn't place any faith in, then either the strike wasn't preplanned and they just brought in the closet aircraft in the form of the F-15C's on patrol, or it was planned and they wanted an F-15E to do the job because its FLIR pod would let it easily pick out the target.